Avellone asks for your kickstarter ideas

[C2B]

Some Gamelab related stuff

 

http://www.realitypa...om/archives/494

 

 

http://www.control-o...oor-publishers/

http://www.zonablade...-a-kickstarter/

Edited July 3, 2012 by C2B

[funcroc]

http://www.comic-con...12_prog_sat.php

 

6:30-7:30 Gaming Kickstarter

[funcroc]

Gamereactor removed their Gamelab video interview with Chris Avellone...

[funcroc]

OT: http://www.gam3rcon.com/panels.html

 

"Writing for the Computer Gaming Industry"

3:45 PM to 4:30 PM | Theatre | FREE with Gam3rCon Admission

 

While the game-play, graphics, and physics of modern computer games are often the first things to attract players to a computer gaming title, it's often the rich histories, plots, and quests that keep them coming back for more. In some cases the stories have been so controversial or involving that they eclipsed the game in which they were placed (we're looking at you Mass Effect 3). Join our panel of veteran computer gaming writers as they share their stories about creating the narratives for the stories you love.

 

Featuring Neal Hallford (Betrayal at Krondor, Dungeon Siege), Anne Toole (The Witcher), Chris Avellone (Planescape: Torment, Fallout: Las Vegas), Haris Orkin (Call of Juarez, Dead Island), John Zuur Platen (Ghostbusters, F.E.A.R. 2: Project Origin), plus special guests TBA. Moderated by Jana Hallford, co-author of "Swords & Circuitry: A Designer's Guide To Computer Role-Playing Games".

[Undecaf]

Games Industry interview with MCA

 

An interesting tidbit:

 

Q: One last thing. Tempted by a Planescape Kickstarter?

 

Chris Avellone: Yes! Very tempted.

 

Q: It seems like a prime target...

 

Chris Avellone: Yeah - I think the challenges we've spoken about would all have to be considered and to be honest I don't know if I'd want to do it as a Planescape game - I think a better approach would be to ignore the D&D mechanics and respect what Planescape was trying to do and what the game did and see if you can do what Fallout did when it became the spiritual successor to Wasteland.

I think if you made a game using some of the concepts of Planescape, the metaphysical ideas and the plane travel, without using the D&D mechanics, you could actually come up with a much better game. With Torment, I'd argue that the D&D base actually, in places, got in the way of the experience. It was a lot harder to make a game with those ideas in it with D&D mechanics. So much that we had to break a lot of them. We had to ignore certain spells, change up the class mechanic so that you can switch at any time you like by remembering abilities.

That was stuff that D&D didn't allow for, it was to restraining in some respects. If we did do a spiritual successor, then I don't know if we'd use the Planescape licence or attach the mechanics, perhaps something that has a different feel to Torment.

[Wombat]

One thing sounds very odd here is that it sounds as if PS:T team had followed the rule of AD&D faithfully. That said, I agree that I think PS:T could have been better without any AD&D rule set influence and the logo.

 

In any case, I tend to find myself bugged when I hear non-conversation system discussions from Chris Avellone - I admit his talent in writing dialogues which gradually build PC-NPC relationship, eventually weaving customized stories for the players with different personalities. However, I was never happy with the game-play of Torment and/or Alpha Protocol - I cannot even agree with his post-mortem analyses on some of his past works, at least, about the game-play decisions. The more I value his other side, the more I get frustrated with some game-play designs by him.

[WorstUsernameEver]

One thing sounds very odd here is that it sounds as if PS:T team had followed the rule of AD&D faithfully.

 

No? He outright said that they broke a lot of the D&D rules stuff to make the mechanics and narrative they had in mind work.

[Gorth]

One thing sounds very odd here is that it sounds as if PS:T team had followed the rule of AD&D faithfully.

 

No? He outright said that they broke a lot of the D&D rules stuff to make the mechanics and narrative they had in mind work.

Disclaimer: Entirely possible that my memory is fuzzy and I remember it wrong. I do seem to remember an old interview where MCA discussed them breaking a lot of conventions (i.e. traditions, not rules) by deliberately designing a game where the protagonist would never have a sword, no armour, dieing wasn't the end of the game etc.

[Wombat]

One thing sounds very odd here is that it sounds as if PS:T team had followed the rule of AD&D faithfully.

 

No? He outright said that they broke a lot of the D&D rules stuff to make the mechanics and narrative they had in mind work.

