Tropes vs Women

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Agreeing with you is only attractive to People With Bad Opinions. Objectively speaking

Please, feel free to explain how misogynistic writing is appealing to people who are not misogynists. Go on. I'm waiting.

 

Did the writing in any game made by Obsidian or Black Isle strike you as misogynist? If not, I don't really see the issue. We can trust them not to f*** it up, just like the didn't do it in the previous 10 games (or so).

[Tigranes]

Let's keep it mellow. It's OK to debate each other's arguments re. what constitutes racism, misogyny, etc., but don't slap each other silly over it.

[-TK-]

Sexuality is complex, labeling it is also complex, not seeing the problem.

 

It's a game, not a soap box.

 

Sexual politics is complex and needs to be examined, not seeing the problem.

 

Again, it's a game.

 

There are a lot of complex and important issues that need to be explored, examined and debated, but not in a medieval fantasy game.

 

Accusations of intolerance because of intolerance? Shock! Horror! World ending now!

 

Exactly accusations of intolerance, because you are being intolerant.

 

I know that white people are really whiny about being called out on racism, but no it isn't.

 

How do you know I'm white?

 

And further more:

I know that white people are really whiny about being called out on racism

I know that white people are really whiny

white people

 

If that isn't a racist statement then what is?

Edited September 23, 2012 by -TK-

[Hagen]

Why in eff's sake do these useless discussions keep springing up like shrooms from a pile of sh..?

 

I want Obsidian to make an awesome game with a great story in a new setting of their own. They write the story, they decide about the setting, adn they decide what conflicts/issues exist in that setting.

 

"Real world" political agendas of whatever color should just GTFO. I want a game that entertains me, not something that shoves whomever's views down my throat.

[Giantevilhead]

"The time is always right to do what’s right." - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

[Dragoonlordz]

"The time is always right to do what’s right." - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

 

If you wish to create a game with social and political agenda attached, modern world issues projected into a fantasy setting thats your choice. You can do it and I would wish you luck (put it on kickstarter and maybe I will pledge or maybe not), however this is not a game being made to further your own political and social standing or views. It actually makes very little if any sense enforcing real world issues (forced equality and everyone holding hands singing the hills are alive with the sound of music in peaceful harmony) into this game when this game is set in a fantasy world with potential a vastly darker setting and non evolved civilisations.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[-TK-]

"The time is always right to do what’s right." - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

 

If you wish to create a game with social and political agenda attached, modern world issues projected into a fantasy setting thats your choice. You can do it and I would wish you luck (put it on kickstarter and maybe I will pledge or maybe not), however this is not a game being made to further your own political and social standing or views. It actually makes very little if any sense enforcing real world issues (foirced equality and everyone holding hands singing the hills are alive with the sound of music in peaceful harmony) into this game when this game is set in a fantasy world with potential a vastly darker setting and non evolved civilisations than modern real life values would like to acheive.

 

Exactly this.

 

Just how many rainbows do you want to try and fit in to an M rated game?

[TrashMan]

The point is not to specifically segregate but to give greater representation and voice to those who have historically been excluded or diminished.

 

And by doing that they become holy cows. Over-protected.

And often abusing that status and milking smypathy for all it's worth.

 

You can't even argue agaisnt someone holding such oppinions, because no matter how you word something or how much care you take you WILL be attacked and branded as a raccist/mysgonist/anti-semite or whatever...if not by the specific person you're debating with, then by the legion of self-righteous crusaders who only wait for an opportuntiy ot prove ot everyone how more liberal and toleran and better they are than everyone else by riding the PC fad train to infinity and beyond.

 

Giving them special treatments won't fix anything.

Treating them normally will.

[TrashMan]

Agreeing with you is only attractive to People With Bad Opinions. Objectively speaking

Please, feel free to explain how misogynistic writing is appealing to people who are not misogynists. Go on. I'm waiting.

 

Because your definitions on what constitues as what and what people must like, and how they msut think, and what they must mean does not really interest me.

[TrashMan]

"The time is always right to do what’s right." - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

 

 

This implies that what you want is right and just, and everyone else who disagrees is injust and evil.

[lord of flies]

Did the writing in any game made by Obsidian or Black Isle strike you as misogynist?

No, but some of the posters in this thread do, and they're who I'm arguing with.

It's a game, not a soap box.

Right, so let's remove heterosexuals and men, so as not to reinforce a political agenda.

Again, it's a game.

So because it's a game, it shouldn't include any political issues at all. Problem: this is literally impossible.

There are a lot of complex and important issues that need to be explored, examined and debated, but not in a medieval fantasy game.

Because...?

Exactly accusations of intolerance, because you are being intolerant.

I'm being intolerant of intolerance. How horrible.

How do you know I'm white?

Good question. Let me answer it. This:

If that isn't a racist statement then what is?

is how I know you're white.

