For RP/customization sake, please allow us to keep the same "armor/weapon" look if we want for new euqipment.

[Director]

Complete waste of time. If they take the time to design a stack of different armour / helms / weapons - why then have an option to turn it all off?

 

Hell - the game will probably only have Cloth / Leather / Chain / Plate appearances anyhow... I doubt that each suit of armour will look different.

[Scab]

Nah. Wearing my rose colored glasses, I'd prefer all designs were distinct and appealing to me all the time.

[Epsilon Rose]

Personally, I like the way it was handled in DC ultimate alliance where you had one slot for the item and one slot for the equipment, that way you can craft a character with a certain aesthetic or, at the least, a coherent look. That said, after reading some of the arguments in this thread I also think it might be a good idea to have legendary or otherwise unique weapons lock their appearance and give crafters a greater selection of forms and/or the ability to modify pieces.

[ogrezilla]

 

 

But whether they use the option or not, the option being there influences the design since the devs will not put in any description that can wind up not being true due to this mechanic, resulting in your desires affecting his game. Just putting it out.

I dont see any reason this would have to be true.

[Stiler]

Don't like this idea eiher.

It basically robs any item no matter if helmet, armor or sword of their own style and personality.

So if the item description reads: "A great iron helmet, decorated with miniature dragon wings on each side and studded with the scales of a red dragon. The visor is formed in the shape of a dragons jaws and lined with rows of metal teeth." Then it feels just weird that my character is wearing a shining golden helmet with horns.

Can I make a leather cap look like a viking helmet as well with a mechanic like that? Where is the gratification in finding something cool looking then?

 

 

How does it rob any item of style???

 

It is the PLAYERS choice, you are not forced to use it or not. Items can still have unique looks, and if you pick up a new item and simply prefer your older items looks but the new item has far better stats, you can choose to keep the look you have and still get the stats from the new item.

 

like in GW2 you can have a trade off so that if you use a transmutation stone or item to transfer the stats to the look of the other it destroys the other item (so basically you "Combine" them and only get one item instead of keep the other and being able to sell it or anything).

 

Items can still have descriptions, but obviously if the player chooses to use the "look" of another item then the description of said item will be kept witht he one they use the look of, not the one that they simply take the stats from.

[Ieo]

My experience with LotRO's cosmetic system has been good (yes, it's an MMO)--though it has much to do with being on an RP server and MMO gear designs being generally cartoony and stupid. (One of my favorite cosmetic sets is just a plain white mail set with plain cloak, boots.) Another reason is that a piece of gear that looked good on the average human male avatar often looked weird on other races and then completely crappy on females (same with various armours designed for other races, of course). And then there's the whole nonmatching annoyance. And then, being on an RP server, players are expected to dress their avatars to the occasion.

 

But, I don't see those reasons applying very well in PE, if at all:

 

(1) MMOs are 3D zoomable, so of course you'd get some godawful close-up shots of horribad looking gear. PE is 2D isometric zoomed out. Our only detailed view of the gear will likely be the paper doll UI, and it's not worth it to implement a cosmetic system just for that. Unless there are going to be a whole bunch of cinematic cut-scenes. (Oh HELL no.)

 

(2) The (very) few designs I've seen of PE so far indicate that sets will be designed tastefully. Hopefully.

 

(3) LotRO's cosmetic system is 'layered', where you can 'save' a gear piece's look temporarily over the matching gear piece slot in a separate outfit tab--your actual worn gear is not affected at all. It's kind of hard to explain, but suffice it to say, I do not believe this sort of system is cheap to implement at all. The other systems that involve actually changing an item may be more prorgammatically complicated, even. I dunno.

 

(4) MMO itemization is typically quite different from most SP games--you are constantly changing gear per level and there are thousands upon thousands of gear pieces; PE does not have these resources. If PE were to implement a cosmetic system, it would be for far less benefit/usage than in an MMO because we're not expecting thousands upon thousands of gear options.