You mean in this article? In any case, it's just a conventional joke about Planescape: Torment using AD&D rule set. Rather, the second sentence was what I really meant.

 

Disclaimer: Entirely possible that my memory is fuzzy and I remember it wrong. I do seem to remember an old interview where MCA discussed them breaking a lot of conventions (i.e. traditions, not rules) by deliberately designing a game where the protagonist would never have a sword, no armour, dieing wasn't the end of the game etc.

...and it begins with the death of the protagonist...I remember such an interview but - well, only remember vaguely, too. Avellone usually tries to counter the existing schemes - with some successes and failures. I admire such ambition in terms of content - he is remarkably good at this direction. In fact, I got inclined to believe it must be a part of source of his creativity.

 

However, when it comes to game-plays... You know, successful RPG companies like Bethesda and Bioware managed to have established the base game-plays, which manage to keep a certain number of players even if they are not my cup of tea. I imagine Kickstarter pledgers would be tolerant people. Maybe different market, different audiences but..well...Avellone's hardcore mode may turn out to be a "Nightmare mode"...I wonder if I'm joking again except that the joke is on me when I play his games.

[Starwars]

You know, I love Chris but does anyone else feel like the whole "spiritual successor to Torment" is setting up for a massive disappointment? I have no doubt that Chris can deliver more incredible games and I would personally love to see it, but Torment is a game that has risen to "godhood" so to speak and comparing any new game with it is gonna do the new game a disservice because people will expect impossible things.

[Auxilius]

It's pretty much going to happen, yup. F:NV was so successful because F3 crippled fans' expectations. Among other reasons of course.

 

IMO, Chris is a little obsessed with P:T, for objective and subjective reasons. People keep telling him how that game was great and want a (spiritual) sequel but they don't realize they are infuating him with the Planescape way of doing things.

I want Chris to keep a fresh mind on how to write a good RPG, not to do a copy/paste of what has been done 15 years ago. P:T isn't perfect and while the choices, consequences and meaningful dialogues made it great, there is still a lot of room for new possibilities and fresh ideas.

[Wombat]

Considering what kind of format would fit PS:T, long time ago, I came across a site which categorized it under adventure games. Indeed, Avellone likes this genre.

 

Also, I've gotten an impression that it can be well represented in Japanese adventure game, mostly known for romance adventure games, rather than their point-and-click counterparts. For, at the point that it builds up its story based on PC-NPC relationships. I, myself, don't play these games but I can access quite lot of resources on the net. Most of them seem to be romance-focused but there seem to be some exceptions. It's quite an established genre and there are many spin-offs, so I can glance at some story elopements, finding some of them quite good. I have no direct information about game-play factor, though. The format appears to be interactive novel + any game-play appropriate to given settings. 2D graphics are popular mainly due to the anime cultures (Rather, I don't know why North American go for 3D even with the genres such as strategy and/or simulation games). At least, the format itself seems to be low budget and, the 2D part doesn't need to be anime style.

 

However, the possible issue is that Avellone still seems to want to make an RPG - not an interactive novel with RPG combat game-play, for example. He seems to want interweave RPG factors with narrative ones. IMO, Fallout is much more successful in this respect but I feel Avellone's writings and that format conflict each other at times. In fact, you need to put much point in wisdom and intelligence to get most of the story of PS:T while you can still enjoy low INT conversations in Fallout. For example, Dead State gave up conversation-related abilities since they found it would rather harm the dialogue choices. And IMO, too, limiting certain simulation factor in favor of narrative factor makes sense when the resulting game-play is expected to offer less than more to the players. Open narrative based on simulation would be an ideal but sometimes, less is more, I think. Also, in Fallout, comic factor is one of the key essences while PS:T was more serious story with some occasional humor. In any case, despite his ambition, I feel Avellone's games have quite many parts where the system and the content step on the toe of each other.

 

That said, a possible alternative solution in Planescape setting would separate resources for physical ability scores and mental ones since mental part plays quite a huge role in such a setting. For putting them in the same resource pool like in the original PS:T simply ends up with encouraging the players to invest on mental ability scores.

[sorophx]

You know, I love Chris but does anyone else feel like the whole "spiritual successor to Torment" is setting up for a massive disappointment?

only if you thought it was the greatest game ever (which it wasn't). they would only need to make it as good as MotB, would be enough for a Kickstarter project (the scope and all).

