Minimizing Save scumming. Or is it too much of a hassle?

[metiman]

Ironman mode is for hardcore players who think there is NEVER a good reason for saving during inopportune times in the game, I don't want to go that far. it shouldn't be one extreme or the other.

 

Can you give an example of what you consider to be a good reason for saving? If you had reason to believe that nearly every battle in the game was going to be challenging enough to kill half your party on your first attempt would it change your position at all?

[JFSOCC]

Ironman mode is for hardcore players who think there is NEVER a good reason for saving during inopportune times in the game, I don't want to go that far. it shouldn't be one extreme or the other.

 

Can you give an example of what you consider to be a good reason for saving? If you had reason to believe that nearly every battle in the game was going to be challenging enough to kill half your party on your first attempt would it change your position at all?

I'll offer a few: A good reason for saving is if your gaming session is at an end, nobody plays a game that last 60 hours or more in one go (well, maybe some people do)

so when you are done and want to go do something else, that's an excellent reason to save. I believe since this game won;t be one constant encounter that this is easily doable between encounters.

Another good place to save is before an encounter you know is going to be tough, (yes) but before you've entered combat. Because the challenge as a whole wouldn't change before saving. If you save long enough before an encounter the debuff would wear off before the encounter takes place. Which means that it is a minor inconvenience if you play the way most people (I expect) play. However, if you save every time you enter combat, just to be sure, you'll quickly be discouraged to do so. So it would only discourage extremes. No tactical or gameplay options will be removed. And if you do decide to save scum, challenges don't become stale because they are too easy, because you've effectively increased your own difficulty.

Another good reason to save is after you've made significant progress which you do not want to lose. I don't want to play something over and over again because I couldn't save. So, directly after an encounter is also an excellent time to save.

 

1)Drawbacks to save scumming (but still be able to save anywhere)

 

 

Well I have misformulated my question: this drawback for saving anywhere anytime, do you want it to be:

 

1) an option that can be toggled off (thus making save scumming drawback free if the player deactivates the feature) ?

 

2) or a feature that cannot be toggled off ?

I responded the way I did because I fear it presented a false choice.

I would have be a feature that can be toggled off, perhaps based on difficulty settings, but I want to make clear that even if this feature is toggled on, it doesn't limit saving, just offers momentary drawbacks. also, upon load, not upon save.

so, option 1) comes closest, but more nuanced that than.

Edited October 15, 2012 by JFSOCC

[Loki Ador]

Alright, that is clearer now.

 

As long as it is an option, I can accept your proposal. I would probably not use it, but if some people happen to enjoy PE more with this kind of optionnal feature, why not ?

 

Customizing and fine tunning of gameplay is always a good thing for me

[HangedMan]

Edit: Why the hell do I feel that I must defend my character? I was hoping for constructive discussion.

 

I don't think you will get a constructive discussion as long as your argument boils down to "anyone who disagrees with me obviously doesn't know what's good for them." (And, seriously, can we drop the 'saving your game is cheating' argument? It's not doing anyone any favours.)

 

I'm still waiting for anyone to explain how saving anywhere will inherently ruin the game, the game design, and everyone's enjoyment of the game. Last time we asked, the response was something like "oh, you can't explain how, but it does". Sorry, but that's not good enough.

I'm sorry if I come across as arrogant, that is certainly not my intent. I do feel frustrated as I fear my argument is not coming across; I am after all, using arguments, despite being told that I'm not. Must be bad communication on my part.

The argument that saving anywhere will ruin the game is a simple one: You kill the challenge of the game if you can retry every encounter, whether combat or dialogue, because you are certain to always overcome every obstacle, without having to change your behaviour. You don't have to get better at tactics, you don't have to moderate your words to get the best result. You just have to brute force all the possibilities and then pick the one that yields the desired results the best way.

Rewards will lose all meaning, since you will always have the best of the best, challenges will lose all meaning, because you will always overcome them so exceptionally well.

everything will go your way. always. all.the.time.

I suppose that in the information age which is upon us this is the case anyway, where everyone can look up solutions online.

In the end I can't prevent anyone from playing how they choose, and I wouldn't seek to. I would however like to find a way to encourage players to enjoy the challenge, rather than seek to breeze through.

perhaps coupling mechanics like summoning sickness to difficulty settings is an idea?

Only if you sit down and actually take the time to DO THING 1. It doesn't work. Reload. DO THING 2. It doesn't work. Reload. DO THING 3. It doesn't work. Reload. DO THING 5. It doesn't work. Reload.DO THING 6. It doesn't work. Reload. DO THING 7. It doesn't work. Reload. Realize you forgot to do thing 4. DO THING 4. Oh, hey, finally, it worked! Phew. Everything's going my way! Right? Right? It's not like I just failed consecutively or anything, right? It's not like I just wasted an hour obsessing over perfection, right?

 

I'll get better at tactics when playing the game. You know why? Because when I mess something up, I'll soldier on, while learning from the experience. And I do that, even in a game, where I can just click 'reload' and try again. And their are plenty of people with the more-or-less exact same mentality.

