Two handed swords

[Greensleeve]

I'm going to have to disagree with you yet again. Rapier's were most commonly used as a dueling sword, there were military rapiers yes, but they were more or less long-swords that emphasized stabbing, I maintain that your statement was ludicrous. People wear full plate armor in Project Eternity, so the point that "when rapiers saw widespread use people didn't wear much armor" is irrelevant. A long sword requires less finesse because it can slash or stab, and has more weight behind it for hacking blows, it's more versatile and requires less skill, and less knowledge of anatomy to wield effectively, but regardless your entire point is poorly conceived because hell, a broken plastic spoon could inflict a more serious injury than a long sword slice or a rapier stab, depending on what you did with it. TrashMan basically, said what I was going to so I'm not going to restate his point, I will simply end this by saying that knowing a lot about swords, does not mean you know a lot about game design, and lest we forget, this is a game.

 

You're not making any sense. If the opponent is wearing full plate, a longsword is going to do exactly d.ick against it. You can't slash, hack or stab through plate.

So just like with a rapier, you'd have to get the guy on the ground and stick a dagger inbetween the armour.

 

A longsword is a less specialized weapon, sure. That doesn't mean it requires less finesse. (whatever the bloomin' heck that is in your book) That means you don't have to concentrate on just stabbing the guy.

 

But hey, all those guys who entered fencing schools and tried to learn the longsword were just wasting their time. It's enough to just hack at the enemy, you'll manage.

 

Right.

 

(also, a longsword really is a two handed one, so military rapiers certainly weren't longswords in any way)

 

This argument has carried on for far too long as is, but, it is possible to penetrate full plate with a long sword, in fact swords in the late medieval period were crafted with just such a purpose in mind, they just , while versatile, weren't best suited for it. You'd be far better off with a war-hammer or military pick, not a dagger between the armor wherever you got that idea...Furthermore I already explained the term finesse, which you seem to have overlooked, so once again, using a rapier requires you to stab somebody in a specific vital area. Whereas a long sword relies largely on bloodletting, aided by the exertion of combat, regardless of your training if you are relatively strong and you beat somebody over the head with a long-sword they will likely die, if you attempt the same with a rapier...well good luck. Finally your wrong once again in stating that a long sword is a two handed weapon, I don't claim to be an expert, but the distinction has always been clear long-swords are one handed, bastard swords are hand and a half, and greatswords are two-handed. I think your misunderstanding my argument here, my claim was never that martial training in a weapon wouldn't improve your effectiveness with it, I don't think anyone was making that claim. All I was saying is that a long-sword requires less training to be effective and practically none to be lethal, a sword is a sword if you hit somebody with it, they will likely die, technique can help you to be sure, but its a much smaller factor than you are making it out to be.

 

You are aware of that pretty much every single fact you mentioned in this post is incorrect, right? And that there have been sources throughout this entire thread showing you, providing you with information showing how you are wrong?

 

For example, 'bastard sword' is a Victorian term disregarded by basically all credible historians of our time. Long-swords are two-handed swords that were often balanced well enough to be able to be used (clumsily) with one hand. One-handed swords are these days usually referred to as arming swords, but an English master from the 16th century, George Silver, called them short-swords.

 

Edit: Yeah, for more detailed information, check out Merlkir's post above. Great post, linking to some great pages.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Greensleeve

[Tsuga C]

:D sorry, you're wrong in too many places. Almost everything you're repeating over and over is wrong, demonstrably so.

 

Optional reality, brought to you by roleplaying games since, well...since roleplaying games have existed.

[FrostPaw]

I wouldn't underestimate a skilled warrior that has honed his ability over a lifetime of combat with a two handed sword. I've seen some footage of a two handed swordsman, a zweilhander, it's both a reach weapon and a clubbing weapon combining the swing power of a blade with the piercing power of a spear. They often hold above the hilt also, so the length of the sword and it's flexibility is significantly more effective when you shorten the blade. You don't hold it like a long sword when you're in melee combat, you hold it more like a pike you can swing.

