good and bad from Arcanum

[Michael_Galt]

Yeah, it was just really frustrating to see him trying to navigate around... lots of clicking and scrolling of the mouse.  I remember after the 1st one they released, someone mentioned him doing that as well, and specifically mentioned setting the waypoints.  Plus, there are only 2 types of clicks in the stealing/buying/moving items windows.  One results in instantly buying or attempting to steal the item, and with the other, you have to click and drag it into your inventory.  He apparently didn't know that, or forgot, and was quite irritated about having bought an item he didn't want, though apparently did not know why that happened.  I can only hope that will be the first and last time he does that.

 

So granted, one of the consistent complaints about the game was the map.  Personally, I really liked the map, and setting waypoints- that meant I knew where the party would end up going, and didn't have to hope they wouldn't go to the wrong place.  I just wish you could have set more.  I also liked that you could insta-buy/steal, as it saved time, having to click and drag.  But maybe that is just me...

Edited August 8, 2013 by Michael_Galt

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I possess a nearly identical appraisal of Arcanum as the original poster. I would only add a few items. I loved the degree of choice Arcanum had. I felt that all choices presented were rewarding, if in a different manner.  Similarly, I enjoyed how Arcanum didn't hold your hand. The world was yours to explore and would allow you to go a far out of your depth as you had the courage/tenacity to attempt. Very rare these days.

[Michael_Galt]

One random thing I just thought of, having recently played it a bit more- while it was irritating, to an extent, I liked that there were enemies which could actually damage your equipment.  Hit a rock golem with you sword, and you might end up breaking it.  Have a molten arachnid spit on you, and you could lose your armor.  That was awesome- never really seen a game do that before.

[Failion]

I like how the game did a lot of little things. I somewhat enjoyed these things but they were poorly implemented. Combat was unbalanced, stats were unbalanced, some crafting trees were practically useless, merchant system was annoying. PC built on using companions was insanely op. What brought the game the most down was the poor boring map design and limited graphic props tile variety. I score the game a 6.5/10. 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I like how the game did a lot of little things. I somewhat enjoyed these things but they were poorly implemented. Combat was unbalanced, stats were unbalanced, some crafting trees were practically useless, merchant system was annoying. PC built on using companions was insanely op. What brought the game the most down was the poor boring map design and limited graphic props tile variety. I score the game a 6.5/10. 

 

I'll definately agree with several of your opinions. Combat was horrendous--that almost goes without saying. Graphics were lacking even for their time, no doubt. However, one of my biggest grievences was the geography. I found the overall design of the continent to be unimaginative, bland, and have little regard for what land formations create certain habitats.

[SchizotypalVamp]

Forgive me if I am going through points which were already discussed. Once I am through with this post I will read the previous discussion.

 

However, I have played Arcanum many more times than I want to admit, and want to give my unbiased opinion. It's a game I keep coming back to and introducing others to it.

 

So, I loved Arcanum! Why?

-I loved the setting. It was unique and very well done. The seriousness which the Victorian-esque setting was maintained, with both grim  and playful aspects present, combined with its treatment of all of the races and their interactions, and how the graphics complemented all of this, made me want to share it with people. I liked the realism of the tile settings and the models of the bigger things(The caladon palace, the steam engine, Bellogrim's skeleton). I also loved Mazzerin's mystery.

-The sheer amount of options. There were so many dialogue trees with multiple ways to access them and a myriad of ways to complete quests. You could play your character in so many ways that I still don't know all of the options.

-The amount of twists in the main plotline(I also loved the play on the name "Nasrudin"-in fact, I liked all of the "referencing" names.)

-All of the hidden locations and things which you could only pick up or only buy.

 

Really, the game reeked of creativity through every item, quest, and location, and that is why I love it so much. It really created this world which I could come back to multiple times without it feeling stale. So many tiny things were included-like the newspapers in tarant! It really rounded out the world, all of those little things. And, of course, the mountains of sidequests.

 

The story also did not just mention random forgotten kings or queens randomly. Yes, certain authors or people in the cemetary were mentioned once, but I never thought "Why is this famous king/queen's artifact so underpowered" or "This is the best that the ancients could manage?" In fact, when we explored ancient places they were usually quite impressive. How all of the elements of the story and plot came together was very organic-it felt almost like real history.

 

What were its flaws?

-The combat! Real-time was horrible. Turn-based was good, execpt that your followers are so, so stupid.

-How stuck you can get. We see this with Chris's videos. Once you work out how to optimize things the game is pretty smooth sailing, but if it you make a wrong turn in character development or don't quite understand how things work, it gets very frustrating very fast.

-How many bugs there were. A subset of that was that, say, if you killed someone and ressurected them you would still botch a quest. Even if you did certain things it didn't affect characters it seemed like it should have(though there were many times I was surprised at what was affected.)