If you wish to create a game with social and political agenda attached, modern world issues projected into a fantasy setting thats your choice. You can do it and I would wish you luck (put it on kickstarter and maybe I will pledge or maybe not), however this is not a game being made to further your own political and social standing or views. It actually makes very little if any sense enforcing real world issues (forced equality and everyone holding hands singing the hills are alive with the sound of music in peaceful harmony) into this game when this game is set in a fantasy world with potential a vastly darker setting and non evolved civilisations.

Literally no one is arguing for this. I know you live in some ridiculous alternate universe where everyone who disagrees with you wants 22nd century social mores in their socially medieval fantasy setting, but what I want is for the objective reality of the setting (again, not the characters, or the cultures) not to fit with the regressive bull**** y'all are spouting.

[Dragoonlordz]

If you wish to create a game with social and political agenda attached, modern world issues projected into a fantasy setting thats your choice. You can do it and I would wish you luck (put it on kickstarter and maybe I will pledge or maybe not), however this is not a game being made to further your own political and social standing or views. It actually makes very little if any sense enforcing real world issues (forced equality and everyone holding hands singing the hills are alive with the sound of music in peaceful harmony) into this game when this game is set in a fantasy world with potential a vastly darker setting and non evolved civilisations.

Literally no one is arguing for this. I know you live in some ridiculous alternate universe where everyone who disagrees with you wants 22nd century social mores in their socially medieval fantasy setting, but what I want is for the objective reality of the setting (again, not the characters, or the cultures) not to fit with the regressive bull**** y'all are spouting.

 

Okay at this stage I am going to ignore you. You are acting like a child. The only thing your doing is throwing around insults.

 

I am done with you.

[-TK-]

It's a game, not a soap box.

Right, so let's remove heterosexuals and men, so as not to reinforce a political agenda.

 

There's a difference beetween including a basic social normm and shoe-horning in an agenda.

 

So because it's a game, it shouldn't include any political issues at all. Problem: this is literally impossible.

 

That isn't what I said at all, clearly. I said it shouldn't be a soap box for somebody's political agenda, it should be a platform to tell a story that the player can be a part of, not interactive propaganda.

 

 

I'm being intolerant of intolerance. How horrible.

 

No, you're being intolerant of anybody who doesn't agree with you.

 

 

 

This is my favourite part:

 

 

How do you know I'm white?

 

Good question. Let me answer it. This:

 

If that isn't a racist statement then what is?

is how I know you're white.

 

 

I'm having to use every ounce of civility in my body to stop myself from underlining how moronic that statement is

 

You are a racist, my friend, and a hypocrite to boot.

[lord of flies]

Okay at this stage I am going to ignore you. You are acting like a child. The only thing your doing is throwing around insults.

 

I am done with you.

I'm the one acting like a child? You're the one who literally, literally, not figuratively but literally, is taking your ball and going home.

[SqueakyCat]

I'm new to the forums. Is there an 'unlike' button?

[Hagen]

So because it's a game, it shouldn't include any political issues at all. Problem: this is literally impossible.

It should include political issues that are present as part of the setting and story. A fantasy RPG is a work of fiction, after all. Therefore, any political issues portrayed in its story are likewise fictional. Why insert real life issues into a game unless the intent is to use it as a propaganda platform?

Edited September 23, 2012 by Hagen

[lord of flies]

There's a difference beetween including a basic social normm and shoe-horning in an agenda.

Not really.

That isn't what I said at all, clearly. I said it shouldn't be a soap box for somebody's political agenda, it should be a platform to tell a story that the player can be a part of, not interactive propaganda.

Nobody's asking for the latter.

No, you're being intolerant of anybody who doesn't agree with you.

Because the people who disagree with me, are, in this case, intolerant?? Shocking.

I'm having to use every ounce of civility in my body to stop myself from underlining how moronic that statement is

 

You are a racist, my friend, and a hypocrite to boot.

Go ahead, underline it. Please. I'm desperately waiting with baited breath for you to explain how I'm so racist that I can correctly identify your race by your connection to certain cultural ideas that are virtually exclusively the domain of white people? I notice you've yet to say "aha, but I'm not white!" because you are, and I'm right.

[Monte Carlo]

I'm new to the forums. Is there an 'unlike' button?

 

In all the time he's posted here I've not seen anything that wasn't provocative and / or disputatious. At first I thought he was a clever troll using a .alt then I realised he was just an old-skool troll. Get him onto Stalin. He'll defend purges, famines and genocide. The guy is, literally, vile.

[lord of flies]

In all the time he's posted here I've not seen anything that wasn't provocative and / or disputatious. At first I thought he was a clever troll using a .alt then I realised he was just an old-skool troll. Get him onto Stalin. He'll defend purges, famines and genocide. The guy is, literally, vile.

lol your country literally killed more people than Stalin could've ever dreamed, and you call it "blessed". C'mon, son.

[Cycloneman]

In all the time he's posted here I've not seen anything that wasn't provocative and / or disputatious. At first I thought he was a clever troll using a .alt then I realised he was just an old-skool troll. Get him onto Stalin. He'll defend purges, famines and genocide. The guy is, literally, vile.