 

http://www.landsknecht.com/assets/images/aoc_zweihander.jpg In this example you can see what I'm talking about, if you ignore the primary hilt you actually have a secondary handle further up which is the equivalent of a regular longsword. It leaves no room for a shield because your offhand still holds the primary hilt, so parrying or dodging are your only options but it's certainly not cumbersome in the right hands and with the weight of the weapon it makes any contact more damaging and harder to block. Try parrying a swing from that on a long sword and see how you do!

[jezz555]

I'm going to have to disagree with you yet again. Rapier's were most commonly used as a dueling sword, there were military rapiers yes, but they were more or less long-swords that emphasized stabbing, I maintain that your statement was ludicrous. People wear full plate armor in Project Eternity, so the point that "when rapiers saw widespread use people didn't wear much armor" is irrelevant. A long sword requires less finesse because it can slash or stab, and has more weight behind it for hacking blows, it's more versatile and requires less skill, and less knowledge of anatomy to wield effectively, but regardless your entire point is poorly conceived because hell, a broken plastic spoon could inflict a more serious injury than a long sword slice or a rapier stab, depending on what you did with it. TrashMan basically, said what I was going to so I'm not going to restate his point, I will simply end this by saying that knowing a lot about swords, does not mean you know a lot about game design, and lest we forget, this is a game.

 

You're not making any sense. If the opponent is wearing full plate, a longsword is going to do exactly d.ick against it. You can't slash, hack or stab through plate.

So just like with a rapier, you'd have to get the guy on the ground and stick a dagger inbetween the armour.

 

A longsword is a less specialized weapon, sure. That doesn't mean it requires less finesse. (whatever the bloomin' heck that is in your book) That means you don't have to concentrate on just stabbing the guy.

 

But hey, all those guys who entered fencing schools and tried to learn the longsword were just wasting their time. It's enough to just hack at the enemy, you'll manage.

 

Right.

 

(also, a longsword really is a two handed one, so military rapiers certainly weren't longswords in any way)

 

This argument has carried on for far too long as is, but, it is possible to penetrate full plate with a long sword, in fact swords in the late medieval period were crafted with just such a purpose in mind, they just , while versatile, weren't best suited for it. You'd be far better off with a war-hammer or military pick, not a dagger between the armor wherever you got that idea...Furthermore I already explained the term finesse, which you seem to have overlooked, so once again, using a rapier requires you to stab somebody in a specific vital area. Whereas a long sword relies largely on bloodletting, aided by the exertion of combat, regardless of your training if you are relatively strong and you beat somebody over the head with a long-sword they will likely die, if you attempt the same with a rapier...well good luck. Finally your wrong once again in stating that a long sword is a two handed weapon, I don't claim to be an expert, but the distinction has always been clear long-swords are one handed, bastard swords are hand and a half, and greatswords are two-handed. I think your misunderstanding my argument here, my claim was never that martial training in a weapon wouldn't improve your effectiveness with it, I don't think anyone was making that claim. All I was saying is that a long-sword requires less training to be effective and practically none to be lethal, a sword is a sword if you hit somebody with it, they will likely die, technique can help you to be sure, but its a much smaller factor than you are making it out to be.

 

You are aware of that pretty much every single fact you mentioned in this post is incorrect, right? And that there have been sources throughout this entire thread showing you, providing you with information showing how you are wrong?

 

For example, 'bastard sword' is a Victorian term disregarded by basically all credible historians of our time. Long-swords are two-handed swords that were often balanced well enough to be able to be used (clumsily) with one hand. One-handed swords are these days usually referred to as arming swords, but an English master from the 16th century, George Silver, called them short-swords.

 

Edit: Yeah, for more detailed information, check out Merlkir's post above. Great post, linking to some great pages.