-Sometimes the game was almost too much like a puzzle game. Not to say that sidequests shouldn't have hard puzzles.

-The restrictions of the the tile set.

 

I hope that you find all of this useful.

[SchizotypalVamp]

Also, people are wrong about the inter-character banter. If you took the dark-elf princess, for example, she would interact with Raven and Loghaire, and Raven interacts with Nasrudin. As a persuasion master I got some extremely interesting conversations out of my party.

 

I don't like that there were plenty of npcs of whom this was not true, but if you picked plot-important characters they were definetly involved! Especially Magnus and Virgil.

 

That was again one of my favorite parts of the game.

[SchizotypalVamp]

One more post! I do really love the music.

 

Also, you really weren't stuck trapsing across the continent if you didn't you want to. Mages had teleport, which I made extensive use of. There are boats and ships. You just have to pay-and I like that. It's realistic, instead of spoon-fed. The frustration of travel gives those options a reason to exist.

 

Honestly, I find that a lot of the complaints about arcanum come either not realizing its dynamics or just playing it wrong. The fact that it was so easy to do  either is one of the greatest weak points of the game. But it's a much better game than a lot of people realize.

 

Also, I personally liked the waypoint system, and the geographies did change depending on where you were. You even had different plants growing in different areas. Mountains had their own habitat, rivers and jungles had their own habitat...

[Michael_Galt]

I will just say that I am replaying Arcanum... again.   At this point, I have lost track of how many times I have replayed the game.  This is the first time I have actually tried to solo an RPG, and it is definitely working, with my brutishly strong, inventor half orc.  Soon, not only will I be a master of melee, but will also own an automaton to do my bidding- excellent.

[jamoecw]

well my favorite thing was how you could make your own class (same thing as the OP mentioned but he didn't put it in the poll) as it was a well done classless system.

 

though i think that how things were done really highlighted its flaws, just look at chris's playthrough, when he got to the bandits he tried to walk to town he was boned even though it made no sense that he could even get to town if he couldn't walk there.  then again with the bandits, he went for a charismatic character, using negotiation and guile to talk his way through situations, yet was flatly denied that aspect due to design of the encounter without any logical reason.  i did a playthrough as a dnd paladin, and so i sold the explosives and didn't invest in the dark arts, so i had to cheese my way through a few unarmed bandits even though my party had equal armor and enchanted swords.  when you leave the town you need a high reputation in addition to a high charisma in order to get the npcs to join up with you, and you can't get very many npcs either, so the first town you get to (shrouded hills) you end up with nearly the max party amount you're allowed, so the other npcs have a relatively high cost, and thus it doesn't benefit you to invest in gaining these npcs as you can't get them until you have gained enough exp with your initial npcs and tackled tough enough situations to make it so that you shouldn't need them by the time you can recruit them.  in other words they give you lots of options (good thing), but then optimize the game towards one set of options, so that using those options is frustrating.  to make the other options playable they added in a few catchall options (like the explosives) and a few neat uses for the options, but on the whole there is a 'right' way to play the game.

 

so to recap:

i love how there is a sandbox approach to the mechanics of the game.

i hate how the game is designed with a 'right' way to play.

[Michael_Galt]

I suppose.  Personally, I highly dislike the fact that you could not gain party members until you held equal level.  I understand the reasoning behind this, but given that the game is not, strictly speaking, linear, it is silly.  I mean, I think that is sort of what you were saying.  But, that being the case, in my experience, the majority are findable at some relatively low levels, so it isn't generally too hard to surmount that obstacle.  Because I was playing as a genius inventor fighter half-orc, I didn't want any followers unless they were also half-orc or technologists.  I kept Virgil around because he seemed like he would be useful, as my character is from another continent, and this guy has a vested interest in protecting me and seems reasonably street-wise, which is handy.  Other than that, didn't have an interest in other NPCs (or an ability to gain them).  But, with my smooth-talking commander sharp-shooter, if they had a pulse and were useful, I wanted them, as I was confident I could essentially dictate what they would do and so had a veritable army.  My elf mage only liked magic users or full or half elves.  So, as a result, I didn't have a huge party, though I could have had more had I wanted.  While most of the NPCs were not interesting after you gained them, I did appreciate that you could build the party that you wanted with what they offered. 

[oaktownbrown]

inspired by MCA's playthough, i recently started playing arcanum. things i like:

 

1. ppls' reaction varies based on your reputation, gender, race, magic/tech abilities, beauty, your clothing, etc. 

 

2. NPC's ability to resist spells (e.g., charm, stun) seems to be based on how various factors. 

 

3. item bonuses depend on your tech/magicka affinity

 

4. the dialog is generally good. 

 

5. companions have a variety of skills. i like that: you meet them in your travels, the number you can recruit is based on your charisma, and who you can recruit is based on your reputation (and your tech/magick alignment and some quests). i like that you can ask them to wait somewhere for you, recruit another follower, then later re-recruit the follower you'd ditched earlier. that's a big plus IMO.

