It's a Kind of Magic

[The Dark One Avoozl]

Well hello there. I can already hear the people groan in front of their PCs as they read the topic title thinking it's another thread about what magic system to use in combat.

 

To relieve you. It's not. It's about something else I'm concerned with and I'm making this thread to maybe bring this to Obsidian's attention as Eternity is still in the development stages.

 

My concern is the use of magic OUTSIDE of combat. I've seen the very disappointing trend in recent years and in most RPGs, at least video game ones, that magic and having a spell caster class has been shoved entirely into a combat function. And I absolutely hate that.

 

Where is the utility magic that has uses outside of just combat? That might actually make an impact on the story of the game. Like for example:

 

Storywise the party has to get past a door that is locked.

 

Thief class: Use a lockpick.

 

Warrior: Use your strength to force the door open.

 

Wizard: Cast an Open spell.

 

A very simple example. To that practically each class has a different way to get past the same situations.

 

 

Or... "We have to get past the guards at the gate what are we supposed to do?"

 

You could again have several options depending on your class. A wizard for example could suggest using an Invisibility spell. If your proficiency in the spell is high enough, you get past the guards. If it's too low. They detect you and throw your out or something.

 

Or a Detect Magic spell. Like you have to find a certain artifact that is hidden among many fake ones and you try to detect an enchantment on it.

 

Or (minor tangent) have training a spell actually have an effect. For example...

 

Open spell Lvl1 = Open minor locks but door itself stays closed

 

Open spell Lvl 2 = The door unlocks and swings open too

 

Open spell Lvl 3 = You can open a heavy gate or something

 

---------

 

Detect Magic Lvl1 = You know there is something magical in the room

 

Detect Magic Lvl2 = You can pinpoint the source of magic directly

 

Detect Magic Lvl3 = You know what kind of enchantment it is

 

Spells could also have synergetic effects. Let's say you are stuck in a cage and your warrior companion lacks the strength to break it or something. You could for example use fire and ice spells on the cage in rapid succession to weaken it structurally. Hot -> Cold -> Hot -> Cold etc and then have your warrior try breaking it again.

 

 

This is something I'm missing entirely from most of current day RPGs. And I have high hopes from Obsidian that they might actually factor magic into the actual storyline as I remember Fallout doing that very well with it's science skills and the computer skills you could aquire during the story. And magic proficiency might just be the fantasy equivalent to that.

[DarthAdamRG]

Im all for this, completely offensive magic is quite boring in any game to me, and using the melee and raged classes this way as well as to not leave them out is a great idea.

[ZaZu]

This is a great idea! Remember those spells from IE games, when you summon some demon or a genie, and he can give you advice about what to do next? That was awesome!

 

Also: familiars! Familiars that you can talk to! Familiars that can affect your quests, or even have their own quests!

 

Damn. Playing as a mage would be so much fun with all of this.

[Little Abigail]

This is an absolutely wonderful idea and I fully support it.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Little Abigail

[SanguineAngel]

My god I would love to see some creative use of magic in RPGs for puzzle solving and in NPC interaction. Whether options presented as you describe or even dynamic effects. Chancing to cast charm on a guard, then talking to him for example.

 

But yes, I agree with you. I would like to see magic used abundantly outside combat in not just PE but all cRPGs

[The Dark One Avoozl]

Remember how in Fallout 2 if you were good enough with science and computers you could talk to the scientist NPCs like you were their equal or even teach them stuff? Which made it easier to get past certain situations. Imagine the same thing in Eternity with wizard NPCs. Would be glorious. Like a wizard NPC has problems with a ritual. Thankfully your magic proficiency is so high (or you found an old book somewhere that taught you the right way) that you can help the guy out and make his ritual succeed. Which could lead to great loot or a key to advance the story in some way later on. etc.

 

I'd love an RPG for once where your class knowledge actually matters. The only class that still gets that most of the time are thieves.

[cyberarmy]

Thieves already got many out of combat abilites like lock pick and pickpocket so i support both magi and fighters get some out of combat love too.

 

Maybe tricking NPC with illusions, kind of "waving hand" domination, freeze a llittle pond to get across or melt frozen water. Using familiars or polymorph spells to get access some areas. Telekinesis also can bring up nice options.

Fighters getting some unarmed intimidating options in dialogs( there are some in PST if memory serves right) or they can start tavern fight in order to distract some guards, break/bend objects if they are storng enough and also some good'ol taunting in Morte style.

[Infinitron]

Somebody likes Quest for Glory.

 

So do I, but remember this is not an adventure game.