 

Did you miss the part were the IE games were based on AD&D? When I say "the distinction has always been clear long-swords are one handed, bastard swords are hand and a half, and greatswords are two-handed" I mean in games, not in real life. I believe I said I'm not an expert on swords, as if you couldn't tell, the terminology is irrelevant to the point I was making, which is that, you have two handed swords, one handed swords, and something in between. I simply don't see why any further distinction is necessary.

[Grand_Commander13]

And the distinction in first-person shooters has long been that shotguns spray as wide as a man's torso at three meters and that SMGs and assault rifles are less accurate than pistols. What's your point? Do we need to keep making the same mistakes?

[Chilloutman]

I am starting to be tired by this thread and people who still arguing that two handed sword is s**t becasue were used only for choping spears and have same damage as rapier (rofl). I am tired of this discussion about if longsword is two handed or not (it still depend on strength of the wielder). I just hope that devs will not listen to your IMO stupid ideas. We would end up with one sword and rife for entire game. You guys (hardcore history fun/fencers) should go to some history forum or to forum for some 1st person fencing game and stop bothering here where people want to talk about game. (again sorry for offensive meaning) And yes I would like game to be in touch with reality but its still game and its still fantasy. I got much bigger problem with that guns are in

[Merlkir]

I am starting to be tired by this thread and people who still arguing that two handed sword is s**t becasue were used only for choping spears and have same damage as rapier (rofl). I am tired of this discussion about if longsword is two handed or not (it still depend on strength of the wielder). I just hope that devs will not listen to your IMO stupid ideas. We would end up with one sword and rife for entire game. You guys (hardcore history fun/fencers) should go to some history forum or to forum for some 1st person fencing game and stop bothering here where people want to talk about game. (again sorry for offensive meaning) And yes I would like game to be in touch with reality but its still game and its still fantasy. I got much bigger problem with that guns are in

 

Wow, despite not understanding a thing we said, you feel the need to insult us. What a lovely person you are!

[Chilloutman]

1. I am understanding what are you saying

2. I am not insulting anyone

3. Thanks I am

[FlintlockJazz]

I am starting to be tired by this thread and people who still arguing that two handed sword is s**t becasue were used only for choping spears and have same damage as rapier (rofl). I am tired of this discussion about if longsword is two handed or not (it still depend on strength of the wielder). I just hope that devs will not listen to your IMO stupid ideas. We would end up with one sword and rife for entire game. You guys (hardcore history fun/fencers) should go to some history forum or to forum for some 1st person fencing game and stop bothering here where people want to talk about game. (again sorry for offensive meaning) And yes I would like game to be in touch with reality but its still game and its still fantasy. I got much bigger problem with that guns are in

 

This is pure strawman: people are not saying two handed swords are ****, on the contrary they are arguing that they have been badly represented as 'slow and unwieldy' when the opposite is true. We are already giving up a shield or second weapon to use them, so why gimp them further? We are also arguing that the main advantage of using two handers should be reach and flexibility rather than the false stereotype of "Ug ug me strong fighter!" that they have been lumped with.

[Mindtracer]

Meanwhile, the longsword [resp. the one-and-a-half hand sword] that AD&D portrays as a one handed weapon was actually a hybrid weapon, that could be wielded in one hand with a shield, but could also be very effectively wielded in two hands.

 

Well, having practiced medieval European sword fighting I've got to say that carrying a shield while wielding a hand-and-a-half sword won't work out well. The so called "bastard sword" is - though of course lighter than a Zweihänder - too heavy for one hand wielding over a longer period of time. You usually hold it in both hands for maximum weapon stability. (Not so much for better striking power since power in sword fighting derives mainly from you legs movement, i.e. from thrusting you body weight in the opponent's direction by a forward step while striking.)

The benefit of the "half hand" is that (especially when parrying enemy blows and being in close combat situations) you could let go with one hand - and use your free hand for punching the opponent, breaking his balance or disarming him. ;-)

Unfortunately I cannot remember any RPG that has properly implemented such actions so far.