Armour and weapon designs - a plea.

[Baudolino05]

As I've mentioned before, the LotR movies, I reckon, had a nice balance between realism & practicality and fantasy look.

 

To me they did a great job designing single sets of armors, but they made a mistake putting togheter armors of different periods (a mistake Tolkien didn't make).

Edited September 21, 2012 by Baudolino05

[Karranthain]

To me they did a great job designing single sets of armors, but they made a mistake putting togher armors of differnt periods (a mistake that Tolkien didn't make).

 

Yeah, the plate armour of Gondor troops was a bit jarring, but it did look pretty nice if you disregard that.

[The Sharmat]

Why does Middle Earth have to correspond exactly to our tech progression? Saruman and Sauron both had crude machinery even in the books.

 

Though I know in the original version of Middle Earth that all the humans had roughly comparable tech.

[Chunkyman]

I think Game of Thrones does a good job of keeping the armor fairly realistic while looking really good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As long as they don't do anything severely unrealistic (swords that weigh 300 pounds, chainmail bikinis, etc.), I'll likely be happy.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Chunkyman

[Baudolino05]

To me they did a great job designing single sets of armors, but they made a mistake putting togher armors of differnt periods (a mistake that Tolkien didn't make).

 

Yeah, the plate armour of Gondor troops was a bit jarring, but it did look pretty nice if you disregard that.

 

And what about full-plated pike wielder Uruk-hais ?

 

Why does Middle Earth have to correspond exactly to our tech progression? Saruman and Sauron both had crude machinery even in the books.

 

Though I know in the original version of Middle Earth that all the humans had roughly comparable tech.

 

The fact is that technology changes the way warfare works...A cavalry charge was less effective in XVI century in the XI century, for instance. So, you can't put thogeter William the Conqueror knights (Rohirrim) and late middle-ages Swiss mercenaries (Uruk-Hai).

Edited September 21, 2012 by Baudolino05

[Michał]

As a historian in spe I really love historical armour and weapons. That's why I would love to see "real-world" designs in PE.

I've got an impression that some of you my dear fellows tend to think "historical means boring". It's not true and I've got some cool (at least I think they are cool) armours and weapons to show.

 

Polish hussar armour

 

Husaria (Polish hussars) are post-medieval type of cavalry but I think those pieces of armour could be an inspiration for some designs in game.

Although it is uncertain whether hussars had wings during battle or not (there are two major theories - one says that wings were for parade only and other that hussars wore them during battle).

 

 

Footsoldier from eastern parts of Europe

 

(By the way, you can see inspirations and patterns from norman armour in armour of a guy above - it's because of Rurik, norseman who created Novogrod state)

Or this norman helmet

 

Those are cool (in my opinion of course) pieces of real world armour which, with some modifications, or even without any, would look really great in computer game.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Michał

[Karranthain]

Yeah, those looks pretty amazing!

 

I love that helmet design.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Karranthain

[Michał]

I also really like eastern helmets (or european ones influenced by eastern). For example

 

Hussar helmet

 

 

Or Iranian

 

 

I know that they are from early modern period, but in a world where we've got wheellocks (also early modern period) it doesn't matter so much.

[Umberlin]

I wish people weren't so quick to jump to the typical medieval, roman, germanic and the like designs. It's a selfish want but I've longed to see what I'd classify as 'ancient fantasy' taking weapon, armor, architecture, style and other designs from some of the most ancient primitive and advanced cultures in our own history, and giving them a fantastical twist or simply using them as an inspired basis. The sort of thing that might predate typical ideas of Chainmail and Plate armor, or the typical style of weapons we're used to.

 

There's nothing wrong with what we're used to, I've just seen it so many times . . . sure it can be done well, and it seems this is exactly what we're going with, but it would have been niced to pull from much, much earlier periods covering Ancient South American, Ancient Mid-Eastern and other areas. Ancient Persia, Ancient Sumeria and so many others have so much to offer from a purely stylistic point of view, where even the things that may have served the same function just really looked almost alien to the later variations. Not necessarily better ways of thinking, not by a long shot, but often different of the sort that makes a modern person wonder why they thought that was a good idea.

 

Sure even when faulty . . . if your fantasy world sticks with that line of thinking, then it's only faulty when compared with the more perfected variations that came later. For the times they lived and functioned in they were suitable.

 

In the end, well, game will be just fine with what it is pulling from, there's nothing wrong with what they've chosen. I'm looking forward to it. I just can't help but wonder, since we do have traditional fantasy races . . . what would have truly ancient elves used? Not the old perfected elves or the down troden elves or anything but the elves that, for lack of a better example, the equivalent of Humans that were just a step ahead of cavemen. What would they have used? Worn? These are the kind of things that I want to think about and see inspiration (note: inspiration, not carbon copies) pulled from ancient cultures for.