[SanguineAngel]

Remember how in Fallout 2 if you were good enough with science and computers you could talk to the scientist NPCs like you were their equal or even teach them stuff? Which made it easier to get past certain situations. Imagine the same thing in Eternity with wizard NPCs. Would be glorious. Like a wizard NPC has problems with a ritual. Thankfully your magic proficiency is so high (or you found an old book somewhere that taught you the right way) that you can help the guy out and make his ritual succeed. Which could lead to great loot or a key to advance the story in some way later on. etc.

 

I'd love an RPG for once where your class knowledge actually matters. The only class that still gets that most of the time are thieves.

 

Yeah, I think there were quite a few situations, especially in the late game, where puzzles like that had different solutions based on proficiency (which could be based partly on class in other games)

[General_Disarray]

i'd be all for this. A mage would be my first choice more often in games if I had out-of-combat abilities. Instead I often end up being a rouge so I can go everywhere I want to go.

[SanguineAngel]

Somebody likes Quest for Glory.

 

So do I, but remember this is not an adventure game.

 

Nor is it an ARpg and so out of combat challenges are expected, it would be nice for class and skills to matter as much out of combat as in it.

[Volourn]

I definitely agree about non combat spells. I hope we get lots of them.

[Infinitron]

Somebody likes Quest for Glory.

 

So do I, but remember this is not an adventure game.

 

Nor is it an ARpg and so out of combat challenges are expected, it would be nice for class and skills to matter as much out of combat as in it.

 

Sure enough, but expecting lots of QfG-style environmental puzzles may be taking it too far.

[SanguineAngel]

Somebody likes Quest for Glory.

 

So do I, but remember this is not an adventure game.

 

Nor is it an ARpg and so out of combat challenges are expected, it would be nice for class and skills to matter as much out of combat as in it.

 

Sure enough, but expecting lots of QfG-style environmental puzzles may be taking it too far.

 

I don't know. QfG was an RPG/Adventure hybrid. In a tabletop RPG you can certainly expect plenty of non-combat challenges. I suspect the limitations of early computing forced those RPGs down a very combat focused route - as combat was much easier to control for the programmer. Even then, games such as PST and BG2 tried to introduce those out of combat elements where they could.

 

We're at a level of technology now where I suspect that we can evolve that element of the cRPG much further, if the devs are willing to try.

[Nakia]

The TES games contain many non-combat spells. Illusion with charm. The ability to conjure up light. Open locks and many more. If any thing in my opinion there are too many spells. I do hope that PE will have a variety of spells. Maybe different sub classes of magic users will focus on different types of spells. Since we are harkening back to the old games I imagine we will get a good selection of spells including these non-combat spells.

[The Dark One Avoozl]

Sure enough, but expecting lots of QfG-style environmental puzzles may be taking it too far.

 

I'm not expecting tons of puzzles revolving around classes (though some would be nice to feel that the class you chose matters at least a little). But when I play as a wizard I want to at least feel like a wizard storywise. Not not just some walking flamethrower.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I don't like feeling pressured to take a rogue 24/7 because I might miss some treasure. Knock spells and Break lock please

[cyberarmy]

Hıımm conjuring some food with our wizards and poisoning them with our thieves.

And then our fool fighter eats it all...

[Lysen]

If a mage have Open spell, I'll kill him/her with my lockpicks. It means that playing a thief class will be obsolete - why will you need a thief at all if you can open locks, detect traps or even steal with a mage? On a second thought, it depends on what kind of magic system they will use. If it is memorization, for example, it can't be that bad because you will need to memorize a lot of Open or Detect spells. I'm not against non-combat magic, but it should be more balanced.

[SanguineAngel]

If a mage have Open spell, I'll kill him/her with my lockpicks. It means that playing a thief class will be obsolete - why will you need a thief at all if you can open locks, detect traps or even steal with a mage? On a second thought, it depends on what kind of magic system they will use. If it is memorization, for example, it can't be that bad because you will need to memorize a lot of Open or Detect spells. I'm not against non-combat magic, but it should be more balanced.

 

Because, in a system where spells can be used outside of combat, so you would also expect to be able to use ALL classes outside of combat. So thieves wouldn't just be there to unlock loot you couldn't otherwise reach but would instead be able to use their own abilities to navigate interesting challenges.

Edited September 20, 2012 by SanguineAngel

[General_Disarray]

If a mage have Open spell, I'll kill him/her with my lockpicks. It means that playing a thief class will be obsolete - why will you need a thief at all if you can open locks, detect traps or even steal with a mage? On a second thought, it depends on what kind of magic system they will use. If it is memorization, for example, it can't be that bad because you will need to memorize a lot of Open or Detect spells. I'm not against non-combat magic, but it should be more balanced.