 

magick vs tech

 

i like the idea of this: a world where the new forces of technology are battling the old forces of magicka. it creates an interesting world where two factions - neither of who are inherently good nor evil - have very conflicting interests. i also like the way it's implemented. you can do both but if you do, you'll never be as good at tech as someoene who doesn't use magicka. (ditto for magicka.)

 

 

OK: 

 

so far, the quests seem ok. they're neither particularly interesting nor horrible. 

 

i like the idea that there is economic, political, and racial conflict. but, so far at least, that's not really implemented in the game, except as NPC reactions to the player's race and the labor conflict in Tarant. it seems like a really good idea that needed to be fleshed out more in order to work well. 

 

 

don't like: 

 

1. the map and travel

 

2. combat. i usually used TB but i also tried RT. it's not good, even for an RPG. the only challenging fights i had were the monsters (levels 20 - 30 IIRC) at Liam's Workshop when i was at levels 5 - 16. (i was grinding bc i wanted to get teleport so i didn't have to deal with the map any more.) that was especially challenging because i hadn't remembered about the F5 key and often, after killing the one or two monsters i'd lured away, Virgil would go right to the portal and try to kill all the monsters there. "nooooooooooooo! i want you as a healbot, not a warrior! especially when we're outranked and outnumbered." 

 

even when the combat was challenging (mostly bc of Virgil's bad moves and my not realizing i could use the F5 key), it was more tedious than fun. 

 

3. the companions seem boring. so far, they don't have much personality or much of a story. 

 

4. training was instantaneous. really? i just pay you a few coins and suddenly i'm an apprentice? and, for many skills, there are several trainers in every town. very silly IMO. 

 

5. it's too easy to steal a shopkeeper's entire inventory. it's even worse that no one is supspicious of you the next day. e.g., i arrived in shrouded hills and cleaned out the entire inventory of every shopkeeper during the night. the next night, the inventory is full again (so i steal it all again) and no one in the town seems the least bit suspicious, even if i do that for 10 nights in a row. you'd think the town would be a bit more wary of a newcomer who happened to arrive just before all the stores were cleaned out each night. 

 

6. if you get caught pickpocketing or trying to steal (e.g., when breaking in), the target becomes immediately hostile and tries to kill you. further, i can't get my companion to distract them while i pickpocket them. those are common faults of RPGs but they're still a bad way to handle pickpocketing. 

[Michael_Galt]

 

inspired by MCA's playthough, i recently started playing arcanum. things i like:

 

1. ppls' reaction varies based on your reputation, gender, race, magic/tech abilities, beauty, your clothing, etc. 

 

2. NPC's ability to resist spells (e.g., charm, stun) seems to be based on how various factors. 

 

3. item bonuses depend on your tech/magicka affinity

 

4. the dialog is generally good. 

 

5. companions have a variety of skills. i like that: you meet them in your travels, the number you can recruit is based on your charisma, and who you can recruit is based on your reputation (and your tech/magick alignment and some quests). i like that you can ask them to wait somewhere for you, recruit another follower, then later re-recruit the follower you'd ditched earlier. that's a big plus IMO.

 

magick vs tech

 

i like the idea of this: a world where the new forces of technology are battling the old forces of magicka. it creates an interesting world where two factions - neither of who are inherently good nor evil - have very conflicting interests. i also like the way it's implemented. you can do both but if you do, you'll never be as good at tech as someoene who doesn't use magicka. (ditto for magicka.)

 

 

OK: 

 

so far, the quests seem ok. they're neither particularly interesting nor horrible. 

 

i like the idea that there is economic, political, and racial conflict. but, so far at least, that's not really implemented in the game, except as NPC reactions to the player's race and the labor conflict in Tarant. it seems like a really good idea that needed to be fleshed out more in order to work well. 

 

 

don't like: 

 

1. the map and travel

 

2. combat. i usually used TB but i also tried RT. it's not good, even for an RPG. the only challenging fights i had were the monsters (levels 20 - 30 IIRC) at Liam's Workshop when i was at levels 5 - 16. (i was grinding bc i wanted to get teleport so i didn't have to deal with the map any more.) that was especially challenging because i hadn't remembered about the F5 key and often, after killing the one or two monsters i'd lured away, Virgil would go right to the portal and try to kill all the monsters there. "nooooooooooooo! i want you as a healbot, not a warrior! especially when we're outranked and outnumbered." 

 

even when the combat was challenging (mostly bc of Virgil's bad moves and my not realizing i could use the F5 key), it was more tedious than fun. 

 

3. the companions seem boring. so far, they don't have much personality or much of a story. 

 

4. training was instantaneous. really? i just pay you a few coins and suddenly i'm an apprentice? and, for many skills, there are several trainers in every town. very silly IMO. 