 

I honestly have never even heard of people playing like this until this thread, and I've been a part of the cRPG community for ten years.

 

Honestly, it feels like you're basing your argument on what amounts to little more than a straw man "player" that can't control their own actions and has no independence of thought.

 

Edit: Honestly, my point is, I think the whole process of having to reload ad infinitum or backing up your saves in another folder is enough of a hassle to dissuade most people from "cheating themselves out of the experience", or what have you.

Edited October 15, 2012 by HangedMan

[Epsilon Rose]

I have to agree with the people who say this isn't really a problem that needs a solution.

That said, if it really bugs you then taking a page from dark souls might help. Rather than only being able to save at certain check points have the game save pretty much constantly. That way you're free to stop whenever you like, but you can't brute force encounters.

The only problem with this is that it prevents you from trying out a new ability/upgrade to see if you like it or it works the way you expect and then reloading if it doesn't.

[HangedMan]

I have to agree with the people who say this isn't really a problem that needs a solution.

That said, if it really bugs you then taking a page from dark souls might help. Rather than only being able to save at certain check points have the game save pretty much constantly. That way you're free to stop whenever you like, but you can't brute force encounters.

The only problem with this is that it prevents you from trying out a new ability/upgrade to see if you like it or it works the way you expect and then reloading if it doesn't.

I'm pretty sure some of the people in this thread would count this as a positive, not a negative.

Edited October 15, 2012 by HangedMan

[JFSOCC]

Yes, those console loving dirty casuals

[wickermoon]

I'm sorry, but I don't really see the problem? Do you want this option for somebody else or for you? Because the people that don't want to use this option aren't going to use it and the people who do want that option could start to build up some self-control. Just.don't.****ing.scum.save.

This seems more like trying to enforce a play-style on others, rather than enhance the game.

[Slaunyeh]

The argument that saving anywhere will ruin the game is a simple one: You kill the challenge of the game if you can retry every encounter, whether combat or dialogue, because you are certain to always overcome every obstacle, without having to change your behaviour. You don't have to get better at tactics, you don't have to moderate your words to get the best result. You just have to brute force all the possibilities and then pick the one that yields the desired results the best way.

 

I don't think that's actually true. I mean, whether you have save points (or some similar mechanic) or can save whenever you feel like it, you can still retry every encounter. One may be slightly more inconvenient than the other, but if you're defeated in an encounter you will have to to retry it, whether you have to jump back three encounters and start over, or you just have to replay the one you lost. One option just makes you hate your life more than the other. I'm sorry, but I can't see any argument for picking the more punitive option.

 

Secondly, if an encounter is absolutely crushing me, I don't see how being able to save is really going to change that outcome. If I get defeated I will have to retry the fight anyway and I'd probably have to try different tactics next time, no matter what. Being defeated because I do something wrong is certainly frustrating enough for me. I don't need the game to also kick me in the shin and say "oh, and because you suck, you also have to replay the last half hour".

 

Finally, if I really wanted to kill the challenge of the game (which I don't believe the save everywhere option does, anyway), what's that to you? With one option, you're free to make the game as challenging as you like, while I can make it as challenging as I like (as far as saving the game affects the challenge at all, that is). With the other option, I have to play the game your way. Why pick the option that only favours you when you can pick the option that favours the both of us? (and if your answer is "because the option that favours both of us will inherently break the entire game", we have truly come full circle in this discussion. )

[Troller]

Just dont save man, what the hell, or hire someone to watch you, and pay him to punch you everytime you do

[HangedMan]

Just dont save man, what the hell, or hire someone to watch you, and pay him to punch you everytime you do

I'll do it! If someone can't control themselves, you can hire me to control your saves for you! I will ensure you only save once an hour. And if you act up, you will be biffed by a foam sword! And all it will cost you is a bottle of soda.

[Umberlin]

What would someone be paid by the hour for that sort of work? Or would it be on a case by case basis, like how much you get paid relates to how often you have to step in? Extra payment required for each foam sword bopping.

[HangedMan]

What would someone be paid by the hour for that sort of work? Or would it be on a case by case basis, like how much you get paid relates to how often you have to step in? Extra payment required for each foam sword bopping.

It's pay-per-bop. I charge three dollars a bop, myself. Also, I expect gratuity in the form of soda.

Edited October 16, 2012 by HangedMan

[AlphaShard]

Now that we don't have Raise Dead/Resurrection and limited healing looks like I'll be "save scumming" a lot, all over the place and all of the time.

[HangedMan]

Now that we don't have Raise Dead/Resurrection and limited healing looks like I'll be "save scumming" a lot, all over the place and all of the time.

Oh my goodness! Stop right there, you bad boy, you! You are going to be having bad-wrong-fun, and I can't possibly allow that! It's for your own good, though, so don't worry about it!

[metiman]

Now that we don't have Raise Dead/Resurrection and limited healing looks like I'll be "save scumming" a lot, all over the place and all of the time.

 

Excellent. You, sir, have the right attitude. The less tedious and repetitive the gameplay the better. If you want to replay a section you already played you can always just load a previous save slot.