 

So, honestly, while it's nice in certain other games, those games (especially MMOs) have their reasons to use such systems, and I don't see good reason to work on such an implementation here, unless Obsidian felt it worthwhile to add to a stretch goal or something. That's their call.

[nikolokolus]

I suppose if a crafting system is implemented and if the appropriate perks/feats are taken for smithing and item enchanting, then you could come up with a plausible reason for magical or legendary equipment to be altered in appearance, but to just be able to do it willy, nilly seems stupid to me and frankly immersion breaking.

[Stiler]

(3) LotRO's cosmetic system is 'layered', where you can 'save' a gear piece's look temporarily over the matching gear piece slot in a separate outfit tab--your actual worn gear is not affected at all. It's kind of hard to explain, but suffice it to say, I do not believe this sort of system is cheap to implement at all. The other systems that involve actually changing an item may be more prorgammatically complicated, even. I dunno.

 

(4) MMO itemization is typically quite different from most SP games--you are constantly changing gear per level and there are thousands upon thousands of gear pieces; PE does not have these resources. If PE were to implement a cosmetic system, it would be for far less benefit/usage than in an MMO because we're not expecting thousands upon thousands of gear options.

 

So, honestly, while it's nice in certain other games, those games (especially MMOs) have their reasons to use such systems, and I don't see good reason to work on such an implementation here, unless Obsidian felt it worthwhile to add to a stretch goal or something. That's their call.

 

 

I would think it would be extremely cheap actually and very non-time consuming as well All it is doing is telling the game "the player is wearing this item visually, but using the stats from this item." That's it, There's no special things they really have to do but simply tell the game to visually show this "model" while using the stats from this equipment.

 

all they would really have to do is code for that and put a little UI work into having it in the game.

[Tlantl]

I think the only way we should be able to have the gear we want and to have it look the way we want is if we made the stuff ourselves.

 

I wouldn't want everything I found to look just like the stuff I already have unless the only changes needed were attaching bangles or a new coat of paint.

 

I wouldn't mind there being multiple copies of certain models with better stats and abilities built in so that I could actually find a breastplate that looked like the one I was wearing but was far superior in durability enchantment or made from a more exotic material. These would likely be very basic and common though.

 

I'd say if you want special or unique looking gear you'd need to make it yourself or have a craftsman make it for you.

[ogrezilla]

I suppose if a crafting system is implemented and if the appropriate perks/feats are taken for smithing and item enchanting, then you could come up with a plausible reason for magical or legendary equipment to be altered in appearance, but to just be able to do it willy, nilly seems stupid to me and frankly immersion breaking.

but why do you care if I break my immersion in my single player RPG?

[nikolokolus]

I suppose if a crafting system is implemented and if the appropriate perks/feats are taken for smithing and item enchanting, then you could come up with a plausible reason for magical or legendary equipment to be altered in appearance, but to just be able to do it willy, nilly seems stupid to me and frankly immersion breaking.

but why do you care if I break my immersion in my single player RPG?

 

Having a toggle like that would break immersion for me ... just knowing that there was a "feature" like this in the inventory screen would irritate me.

 

If you want to modify equipment then there should be a corresponding skill or the ability to hire a smith/echanter to alter magical equipment for you.

 

It comes down to this for me, if this were a tabletop game and I was GM there would have to be some plausible explanation for altering the physical properties of an item.

[AzureWatcher]

So simply give spellcasters (or a profession, but I will use spellcaster for ease of argument) the ability to take magical properties of an item, but not the physical properties (i.e. armor rating, weight, appearance etc.), and then transplant those effects onto a new item. But in order to do that the new item needs to either A) have no magical effects on them or B) have the magical effects removed by either the same skill or a different one.

 

It is a perfect compromise that won't clutter your UI. You can chose to have your spellcaster invest in this spell or not. It also would prevent you from having a robe have the armor rating of a cuirass but would allow your robe to have the magical benefits the cuirass might provide.