Nice ad hom, Monte Carlo. Really boring how you seem to do nothing but follow LoF around and complain about how you've got him on ignore SO HARD. Secret crush, maybe?

[-TK-]

Go ahead, underline it. Please. I'm desperately waiting with baited breath for you to explain how I'm so racist that I can correctly identify your race by your connection to certain cultural ideas that are virtually exclusively the domain of white people? I notice you've yet to say "aha, but I'm not white!" because you are, and I'm right.

 

I'm saying you're racist because you're making broad, largely if not completely negative generalised statements about a specific race: ie, white people.

You're then going on to say that you can tell I'm white because I'm calling you out on your hypocrisy.

 

I'm sorry, but I really don't credit you with the mental capacity to hold a meaningful debate with anyone here, you're simply throwing around wild accusations and insults at anyone who disagrees with you.

 

Further more, if Dragoonlordz is taking his 'ball and going home' as you say, then you're throwing all of your toys out of the pram because nobody is patting you on the back and telling you how right you are.

 

Dragoonlordz has the right idea; you're not worth my time.

 

I'm done.

 

P.S.

I'm Asian.

Edited September 23, 2012 by -TK-

[Dragoonlordz]

I'm new to the forums. Is there an 'unlike' button?

 

In all the time he's posted here I've not seen anything that wasn't provocative and / or disputatious. At first I thought he was a clever troll using a .alt then I realised he was just an old-skool troll. Get him onto Stalin. He'll defend purges, famines and genocide. The guy is, literally, vile.

 

I do not think he is a troll. I just think he is misguided and lacks self control. Healthy debate in here has been turned into a constant stream of misleading, melodramatic or pure insulting remarks by him against anyone who does not agree with his views. I tried to look for an ignore function on this forum but appears there is none so I have instead decided to not respond to him anymore. But like I said I do not think he is trolling just a bit immature in how treats other people with different views to his own. Slightly oblivious to his own flaws maybe. I think I will go talk about other aspects of the game rather than be in the same thread as him at this stage. Good luck with the debate if staying to discuss topic, I hope he does not ruin it for others anymore than already has.

[lord of flies]

I'm saying you're racist because you're making broad, largely if not completely negative generalised statements about a specific race: ie, white people.

You're then going on to say that you can tell I'm white because I'm calling you out on your hypocrisy.

Is it also racist to notice that East Asian people are more likely to speak Mandarin than white people? To point out that other cultures have different rules for eye contact, personal space, and touch? My god. I never knew.

I'm sorry, but I really don't credit you with the mental capacity to hold a meaningful debate with anyone here, you're simply throwing around wild accusations and insults at anyone who disagrees with you.

That's a mirror.

[J.E. Sawyer]

In "historically misogynist" societies, women were second-class citizens because they're, on average, weaker than men, and thus less capable of defending themselves (thank you, captain!).

But in a fantasy world, where people can develop magical abilities which a) are equally frequent in both sexes and b) make their wielders able to raze a city to the ground... well, they are not so defenseless.

Yes, this. Magical ability always seems to be equal across the genders in videogames. (In fact, if anything, there's more games that tend toward showing the caster classes as women rather than men (which is a trope in itself, but I digress).)

Side note: there are some (bad, IMO) history books that equate early modern witch-hunts with women-hunts, i.e. either intentionally designed to attack/destroy women or subconsciously carried out to just grind women into the dust (as if they needed any sort of made-up pretext if they wanted to do that, anyway). In continental Europe and the British Isles, witchcraft was typically associated with things that women do: childbirth, midwifery, herbalism/folk magic, and being caretakers/practitioners of longstanding folk beliefs that syncretized with Catholicism. This is also stuff that a) went wrong a lot (infant mortality was between 50% and 60%) and b) was often associated with "maleficia" (evil magic used to harm other people/their crops/their livestock -- in a world where this stuff got screwed up naturally all the time).

 

Women also were considered more emotionally/spiritually open, which meant that a lot more women became the focus of saint cults as mystics of affective piety (e.g. St. Teresa of Ávila). As the theology and "science" of witch-hunting developed, it shifted from being viewed as errant paganism to being viewed as willful Satanism. Unsurprisingly, the same arguments used to explain why so many women were mystics also explained why so many women were being possessed/seduced by demons.

 

As a result, in most of Europe, witch-hunts typically yielded accused/executed populations where between 70% and 90% were women. The exception was Iceland, where the traditional folk magic, galdrastafir (magical staves), was practiced almost exclusively by men. The German-educated Danes who did most of the witch-hunting in Iceland applied the same continental logic to their hunts, resulting in 90% of the accused and executed being men.

[Auxilius]

It's an interesting topic where we can see the unconscious results of old folks' tale. And I just thought women were casters because their frailer body made them better at the Squishy Wizard part. Beard sometimes included.

 

On the witch-hunt subject, why did they start to begin with? I know people need a scapegoat to explain their misery, be they cats or women, but what decide what should be hunted and what should not? The strong domining the weak? A man talented at talking? That's how riots and cults start.

 

I think I'll restart The Witcher 1.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Auxilius