 

5. it's too easy to steal a shopkeeper's entire inventory. it's even worse that no one is supspicious of you the next day. e.g., i arrived in shrouded hills and cleaned out the entire inventory of every shopkeeper during the night. the next night, the inventory is full again (so i steal it all again) and no one in the town seems the least bit suspicious, even if i do that for 10 nights in a row. you'd think the town would be a bit more wary of a newcomer who happened to arrive just before all the stores were cleaned out each night. 

 

6. if you get caught pickpocketing or trying to steal (e.g., when breaking in), the target becomes immediately hostile and tries to kill you. further, i can't get my companion to distract them while i pickpocket them. those are common faults of RPGs but they're still a bad way to handle pickpocketing. 

 

 

Yeah, totally forgot that how you are dressed actually matters- being naked does not help, even if you are beautiful (though maybe if you were naked, beautiful, and had the background of attracting the other sex...)

 

I agree, the cultural/racial undertones could have been fleshed out a bit more.   But, in reality, there are lots of books you can find that talk about it.  There are a couple people in the university area that talk about it.  Some of the NPCs will also contribute to the discussion.  I actually feel it was really well done, especially as it was not a necessary component of the game, or what it was advertising itself on.

 

Almost everyone will say combat.  There are no combat feats or skills.  The reality is, it is extremely simplistic.  How much damage does your weapon do, do you have the stats necessary, have you been trained to get bonuses, and what is their corresponding stats and armor. 

 

Like I said, the companions don't have much going for them, outside of what you initially learn from them. A few will contribute advise here and there, but there is no inter-party banter or particularly interesting things to do with them after.  I feel they just didn't have enough time and resources to go and really make them what they could have. 

 

The thieving mechanic was both great and horrible, for exactly the reasons you mentioned.  Actually, there is a lot of talk about this very thing in one of the threads in the Mechanics section, about pickpocketing, with that type of issue being addressed.

 

On a separate note, while I'm not going to do it, an awesome build would be to go high charisma and persuasion and then make a master fighter character with the educator background.  With the educator background, you can train your companions to be apprentices and experts (one level of specialization below yours).  So, if you mastered melee and dodge, you could have every fighter in your party as an expert in those... and if you had a party of fighters, having 3-4 fighters that are experts would really help.  Or, you could hypothetically use it for a party of "thieves", so everyone would be an expert in prowling and backstab...

[SchizotypalVamp]

Actually, the racial conflict may not be "in your face" at first-though you can find books in the library, etc, but there are quests based on it and it comes up much more the later you get into the game. If you play as a disliked race it comes up pretty early, though.

 

Also, the training becomes harder the more levels you go up. There are a handful of experts(maybe 3-4) in the world, and only one master-wherin you need to complete an interesting quest in order to gain the training. Eg, the quest for master of persuasion *spoilers* involves negotiating an agreement between Tarant and Caladon so that Caladon can join the industrial kingdom(and you can be bribed and commit subterfuge). 

[Michael_Galt]

Honestly, while I truly hope that PE and Torment are very successful, what I want is another steampunk RPG in the vein of Arcanum.  Not necessarily Victorian Age, but around there.  Maybe early 1900s ish.  Or, even better yet, sort of a mix of Fallout and Arcanum.  Basically, there was an apocalypse, and you have isolated communities struggling to survive.  There are enclaves of dwarves and human and gnomish technologists, as well as groups of elves and humans dedicated to magic.  Each blames the other for the chaos, and there are some deep-seated animosities alive in the world.  The orcs, half-orcs and half-ogres were all sort of caught in the middle.  Some remain essential slaves of many technologists, whereas others escaped and formed large warlord bans that hate the technologists (mostly humans, though by default, they have an inherent distrust of all technologists).  They don't love the elves or magic users either, but don't actively target them for raids or attacks when the opportunity presents itself.  Maybe there are a limited number of groups/areas where both magic users and technologists try to coexist, but it is a strained relationship...  That would be awesome.

[oaktownbrown]

 

I agree, the cultural/racial undertones could have been fleshed out a bit more.   But, in reality, there are lots of books you can find that talk about it.  There are a couple people in the university area that talk about it.  Some of the NPCs will also contribute to the discussion.  I actually feel it was really well done, especially as it was not a necessary component of the game, or what it was advertising itself on.

. . . .

 

On a separate note, while I'm not going to do it, an awesome build would be to go high charisma and persuasion and then make a master fighter character with the educator background. . . . Or, you could hypothetically use it for a party of "thieves", so everyone would be an expert in prowling and backstab...

yes, i'm still near the beginning of the game so it's not surprising that i don't know much about the world yet. i hope the cultural and racial aspects (and other elements of world lore) get better. the manual was really good in that respect: it added information and flavor that set the tone for the game even before i started playing. unfortunately, it's not easy for me to quickly find the information i'm looking for. i wish they would have had the manual itself and a quick information guide or something. even a good index at the beginning of the manual would be a big improvement IMO. (i'm using the PDF at Sierra's website. maybe the printed manual had an index.)