 

It could be reconned by the spell taking the "Soul" of one item and then placing it another. I'm not exactly sure how true to the lore this may or may not sound, but I am quite sure the devs could make it work for those of you who are concerned about the amount of lore-breaking this feature might come with it.

Edited September 27, 2012 by AzureWatcher

[Uomoz]

Terrible idea, born of pandering to MMO fashionists. Burn it with fire.

[Ieo]

(3) LotRO's cosmetic system is 'layered', where you can 'save' a gear piece's look temporarily over the matching gear piece slot in a separate outfit tab--your actual worn gear is not affected at all. It's kind of hard to explain, but suffice it to say, I do not believe this sort of system is cheap to implement at all. The other systems that involve actually changing an item may be more prorgammatically complicated, even. I dunno.

 

(4) MMO itemization is typically quite different from most SP games--you are constantly changing gear per level and there are thousands upon thousands of gear pieces; PE does not have these resources. If PE were to implement a cosmetic system, it would be for far less benefit/usage than in an MMO because we're not expecting thousands upon thousands of gear options.

 

So, honestly, while it's nice in certain other games, those games (especially MMOs) have their reasons to use such systems, and I don't see good reason to work on such an implementation here, unless Obsidian felt it worthwhile to add to a stretch goal or something. That's their call.

 

 

I would think it would be extremely cheap actually and very non-time consuming as well All it is doing is telling the game "the player is wearing this item visually, but using the stats from this item." That's it, There's no special things they really have to do but simply tell the game to visually show this "model" while using the stats from this equipment.

 

all they would really have to do is code for that and put a little UI work into having it in the game.

 

At this point, I can assume you have no programming experience whatsoever, whether through a relation or classes or having done it yourself. Adding a UI element and a final visual check is all the end--this doesn't take into account programming for triggers and limits and 'what happens when player drags this to there', things that lead up to the final visual the end-user sees.

 

And you conveniently didn't address my first two points, nor the fourth. Try doing that first. Because mine are arguments that this would be a waste of resources for the ROI. This thread is more along the lines of "but it wouldn't affect you and I want it so it should be done." The problem is that with poor ROI, in a non-AAA-funded KS game, wasting effort for something so purely cosmetic that doesn't relate to combat mechanics, story content, NPC content, or setting would affect other players. You'd be better off begging for a stretch goal, but even then, the game purpose in PE is so nonexistent, I'd rather Obsidian work on just nice-looking gear to begin with.

 

There are other cosmetic issues like spell effects, but those are tied so closely to combat mechanics and quite visible in 2D iso that it makes sense to get picky about them.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Ieo

[Epsilon Rose]

It comes down to this for me, if this were a tabletop game and I was GM there would have to be some plausible explanation for altering the physical properties of an item.

There are two problems with that logic. First, in a PnP game the GM is going to give the characters some consideration when he describes the gear so it's likely to fit into there style without modification. Second PnP games don't have graphics. Everything's in the players' heads so if they want things to match they can easily make them match.

 

@Ieo: Actually, from a programming standpoint it's probably trivial to separate an items image from it's stats. In fact, depending on how a game handles it's resources, they probably already are. To me it makes most sense to have the models fo each item in their own files and have the stats for items in a text based list (or series of lists) with pointers to the models. If that's the case then all they would need to do is add an if statement the goes

Get Item_slot
Get Cosmetic_slot
if (cosmetic_slot == null)
{
Character_model =Item_slot.Model;
}
else
{
Caracter_model=Cosmetic_slot.Model;
}

That's modeled on java and assumes the items stats are stored as java classes but you could implement the same thing in any number of languages.

[Sensuki]

it will be an isometric game, most of the time you won't be paying too much attention to the spikes on your armor, unlike a 3D game where you're watching your rear view most of the time.

[Stiler]

(3) LotRO's cosmetic system is 'layered', where you can 'save' a gear piece's look temporarily over the matching gear piece slot in a separate outfit tab--your actual worn gear is not affected at all. It's kind of hard to explain, but suffice it to say, I do not believe this sort of system is cheap to implement at all. The other systems that involve actually changing an item may be more prorgammatically complicated, even. I dunno.