 

Oh man if it was memorisation based you bet I would never be equipped for actual combat. Unless I could 'open' a goblins ribcage (ooooo, now that's food for thought..).

 

I would say make the mage spells less reliable than a lockpick. I don't think anybody wants mages to take over as rouges (I'm fond of both classes). The problem currently is these days magicians end up like squishy fighters with little to no out of combat abilities to make up for it.

[The Sharmat]

I love utility spells and lack of segregation of gameplay and story elements. All for this.

[Lady Evenstar]

Remember how in Fallout 2 if you were good enough with science and computers you could talk to the scientist NPCs like you were their equal or even teach them stuff? Which made it easier to get past certain situations. Imagine the same thing in Eternity with wizard NPCs. Would be glorious. Like a wizard NPC has problems with a ritual. Thankfully your magic proficiency is so high (or you found an old book somewhere that taught you the right way) that you can help the guy out and make his ritual succeed. Which could lead to great loot or a key to advance the story in some way later on. etc.

 

I'd love an RPG for once where your class knowledge actually matters. The only class that still gets that most of the time are thieves.

 

I would also like all classes to have out-of-combat utility--and for that to be balanced separately from combat prowess. Every class should feel useful in combat, and every class should contribute something useful to the party community. This needn't be an alternative way to do everything another class can do, but could also be a matter of complementary skills, e.g. tying professions to class so that if you want a blacksmith you need a fighter.

[actionjezus6]

Well hello there. I can already hear the people groan in front of their PCs as they read the topic title thinking it's another thread about what magic system to use in combat.

 

To relieve you. It's not. It's about something else I'm concerned with and I'm making this thread to maybe bring this to Obsidian's attention as Eternity is still in the development stages.

 

My concern is the use of magic OUTSIDE of combat. I've seen the very disappointing trend in recent years and in most RPGs, at least video game ones, that magic and having a spell caster class has been shoved entirely into a combat function. And I absolutely hate that.

 

Where is the utility magic that has uses outside of just combat? That might actually make an impact on the story of the game. Like for example:

 

Storywise the party has to get past a door that is locked.

 

Thief class: Use a lockpick.

 

Warrior: Use your strength to force the door open.

 

Wizard: Cast an Open spell.

 

A very simple example. To that practically each class has a different way to get past the same situations.

 

 

Or... "We have to get past the guards at the gate what are we supposed to do?"

 

You could again have several options depending on your class. A wizard for example could suggest using an Invisibility spell. If your proficiency in the spell is high enough, you get past the guards. If it's too low. They detect you and throw your out or something.

 

Or a Detect Magic spell. Like you have to find a certain artifact that is hidden among many fake ones and you try to detect an enchantment on it.

 

Or (minor tangent) have training a spell actually have an effect. For example...

 

Open spell Lvl1 = Open minor locks but door itself stays closed

 

Open spell Lvl 2 = The door unlocks and swings open too

 

Open spell Lvl 3 = You can open a heavy gate or something

 

---------

 

Detect Magic Lvl1 = You know there is something magical in the room

 

Detect Magic Lvl2 = You can pinpoint the source of magic directly

 

Detect Magic Lvl3 = You know what kind of enchantment it is

 

Spells could also have synergetic effects. Let's say you are stuck in a cage and your warrior companion lacks the strength to break it or something. You could for example use fire and ice spells on the cage in rapid succession to weaken it structurally. Hot -> Cold -> Hot -> Cold etc and then have your warrior try breaking it again.

 

 

This is something I'm missing entirely from most of current day RPGs. And I have high hopes from Obsidian that they might actually factor magic into the actual storyline as I remember Fallout doing that very well with it's science skills and the computer skills you could aquire during the story. And magic proficiency might just be the fantasy equivalent to that.

 

[Hobo Elf]

If a mage have Open spell, I'll kill him/her with my lockpicks. It means that playing a thief class will be obsolete - why will you need a thief at all if you can open locks, detect traps or even steal with a mage? On a second thought, it depends on what kind of magic system they will use. If it is memorization, for example, it can't be that bad because you will need to memorize a lot of Open or Detect spells. I'm not against non-combat magic, but it should be more balanced.

 

Actually, thieves had more important roles than just disarming traps and picking locks. Mechanically speaking a Magic-User could open locks and such, yes, but thieves had something a Wizard lacked and that was "street smarts". Every bit important as it sounds. They always knew where to get the best deals, who was untrustworthy and what was the safest place in town. Basically they acted as the party guide whenever they got into the bigger cities. I'd LOVE to see something like this implemented in PE. Social skills are every bit as awesome as combat skills, sometimes even more so.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Hobo Elf