 

i do like the little touches that make the world more interesting e.g., the street signs, windows and chests jamming if you fail to pick the lock, the newspapers, the much larger variety of shops in Tarant than in Shrouded Hills or Dernholm, etc.  those are well done and add a lot for me. 

 

is backstabbing a passive ability? because i'm not sure when/if i'm ever backstabbing. 

 

does the fighting get significantly harder later in the game? i'm guessing it must if it would be useful to have several companions (other than as mules). also, is there a way to get your companions to backstab? is there a way to get them to help you in thieving or other actions? 

[oaktownbrown]

Actually, the racial conflict may not be "in your face" at first-though you can find books in the library, etc, but there are quests based on it and it comes up much more the later you get into the game. If you play as a disliked race it comes up pretty early, though.

 

Also, the training becomes harder the more levels you go up. There are a handful of experts(maybe 3-4) in the world, and only one master-wherin you need to complete an interesting quest in order to gain the training. Eg, the quest for master of persuasion *spoilers* involves negotiating an agreement between Tarant and Caladon so that Caladon can join the industrial kingdom(and you can be bribed and commit subterfuge). 

 

 

yes, i'm near the beginning of the game so it's not that surprising that i haven't learned that much about the history, culture, various conflicts, etc. i hope i learn a lot more as i get into the game bc the world, the lore, the culture, etc. are one of the most important things for me in an RPG.

 

one question: when the books refer to "man" do they mean only humans, the median races, civilized people, or what? or does that vary depending on the author (e.g., some groups mean the largest grouping whereas other groups mean a smaller subset)? 

 

i'm glad that training gets harder. i wish there would have been some quests (or, e.g., a requirement for positive reputation with the faction who trained you) even at the apprentice level or even some time passing as you were becoming an apprentice. it sounds like there are interesting quests to gain the master level in various skills. that's good. but do you have to take a particular side in an ongoing conflict to complete the master persuasion quest (or other master skills quests)? if so, is there a good in-game reason why only ppl who take that side can become extremely persuasive/(master other skills) (or, e.g,  is it a way to railroad ppl along one path/arbitrarily restrict gameplay options)? 

[Lephys]

Basically, there was an apocalypse, and you have isolated communities struggling to survive.

I would call it... STEAMPUNCALYPSE!!!

[jamoecw]

I suppose.  Personally, I highly dislike the fact that you could not gain party members until you held equal level.  I understand the reasoning behind this, but given that the game is not, strictly speaking, linear, it is silly.  I mean, I think that is sort of what you were saying.  But, that being the case, in my experience, the majority are findable at some relatively low levels, so it isn't generally too hard to surmount that obstacle.  Because I was playing as a genius inventor fighter half-orc, I didn't want any followers unless they were also half-orc or technologists.  I kept Virgil around because he seemed like he would be useful, as my character is from another continent, and this guy has a vested interest in protecting me and seems reasonably street-wise, which is handy.  Other than that, didn't have an interest in other NPCs (or an ability to gain them).  But, with my smooth-talking commander sharp-shooter, if they had a pulse and were useful, I wanted them, as I was confident I could essentially dictate what they would do and so had a veritable army.  My elf mage only liked magic users or full or half elves.  So, as a result, I didn't have a huge party, though I could have had more had I wanted.  While most of the NPCs were not interesting after you gained them, I did appreciate that you could build the party that you wanted with what they offered. 

basic break down of character viability:

 

well there are 13 areas to spend your points on:

str, dex, per, con, will, int, bea, cha, HP, fatigue, spells, tech, skills

 

melee - str, dex, skills = 3 (if you lack points in melee skill you injure yourself and thus dex and skill is highly required)

tech - int, tech = 2 (can't use on its own, needs to be hybrid with a combat capable group other than mage)

ranged - per, dex, skills = 3 (low damage output, low survival by itself, especially at low levels when you crit fail and drop weapon wasting time needed to kite)

mage - int, will, spells = 3 (potions and spells get stronger as you progress down this path, spells can boost attributes and replace some skills)

rogue - str, dex, per, skills = 4 (risky damage output, especially at low levels when getting the backstab in is a gamble)

diplomat - bea, cha, will, int, skills = 5 (can't use on its own, needs alignment and level to gain most followers)

 

resources needed for each general character type:

melee - gold, loot, HP, fatigue = 4 (needs gold to purchase equipment, repair equipment, and for training, has highest uses of HP of any group)

tech - gold, parts = 2 (needs gold for components and a lot more for schematics, may generate gold though, may find and use junk for parts)

ranged - gold, ammo, loot, fatigue = 4 (needs gold for ammo, repair, and training, needs to move a lot in combat to kite enemies)

mage - fatigue = 1 (spells cost fatigue, will need lots of it, only group that needs it more than melee)

rogue - loot, gold, lockpicks = 3 (gains lots of loot and gold when good enough, may have to be a melee class when failure happens)

diplomat - levels, alignment, follower, dialog choices = 4 (you start with nothing and thus can't use the skills)