[Shardbearer]

Just because some decorative armor was used in real life does not necessarily make it any more functional than armor designed to look decorative and functional in a fantasy world. I only request it to be functional within the confines of the created world.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Shardbearer

[Michał]

@Shardbearer: If you are refering to hussar armours - those were pieces used in real combat (even if we support the theory about wingless hussars). Service in hussar chorągiew (unit) was prestigous for a nobleman since those soldiers were very best of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth army. And it was rooted in Polish culture to use highly ornamented armour and weapons (Poland was Antemurale Christianitatis or Bulwark of Christianity and constant contancts with Ottoman Empire influenced clothing, weaponry etc.)

[Shardbearer]

@Shardbearer: If you are refering to hussar armours - those were pieces used in real combat (even if we support the theory about wingless hussars). Service in hussar chorągiew (unit) was prestigous for a nobleman since those soldiers were very best of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth army. And it was rooted in Polish culture to use highly ornamented armour and weapons (Poland was Antemurale Christianitatis or Bulwark of Christianity and constant contancts with Ottoman Empire influenced clothing, weaponry etc.)

 

That's my point, if armor can be functional and ornamental in real life, it can certainly have both qualities in game. I guess what I'm trying to better enunciate is that it seems like some people don't want any armor that doesn't look like something already created in real life. I'm just saying it is possible to accomplish the goals of looking good and being functional with original designs as well. I'm not disagreeing with you.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Shardbearer

[Michał]

Yes, it is true. But quite often fantasy artists forget about functionality. And that bothers me.

 

So - ornamental and cool looking - YES

But also practical (if those armours and weapons were made not only for a paradeground but also for combat) and plausible.

[Brishingr]

The question to me is, looks version praticality, and looking at the designers, im betting the later.

 

Now that doesnt mean I want a unique weapon to be noticable, but for pete's shake where not teenagers, well not aleast me =\

[The Dark One Avoozl]

Footsoldier from eastern parts of Europe

 

 

You know an idea just popped into my head looking at that guy's axe and then thinking of the people that complain about oversized weapons. Look at that axe and tell me that that thing would do anything to this:

 

 

 

Kinda doubt that a weapon made to fight against regular humans (though armored) will be any help against giant fantasy monsters. So yeah there is even a believable reason for giant weapons to exist in the fantasy genre.

[Michał]

Oversized weapon wouldn't help much either. Only lances, pikes and other stuff like this. Slashing and bludgeoning weapons? Same effect as trying to kill somebody with paper cuts. Or break man's skull with pencil.

[Shardbearer]

Large bows and arrows, crossbows, Scorpions even, and I guess Cannons. I would NOT be meleeing something that large. That guy in the picture is facing the wrong direction.

[Monkcrab]

If we're being practical, you'd never want to melee something that large. One swipe of its claws and it'll kill you, regardless of godly armor. A man's innards is not made to withstand that sort of impact.

 

Since this a fantasy world, the best way to kill it would be some sort of magic and/or weapons plus enhancement. Weapons coated in quick-acting poison that attacks the nervous system? Also, well-aimed lightning bolts and poison gas. Cannons in strategic places, like the spinal cord or the skull, should also help bring it down. Even regular guns, with the type of bullet that explodes once it penetrates the target, will do a lot of damage.

 

You don't need bigger weapons, you need better tactics.

[Shardbearer]

If we're being practical, you'd never want to melee something that large. One swipe of its claws and it'll kill you, regardless of godly armor. A man's innards is not made to withstand that sort of impact.

 

Since this a fantasy world, the best way to kill it would be some sort of magic and/or weapons plus enhancement. Weapons coated in quick-acting poison that attacks the nervous system? Also, well-aimed lightning bolts and poison gas. Cannons in strategic places, like the spinal cord or the skull, should also help bring it down. Even regular guns, with the type of bullet that explodes once it penetrates the target, will do a lot of damage.

 

You don't need bigger weapons, you need better tactics.

 

The entire time I was reading that I was reminded of Mat Cauthon from the Wheel of Time.

[Little Abigail]

Oversized weapon wouldn't help much either. Only lances, pikes and other stuff like this. Slashing and bludgeoning weapons? Same effect as trying to kill somebody with paper cuts. Or break man's skull with pencil.

Yes, because slamming someone upside the head with a hundred pound weight feels like getting hit with a pencil.

 

Blunt force trauma will kill something just as dead as cutting them will.