 

(4) MMO itemization is typically quite different from most SP games--you are constantly changing gear per level and there are thousands upon thousands of gear pieces; PE does not have these resources. If PE were to implement a cosmetic system, it would be for far less benefit/usage than in an MMO because we're not expecting thousands upon thousands of gear options.

 

So, honestly, while it's nice in certain other games, those games (especially MMOs) have their reasons to use such systems, and I don't see good reason to work on such an implementation here, unless Obsidian felt it worthwhile to add to a stretch goal or something. That's their call.

 

 

I would think it would be extremely cheap actually and very non-time consuming as well All it is doing is telling the game "the player is wearing this item visually, but using the stats from this item." That's it, There's no special things they really have to do but simply tell the game to visually show this "model" while using the stats from this equipment.

 

all they would really have to do is code for that and put a little UI work into having it in the game.

 

At this point, I can assume you have no programming experience whatsoever, whether through a relation or classes or having done it yourself. Adding a UI element and a final visual check is all the end--this doesn't take into account programming for triggers and limits and 'what happens when player drags this to there', things that lead up to the final visual the end-user sees.

 

And you conveniently didn't address my first two points, nor the fourth. Try doing that first. Because mine are arguments that this would be a waste of resources for the ROI. This thread is more along the lines of "but it wouldn't affect you and I want it so it should be done." The problem is that with poor ROI, in a non-AAA-funded KS game, wasting effort for something so purely cosmetic that doesn't relate to combat mechanics, story content, NPC content, or setting would affect other players. You'd be better off begging for a stretch goal, but even then, the game purpose in PE is so nonexistent, I'd rather Obsidian work on just nice-looking gear to begin with.

 

There are other cosmetic issues like spell effects, but those are tied so closely to combat mechanics and quite visible in 2D iso that it makes sense to get picky about them.

 

I didn't reply to each point of yours because I saw no need to.

 

No I am not a programmer so if you could maybe explain how simply telling the game "use this visual model but stats from this model" is somehow extremely complicated and time consuming to do because i'm not understanding how it's such a huge task.

 

I understand it would take "some" resources, but I don't see how it'd take a ton of time/work like you make it seem, as though you'd need an entire team of programmers, animators, writers and everyone to drop the ball and do it all for months on end to have something so simple.

 

Heck Bethesda developers were able to develop in a weeks time for skyrim:

1. A season based system

2. Spears

3. Flow based water shaders

 

and many other things, all of which would seem to me a heck of a lot more complicated then simply programming a simple "use this visual appearance."

 

 

Also I'm not saying "IT MUST BE IN" It's simply a suggestion for something that (to me) doesn't seem like it'd take a ton of work to have in and would be great for people that actually care about how our characters look.

 

This is a role playing game last I checked, and part of the fun of roleplaying is playing how you want, both gameplay wise and cosmetically.

 

One of the main reasons I'd like this feature in is because in many rpgs the higher lv up you go the more exotic armor gets, and this usually equates to big spikes and other things that don't fit what I'd like my character to look like. Even if armor isn't too abstract like that it'd still be nice to have my character, who I make, look how I wish him to look.

 

One of the main points of an rpg is choice, choice how you develop your character, choice how you respond in dialogues and play said character, and choice how you outfit that character. Why you think it's such a waste to be able to visually cater your character how you wish is beyond me.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Stiler

[Luckmann]

NO.

 

That's a cowards way out.

Afraid of making a choice, so you want your cake and eat it.

Choosing frustrates you? Well golly gee Sherlock - that's what choice usually does!

 

Frak that.

Destinct look for armor. If you don't like it, don't wear it...simple as that.

Yeah, I have no idea how anyone could advocate this in the name of roleplaying.

 

It's near-literally the antithesis of roleplaying. It's a game mechanic specifically designed to circumvent choice.

 

If you find the Black Helmet of Bhaal, it should be a black helmet.