 

gold requirement for each general character type:

melee - needs to buy armour and weapons, repair said items, and pay for a few select trainings

tech - if not built to make money then will need high income from somewhere to pay for parts and schematics, otherwise generates gold

ranged - needs to keep buying ammo, needs to buy and repair weapons, and pay for a few trainings

mage - none

rogue - buy lockpicks, buy and repair weapons, pay for lots of training

diplomat - arm and equip followers, can haggle for extra money, pay for some training

 

non violent gains:

melee - none

tech - produce items, one quest (it is possible without the schematic, but easier)

ranged - none

mage - 2 quests, free companions, poor man's lockpicking, free attribute gains (attribute gains are sustained spells, likewise the companions, lockpicking and companions have consequences, quest info possible through other means)

rogue - anything with items and gold can be yours (bad consequences if you fail)

diplomat - sell more, pay less, more dialog/quest options (dialog and quest options may be negated by other actions)

 

by using the above you can see how difficult a character combination can be even before playing.  going strong diplomat from the get go is pretty hard to do with the hefty CP drain and no real immediate benefits.  mage has lots of utility and only requires an average or less amount of CP, as it starts out viable and gets stronger it is also a far easier path than say a ranged tech user.  had the devs broke things down and balanced things for the different themes you might see more immediate uses for diplomacy, and a weaker starting spell selection.  pretty much the way the game is made you pick if you are going to back tech or magic from the get go if you want an easy playthrough.

[Michael_Galt]

snip

i do like the little touches that make the world more interesting e.g., the street signs, windows and chests jamming if you fail to pick the lock, the newspapers, the much larger variety of shops in Tarant than in Shrouded Hills or Dernholm, etc.  those are well done and add a lot for me. 

 

is backstabbing a passive ability? because i'm not sure when/if i'm ever backstabbing. 

 

does the fighting get significantly harder later in the game? i'm guessing it must if it would be useful to have several companions (other than as mules). also, is there a way to get your companions to backstab? is there a way to get them to help you in thieving or other actions? 

 

 

Backstabbing is a passive ability- you just have to be behind them, though I don't believe directly behind them is necessary.  You'll see the difference if you put it in turn based, which I highly recommend for that type of character (so you can actually get behind people and stay behind them).  Just stab them from the front, and then work your way around them, stabbing them, until you see the amount of damage go up.

 

I don't know if it is about it getting way harder based on where you are in the game or not.  It really depends on who/what you are fighting.  There are a lot of really tough undead, 90% of which are not necessary to fight, if you follow the main storyline.  There are plenty of golems and golem-like creatures in the mountains that are plenty tough- all of them can damage your armor and you can break your weapons on them if you aren't careful.  There are some areas with lots of archers that can really whittle you down. 

 

In regards to needing companions, it depends on your build.  As a thief character, I would recommend it.  You aren't going to be strong enough to fight lots of different things on your own and it will be slow and painful.  Depending on the type of technologist or magic user you played, it is possible to solo, for the most part, but still a good idea to have at least 1-2 other companions, to carry stuff (as it does have weight). 

 

Backstabbing?  No, the NPCs aren't smart enough for that.  You can't really manage their behavior when they are in combat, and that can be frustrating.  There are no scripts for them that you can select.  I have watched Virgil let himself get killed many times, when he has advanced healing spells and plenty of "mana", and just stand and keep fighting when he doesn't have plenty of mana and should be running away.  There are some commands you can issue in combat using the right click function on their portrait, but they aren't overly useful.  In regards to lock-picking or pick-pocketing, if you want to do it, you had best make your character good at it, because there are only a few NPCs which are capable, and it won't be a while until they are accessible (and none will pickpocket).

[Michael_Galt]

snip

yes, i'm near the beginning of the game so it's not that surprising that i haven't learned that much about the history, culture, various conflicts, etc. i hope i learn a lot more as i get into the game bc the world, the lore, the culture, etc. are one of the most important things for me in an RPG.

 

one question: when the books refer to "man" do they mean only humans, the median races, civilized people, or what? or does that vary depending on the author (e.g., some groups mean the largest grouping whereas other groups mean a smaller subset)? 

 

i'm glad that training gets harder. i wish there would have been some quests (or, e.g., a requirement for positive reputation with the faction who trained you) even at the apprentice level or even some time passing as you were becoming an apprentice. it sounds like there are interesting quests to gain the master level in various skills. that's good. but do you have to take a particular side in an ongoing conflict to complete the master persuasion quest (or other master skills quests)? if so, is there a good in-game reason why only ppl who take that side can become extremely persuasive/(master other skills) (or, e.g,  is it a way to railroad ppl along one path/arbitrarily restrict gameplay options)? 