[The Dark One Avoozl]

Anyway. The thought I get when reading this thread is that most people want a Medieval RPG and not a Fantasy RPG. I personally don't mind high fantasy stylized armor and oversized weapons. I kinda like them actually. At least it shows a different culture than our own. Cultures that have different materials and magic available for crafting their protection and weapons than us. Sure sometimes by our material standards they don't make sense (glass armor in Elder Scrolls anyone?) but as long as there is an in-story reason for why it works I can pretty much get behind everything. So what if that warrior is carrying around a 250 kg sword on his back and swings it with one hand? Maybe humanity has descended from giants in that setting and with enough training they have this level of strength or there are strength enhancing enchantments. It's like not being able to suspend your disbelief when someone uses magic. Magic is also not realistic. But we don't complain about that either now, do we?

 

Doesn't mean I want bikini armor but some really nice over the top stylized stuff I can easily get behind that.

 

 

P.S. lol at people thinking bikini armor originated from anime. Red Sonja anyone? Wonder Woman? Tons of old style greek hero movies that have the amazons in skimpy outfits? Sure anime has some extreme examples as well but they are hardly at fault for that trend at least not entirely.

[Tuco Benedicto]

Anyway. The thought I get when reading this thread is that most people want a Medieval RPG and not a Fantasy RPG.

I'm not sure where did you get that idea.

I just want characters that don't look like tasteless clowns, which is something that happens far too often in fantasy games. It's not even a matter of realism.

[Monkcrab]

Oversized weapon wouldn't help much either. Only lances, pikes and other stuff like this. Slashing and bludgeoning weapons? Same effect as trying to kill somebody with paper cuts. Or break man's skull with pencil.

Yes, because slamming someone upside the head with a hundred pound weight feels like getting hit with a pencil.

 

Blunt force trauma will kill something just as dead as cutting them will.

 

That depends on how many tons the thing you're trying to kill is.

 

To put into perspective, an average African elephant weighs 8.25 tons. A hundred pound is roughly 45 kilograms. Now, 8.25 tons is distributed between the entire body, and we can assume that the skull of the elephant will not be able to withstand too many hits from 45 kilograms blunt force, although precise penetrating force of more than 0.5 tons in the right places will do it much faster. That's also why older hunts with large animals tend to favor spears. The force of projectiles at speed can be much higher than slashing weapons.

 

However, how big is that thing, how many tons is it? I'd say it's about 6-8 times the size of an average African elephant. How much force do you need to bash in the skull of something that weighs 40+ tons, and with enough armor so that harpoon-whaling techniques won't necessarily work? Can something that size even be wielded, even accounting for Fantasy Muscle Physics? Large weapons are feasible to an extent, IMO, and I don't hate them. But blunt-force trauma-ing the thing show in the picture (specifically That Thing; smaller things can probably be killed) is going to be difficult. Not impossible, but not very plausible given the ratio of damage-per-blow and possible damage-taken-per-blow by the attacker. We can take much, much less damage than that thing, and it's probably not going to sit still.

 

NOW, if the materials are magical in the way that it defies gravity when lifted, then multiplies to mass when swung down, this will be very feasible for big weapons. Maybe this is how +3 Morningstars of Bashing work, who knows? (Blunt force trauma + projectiles, ala catapults and cannons, actually will work very well.)

 

p.s. I am actually okay with unrealistically large weapons, to an extent, being Asian and all. I just am a pedant.

[The Dark One Avoozl]

I'm not sure where did you get that idea.

I just want characters that don't look like tasteless clowns, which is something that happens far too often in fantasy games. It's not even a matter of realism.

 

Yeah the problem is. We are arguing taste. As I said. I like overstylized stuff. I'm a Warhammer 40k fan. I like over the top armor. I like Berserk which is mostly using realistic armor but on the other hand the main character is swinging around a 500 kg kinda sword shaped lump or iron. While the entire rest of the cast uses very regular medieval weapons. I can still get behind it because it's sold very well storywise.

 

Sure over the top designs can get silly. On the other hand there can be over the top designs that are freaking awesome. But that is all just a matter of the artist's skill and at the end of line. A matter of taste. Trying to shoehorn your kind of taste into something is one of the worst things you can do. As there could be an entire crowd of people that enjoy those over the top designs and would make a thread the exact opposite of this one. There is no right or wrong in this case.

 

That's why my first reply in this thread was to have both. You can appeal to both crowds and all of a sudden more people willing to buy the game. Maybe.

[Umberlin]

If we're being practical, you'd never want to melee something that large. One swipe of its claws and it'll kill you, regardless of godly armor. A man's innards is not made to withstand that sort of impact.

 

In the end this is why, while I support game balance between melee and magic/ranged for gameplay reasons, it always irks me a little to see games where you have a bunch of melee types hacking away at a 'insert horrific abomination here's' toenails. Obviously for fair play and balance they need to be functional though. Purely practical sides say the guy with the cute little sword versus the one that can turn your blood to acid isn't going to end well though.

 

On the other hand I did enjoy Shadow of the Colossus so any time I see a melee class in an RPG I always think of that game. Not really practical for the sort of game Obsidian are making though.