If you find the Jester's Headbladder of Ridicule, it should be a multicoloured ballsack with balls hanging from it.

[nikolokolus]

So would you object to the developers having a crafting system so you could use player skills to create and modify equipment?

[Tuco Benedicto]

If you find the Black Helmet of Bhaal, it should be a black helmet.

If you find the Jester's Headbladder of Ridicule, it should be a multicoloured ballsack with balls hanging from it.

That's actually a good point you make. You made me reconsider my initial endorsement.

Unique items should have their own "uniqueness" unaffected. Being able to interchange the model/skin between items would drive the supposed "distinctive personality" out of these items.

 

What can I say? Let's just hope they are not going for exceedingly cheesy stuff in the end game. Something that for some weird reason happens *systematically* with RPGs.

I would like to reach the final part of this game without having my party wearing crap like this:

 

 

and more stuff like this:

 

Edited September 27, 2012 by Tuco Benedicto

[Umberlin]

From a role-playing perspective I fully understand the people that want to be able to control the look of their character. I enjoy it when customization systems allow for this, as long as it's not completely out of control. There do need to be limitations, such as if a class (just an example) has an armor restriction (just as an example, yes I know) then I'd prefer a customization system keep that armor limitation in place while still allowing you to customize within that.

 

From a role-playing perspective let's remember that the more conservative character typically dressing in dull colors and simple items suddenly finding the rainbow patterned pearl circlet of power . . . might just not feel natural wearing it. To which one can say, "Well don't wear it" to which one reminds them . . . like it or not, in an RPG, statistics, be they character or item statistics, matter. "Don't wear it" has been an excused used repeatedly, by fans of games and their developers, and they've always been shot down, some shot down thoroughly enough that said games now have the customization systems they said they didn't want/wouldn't ever do be that in an update or new iterations of the game (sequels, for example).

Edited September 27, 2012 by Umberlin

[ogrezilla]

So would you object to the developers having a crafting system so you could use player skills to create and modify equipment?

if they want use player skills to implement something that lets us either create our own armor that is as good as the armor we can find while customizing how it looks, that would be awesome. I would be perfectly happy with that solution. Like I said in the first post, the whole idea is completely unnecessary. I just think it would be kind of neat.

 

It really blows my mind that menu options ruin the immersion of these games so easily though. Does the floating hand controlling your character's actions bother you? The colored circles when you select something? Or the fact that your Paladin NPC friend will get mad at you when you act like a jerk in conversation, but the second you tell them to bash an innkeepers face in he will do it without hesitation? It's a game. There is a game interface that lets you do all sorts of silly things that are much more ridiculous than changing how you look.

[ogrezilla]

From a role-playing perspective I fully understand the people that want to be able to control the look of their character. I enjoy it when customization systems allow for this, as long as it's not completely out of control. There do need to be limitations, such as if a class (just an example) has an armor restriction (just as an example, yes I know) then I'd prefer a customization system keep that armor limitation in place while still allowing you to customize within that.

 

That would be perfectly reasonable I think.

 

What about something like this? Just looking at this knight at an example.

What if there are just item slots for things like tunics that go over your armor that have no statistical value but let you somewhat customize the look of your characters no matter what armor is on underneath. Different types of armors could allow for different types of clothes over them.

Edited September 27, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Tuco Benedicto]

What if there are just item slots for things like tunics that go over your armor that have no statistical value but let you somewhat customize the look of your characters no matter what armor is on underneath.

Do you mean something like a World of Warcraft guild tabard or similar?

Edited September 27, 2012 by Tuco Benedicto

[ogrezilla]

I actually didn't think of that, but now that you mention it I guess I do. Just preferably not all the exact same thing with different colors and symbols. I mean, that would work I suppose. That would be completely optional. It would be completely within the immersion of the game and perfectly reasonable not to wear anything over your armor. I figure you could allow for more creativity than just that. Things like overcoats or whatever types of clothes fits the style of the game.

Edited September 27, 2012 by ogrezilla