 

 

Trust me, there is plenty of that after you get to Tarant (though not so much in the other cities).  Similar to the level in BG 2 or the Elder Scrolls.

 

They are usually referring to humans.  You will find out if you investigate it more, there is all sorts of information regarding the distinction between the races, natural, supernatural and selective

 

The training isn't faction based- it is only individuals.  When you think about it, being an apprentice at melee doesn't mean much- anyone that has trained for a bit could teach you.  An expert requires training by someone that has put a fair amount of time into that skill/profession.  A master is someone uncommonly skilled, that has tested their abilities countless times and honed it to an art- so I think the access makes sense, for the most part.  But, whether they train you to mastery depends on whether you will do what they want or not.  If you don't want to do it, you can't earn mastery.  You can have the skill maxed out, but they won't teach you their "secrets", so you will be stuck at expert level.  And for almost every one of the master quests, there are a couple ways you can complete it. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

To be honest, other than the backgrounds the less taken from Arcanum the better.

[Michael_Galt]

 

basic break down of character viability:

 

well there are 13 areas to spend your points on:

str, dex, per, con, will, int, bea, cha, HP, fatigue, spells, tech, skills

 

melee - str, dex, skills = 3 (if you lack points in melee skill you injure yourself and thus dex and skill is highly required)

tech - int, tech = 2 (can't use on its own, needs to be hybrid with a combat capable group other than mage)

ranged - per, dex, skills = 3 (low damage output, low survival by itself, especially at low levels when you crit fail and drop weapon wasting time needed to kite)

mage - int, will, spells = 3 (potions and spells get stronger as you progress down this path, spells can boost attributes and replace some skills)

rogue - str, dex, per, skills = 4 (risky damage output, especially at low levels when getting the backstab in is a gamble)

diplomat - bea, cha, will, int, skills = 5 (can't use on its own, needs alignment and level to gain most followers)

 

resources needed for each general character type:

melee - gold, loot, HP, fatigue = 4 (needs gold to purchase equipment, repair equipment, and for training, has highest uses of HP of any group)

tech - gold, parts = 2 (needs gold for components and a lot more for schematics, may generate gold though, may find and use junk for parts)

ranged - gold, ammo, loot, fatigue = 4 (needs gold for ammo, repair, and training, needs to move a lot in combat to kite enemies)

mage - fatigue = 1 (spells cost fatigue, will need lots of it, only group that needs it more than melee)

rogue - loot, gold, lockpicks = 3 (gains lots of loot and gold when good enough, may have to be a melee class when failure happens)

diplomat - levels, alignment, follower, dialog choices = 4 (you start with nothing and thus can't use the skills)

 

gold requirement for each general character type:

melee - needs to buy armour and weapons, repair said items, and pay for a few select trainings

tech - if not built to make money then will need high income from somewhere to pay for parts and schematics, otherwise generates gold

ranged - needs to keep buying ammo, needs to buy and repair weapons, and pay for a few trainings

mage - none

rogue - buy lockpicks, buy and repair weapons, pay for lots of training

diplomat - arm and equip followers, can haggle for extra money, pay for some training

 

non violent gains:

melee - none

tech - produce items, one quest (it is possible without the schematic, but easier)

ranged - none

mage - 2 quests, free companions, poor man's lockpicking, free attribute gains (attribute gains are sustained spells, likewise the companions, lockpicking and companions have consequences, quest info possible through other means)

rogue - anything with items and gold can be yours (bad consequences if you fail)

diplomat - sell more, pay less, more dialog/quest options (dialog and quest options may be negated by other actions)

 

by using the above you can see how difficult a character combination can be even before playing.  going strong diplomat from the get go is pretty hard to do with the hefty CP drain and no real immediate benefits.  mage has lots of utility and only requires an average or less amount of CP, as it starts out viable and gets stronger it is also a far easier path than say a ranged tech user.  had the devs broke things down and balanced things for the different themes you might see more immediate uses for diplomacy, and a weaker starting spell selection.  pretty much the way the game is made you pick if you are going to back tech or magic from the get go if you want an easy playthrough.

 

 

Wow, that was a lot.  I'm not in direct disagreement, in general.  The thing is, I have played as every one of those characters. 

 

I just recently played as a high charisma warrior with 3 other (could have been 4) warrior followers.  I didn't have a problem securing enough money or equipment for my party, though I did get lucky a few times.  On that note, diplomats really don't need beauty and willpower.  Technically, they don't even need intelligence, but that is depending on who you are talking to.  On the basic level, all you need is charisma, and it doesn't take long to max that.  But, when you are making a diplomat, it is quite easy to also make a technologist or mage, since they need the same stats (to be highly effective), so why wouldn't you do it?

