Something I really didn't like in KotOR2, that I hope Obsidian doesn't repeat.

[Sylvius the Mad]

A big part of KotOR2's narrative involved revealing the Exile's past to the player. The Exile wasn't ignorant of his past, but the player was.

 

That's a huge problem.

 

Revealing the PC's past to the player during play worked in KotOR and Torment because the PC was just as ignorant of his past as the player was, so these revelations could be done entirely in-character, and nothing learned there rendered previously made decisions incoherent.

 

But in KotOR2, the player is denied information that should have informed the Exile's reactions to certain characters or events (Atris seems the most obvious).

 

Roleplaying is, I think, a process that relies on perceiving the world through the eyes of your character, not through your own. But if the player isn't given relevant information that his character does possess, the player isn't able to adopt his character's point of view.

 

For this reason, I'm a big fan of the blank slate character. Let us populate the mind of our PC. Let us have exhaustive knowledge of his background (to the extent that he possesses that knowledge). If there are gaps, let us fill those in ourselves, and don't have the game contradict us later.

 

I think KotOR, NWN, and NWN2 all did this well. Fallout and Fallout 2 did this well. Torment is perhaps the best game ever at this. But KotOR2's narrative pulled the rug out from under the player in terms of his design of the Exile's personality.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Sylvius the Mad

[Shadenuat]

Hey, it's Sylvius. Completely abandoned the ship after DA2, Sylvius?

 

Anyway, I agree with the point. Exile saying things she/he experienced somewhere which were never known to "player's Exile" was... confusing.

[FreezingShock]

Quite right! I do adore KotOR II, but at some points I really did feel like I needed to retcon some of my earlier statements, so to speak. For example, there's that moment on Peragus where you first feel the Force again. I knew nothing about what had happened, so I was like "Cool, let's continue." When I found out why the Exile lost her connection to the Force, I felt such a response was most unappropriate for the personality I had in mind for her.

Edited September 17, 2012 by FreezingShock

[Enoch]

It has its plusses and minuses. The main advantage being that you avoid tedious talk-at-the-player exposition. You show rather than tell. Plus, a pure "blank slate" character can strain verisimilitude, depending on the setting and backstory. (I.e., you either go with some amnesiac or "new guy in a foreign environment" cliche, or you have some rather forehead-smacking "Dude who grew up in Candlekeep asking who Oghma is" moments)

 

The primary disadvantage is that it takes the player out of the moment-- you're involved in a dialogue, thinking through how you're going to handle it, and the game throws you new information that changes the way you think about your own character in the middle of a conversation.

 

 

(I personally rather liked that element of KotOR2, but I'm probably more easily impressed by narrative cleverness than most gamers are.)

Edited September 17, 2012 by Enoch

[Amentep]

It has its plusses and minuses. The main advantage being that you avoid tedious talk-at-the-player exposition. You show rather than tell. Plus, a pure "blank slate" character can strain verisimilitude, depending on the setting and backstory. (I.e., you either go with some amnesiac or "new guy in a foreign environment" cliche, or you have some rather forehead-smacking "Dude who grew up in Candlekeep asking who Oghma is" moments)

 

The primary disadvantage is that it takes the player out of the moment-- you're involved in a dialogue, thinking through how you're going to handle it, and the game throws you new information that changes the way you think about your own character in the middle of a conversation.

 

 

(I personally rather liked that element of KotOR2, but I'm probably more easily impressed by narrative cleverness than most gamers are.)

 

I suppose you could create, in character creation, a way to "build a backstory" and have the game address it, but that would probably require more time and effort to check dialogues against than its worth would be.

 

I didn't mind KotOR 2 either, but maybe there's a way to address the problem by making sure if a generic entry background for the character is created, the dialogue reflects it?

[Tale]

I did like it in KOTOR 2. However, I also hope Obsidian doesn't repeat it. It worked for the novelty value, it's not something a whole lot of developers are trying to do or have done.

 

But it's a violation of player ownership over their own character. We're in the dark about our character's past because our character hasn't bothered to reveal it to us. Then I'm not so sure it's my character.

[Jozape]

The moment when Atris confronts you with the Exile's past would have been great had I known what he did.

 

I completely agree with Sylvius. In the future, I would like to know the important bits of my character's past and knowledge, so I can not only fully appreciate the writing, but properly role-play within the area of wiggle we're given by the writers.

[Infinitron]

Huge problem? Sounds like a matter of personal preference. I thought it was a fascinating narrative technique.

 

For some people, the fascination will outweigh the confusedness. For others, vice versa.

[Auxilius]

Agreeing with the man above. It's a good way to get to know the man you're controlling.

[Raithe]

Hm, Unless.. they could do in in a way of flashbacks within the game.... o O (queue Twilight Zone music....)

[Sylvius the Mad]

You shouldn't have to "get to know" the man your controlling. You created him. You should know everything about his mind from the moment you click "Done" at the end of character creation.

[Infinitron]

You shouldn't have to "get to know" the man your controlling. You created him. You should know everything about his mind from the moment you click "Done" at the end of character creation.

 

I agree that it is an unconventional approach for an interactive game, but it works fine in many movies and books, and that's what Obsidian were trying to aim for I suppose.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Infinitron

[Amentep]

You shouldn't have to "get to know" the man your controlling. You created him. You should know everything about his mind from the moment you click "Done" at the end of character creation.

 

I didn't know who Oghma was, despite growing up in Candlekeep in BGI. The point of PST was to find your past so arguably the whole story was getting to know the man I was controlling. FO1 and 2 I could only create a background as far as the parameters of the game (start in a vault, start in a tribe) would let me.

 

A video game can't actually let everything you know in your mind exist at the end of character creation like PnP; therefore there will always be things that are filled in for the player (even games that allow for a more robust background like Arcanum).

[Azzy]

My favourite bit of disconnect at the start of a game is when you find yourself in your family house and are asked to retrieve something from the kitchen. First thought: right which way would that be.

[Sylvius the Mad]

 

The point of PST was to find your past so arguably the whole story was getting to know the man I was controlling.

TNO didn't know his past either, so whatever sort of man he was had nothing to do with his past.

FO1 and 2 I could only create a background as far as the parameters of the game (start in a vault, start in a tribe) would let me.

But within those parameters, you could do whatever you wanted. The game didn't come back later and tell you about the girlfriend you'd left behind in the vault, and about how much you missed her. That would have been appalling.

 

I suppose I'm hoping that the approach they used in KotOR2 was a one-off experiment.

[Amentep]

The point of PST was to find your past so arguably the whole story was getting to know the man I was controlling.

TNO didn't know his past either, so whatever sort of man he was had nothing to do with his past.

FO1 and 2 I could only create a background as far as the parameters of the game (start in a vault, start in a tribe) would let me.

But within those parameters, you could do whatever you wanted. The game didn't come back later and tell you about the girlfriend you'd left behind in the vault, and about how much you missed her. That would have been appalling.

 

I suppose I'm hoping that the approach they used in KotOR2 was a one-off experiment.

 

I don't necessarily disagree, but on the other hand if you wanted to, you couldn't create a back-story that had you leaving your girlfriend in the Vault, so again there are parameters you can't really address in game unless the game tells you. I think the issue is really that those kind of things seem to work better when they are set upfront (you are the courier) rather than later (I did what?)

 

Mind you I saw the Exile reveal as an attempt to mirro the reveal from KotOR without resorting to telling the exact same story, too.

[Sylvius the Mad]

 

I don't necessarily disagree, but on the other hand if you wanted to, you couldn't create a back-story that had you leaving your girlfriend in the Vault

Sure you could. You just weren't ever given the opportunity to express that sorrow, but that doesn't mean the sorrow isn't there.

I think the issue is really that those kind of things seem to work better when they are set upfront (you are the courier) rather than later (I did what?)

That's absolutely true. I'd rather they weren't there at all (or their use was limited), but if they must exist the player needs to know about them during character creation.

Mind you I saw the Exile reveal as an attempt to mirro the reveal from KotOR without resorting to telling the exact same story, too.

Regardless of what it was trying to do, it broke roleplaying.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Sylvius the Mad

[Enoch]

Well, KotOR2 did use this kind of expository device far more heavily (and on more plot-central subjects) than any other game I can think of, but it's not something that is totally unique to that game.

 

Go read the dialogue response options that you get the first time you talk to Imoen in BG1, for example.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Well, KotOR2 did use this kind of expository device far more heavily (and on more plot-central subjects) than any other game I can think of, but it's not something that is totally unique to that game.

 

Go read the dialogue response options that you get the first time you talk to Imoen in BG1, for example.

There's a reason I didn't point to BG as an example of how it should be done.

 

I referred to KotOR2 because, as you say, it used this device extensively, and because it's a well-respected game made by these same developers.