 

If you make a good fighter build, you won't be needing healing much, or potions for fatigue- especially if you have a healer in your group (which there are a fair number of options for- I can think of at least 3 which are accessible almost immediately after you leave the first town).

 

Playing as a tech character is perfectly legitimate, almost any way you want to do it.  Do you want to be a regular fighter?  Well, some of the tech weapons do the absolute most damage of anything in game.  Do you want to be an archer?  The basic compound bow is pretty powerful, and the incendiary bow is ridiculous.  Do you want to be a "gunslinger" or sniper?  There are a huge variety of guns you can make and use.  And no, you don't have to have any combat skills, if you don't want (though making any build without them would be silly).  If you build your character correctly, you can very rapidly have the absolute best tech equipment (Tesla rod, regenerative jacket, cure all, reanimator, fire obstruction, etc), which is much better than the majority of what you can buy in normal stores for pretty much the entire game.  You can even build a mechanical arachnid before level 10, which is pretty powerful.

 

If you are a technologist, learning how to make bullets makes acquiring bullets easy and cheap.  Every technologist can make things which can be sold to obtain money, especially as most components are cheap.  You talk about the basic healing or stamina medicines, and that is 19 and 34 gp for each unit.  So, if you spend 5 days doing nothing except churning those out and selling them, which is quite easy, you can make almost 1,000 gp, which is fairly respectable, given how much they cost to make and how easy it is to acquire what you need to make them.  You can sell the shocking staff for almost 900 gp, and it is also easy to make.  Most of the guns will earn you far more than they cost to make, even without good haggle skills.

 

Ranged weapons almost never get damaged, so that really isn't a cost.  And, when you say ranged, I assume you mean "bow".  I agree, being a bow user early isn't easy.  But, being a "throwing" fighter is.  There are plenty of good, relatively cheap, and effective, throwing weapons.  I made a throwing technologist that was constantly lobbing around grenades- pretty damn effective.  Also, almost no cost associated with a throwing fighter, as the weapons return to him (which, I actually think, is unbalanced and unrealistic, but that is how the game plays).

 

Rogues.  Generally agree that they aren't very good in combat, especially at low levels.  It is definitely a more difficult build to play.  But, it is also quite easy to build a good thief that can very early on, steal more than everything he will possibly need, and make TONS of money, which gives them a huge advantage over other types of builds.  You only buy lockpicks once, and that cost a whopping 45 gp.

 

Mages.  Definitely the "easiest" default way to go.  If you concentrate on a couple of spell schools early, you can become quite powerful.  But, you have to know how to play them.  If you never hit anything, it is hard to gain experience.  If you don't gain experience, you don't level.  For instance- you can disarm everyone, slow and blind them so your followers can kill them easily- works like a charm.  But, what experience did you get out of it?  Almost nothing.  You can open all the locks you want, but no experience will come of it.  You can heal everyone constantly, so they will never die- great!  But, again, no experience.  The only way you get experience as a mage is to be doing damage to things.  I think that is silly, really, but that is how it is.  And the damage spells usually are not "cheap" when it comes to mana.  Depending on how you built your character, you will likely need to buy mana potions, which while they are not super expensive, are not cheap either, especially if you need a lot of them.

 

I will say, for sure, that yes, you need to have a pretty decent idea of where you want you character to be at x, y, and z levels, otherwise your build probably won't work too well.  Also, I know where I can find everything in the game (in terms of trainers, and what cities have and sell what), so it is "easy" to build the right character and do the right stuff to maximize that character- meta gaming.  Chances are, your first, or even second, playthroughs will not be super smooth, because you really have to figure out how the whole system works, and what you can do with different types of characters.  But to me, that is the point.  I know how I can play as a mage- how about as a technologist?  I know how I can play as a fighter, how about a thief?  There are just so many possibilities, with very different outcomes, all of which can be wildly successful.

[jamoecw]

well the groups are pretty general, tech was just building things, ranged was all ranged including firearms.  you pretty much echoed what i said aside from not needing any combat skills.  i don't think you can get out of shrouded hills with just your 2 companions and all your points in charisma and persuasion.  willpower is needed for haggle, if you aren't getting haggle then no reason for willpower as a noncom diplomat.  if you aren't looking for better dialog options then no reason for beauty.  intelligence was listed as it can't be used as a dump stat (below 5 means poor dialog choices).  aside from explosives, which is pretty much the 'anyone' method of balancing encounters.

[Grape_You_In_The_Mouth]

The awesome ****ing story.  The reactivity and open-ness to the game is great, but I have no interest in games with all the RPG traits and a bad story.  There were some points during the game when I read books necessary for the plot and thought "Good God this is a great ****ing game."  Same deal with Fallout 1 for me.  Fallout 3?  ****in' blows.