 

since they have Onyx now, and a lot of unused assets from Dungeon Siege 3, I'd imagine a good chunk of work would be just designing the progression and rearranging objects in the editor. so they can focus on a good combat system this time and make this new game what PS:T should've been always: a great dungeon crawler with a cryptic story and tons of C&C

[Wombat]

I wouldn't like to mention this but how do you imagine the current financial state of Obsidian? In any case, I'd like to see a solid game made by a small team, who can share their concept.

[Nepenthe]

I'm thinking that's a roundabout way of saying there's no way they're going to get (even) the Planescape license for a game of this type.

 

Of course, Beamdog managed to get a lot of people on board for the BGEEs, but I think the leap to kickstarter might be too large for the relevant license holders.

 

Now I'm mostly wondering why they don't flat out say it.

[sorophx]

why would we want the PS license? I'd rather see an original setting (or a setting that they already have rights to)

[Spider]

I don't think the PS license is even available to get should they want to. Maybe Hasbro has changed their mind, but when they discontinued the setting they simply didn't want any video games made using it.

 

Also, licensing fees and restrictions make it much more appealing to create their own IP for this (and it would also add more exploration to the player).

[Starwars]

I think I'd rather have them do just... I dunno, just an old-school top down thing that is very text-heavy as Torment was. Then go in new directions from there. I think it'd be terrible to just try and "copy" or in some ways cash in on what Torment did. And it would be setting up for disappointment.

[Undecaf]

why would we want the PS license? I'd rather see an original setting (or a setting that they already have rights to)

 

I'm inclined to agree here. Rather create something new with similiar core values to PS:T. Like MCA implied in the interview, a game that is to PS:T like what Fallout was to Wasteland.

[Wombat]

I don't know how much flexible Onyx is but I tend to imagine it is designed for mostly consoles and PC.

 

What bugs me is that , in PS:T, reading occupies quite a heavy part - even more than Fallout series. And if the designers try to combine action game-play with lot of dialogue reading, it often doesn't work well. Even dating back to the time PS:T released, it was one of the most dialogue heavy games. With such "slow-paced" format, TB/SIM game-plays, outside, of course, adventure games, seem to work. Personally, I don't like to see dialogues cut due to such reasons anymore and possible sequel to be something which seek for its new players even into new reading devices such as tablets. If some people do miss the other game-plays of PS:T, then, something like BGEE could be a possible compromise, which is to be released for various devices. Personally, I'm not convinced that Infinity Engine game-plays are necessarily tied to PS:T, though. To be honest, I'm very tired of seeing games have been adjusting to console gamers who don't have habits of reading. They cost lot of money but the most of it goes for graphics and polishing - risky even just as a business, especially without massive financial backing typically known as publishers. If you cannot get a publisher for a project, you may not even be able to pay your employees. At times, publishers may not be able to even pay straight.

[Spider]

Though to be fair, Torment would probably have been a better game if the amount of text in it was reduced. Now I love torment to bits, so I certainly don't mind the amount of text in it, or at least didn't when it came out. But I'm pretty sure a skilled writer can get the same experience using maybe two thirds of the words (or even half). I think even MCA has said so himself at some point.

[Gorth]

Though to be fair, Torment would probably have been a better game if the amount of text in it was reduced. Now I love torment to bits, so I certainly don't mind the amount of text in it, or at least didn't when it came out. But I'm pretty sure a skilled writer can get the same experience using maybe two thirds of the words (or even half). I think even MCA has said so himself at some point.

Probably a mix of reducing the word count, maybe split of the text in smaller chunks (less "wall of texts") and maybe more show instead of tell? The latter may be more demanding on assets and budgets though, when needing to illustrate points.

[Giantevilhead]

Given the limitations in technology, I think they really should have made Planescape: Torment into a point and click or an adventure game rather than an action RPG.

[sorophx]

it's easy to say "they should've" with the magical power of hindsight at your disposal. but, having the AD&D license and the Infinity engine, I don't think they would've ever considered anything other than an RPG. if anything, they showed you can push the perceived limits of the genre in at least one direction.

 

[Wombat]

I guess the discussion went into a loop here.

 

As far as my understanding goes, the users choice on stats opening up to game-plays of IE combat and ADV-ish dialogue options/some point and clicking is the core mechanic of PS:T. For me, compared with Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, PS:T's IE combat part feel weak. That said, they are, indeed, considered as one the established forms of RPG in computer gaming history but they cannot be only one possible form for "RPG."

 

I think, in PS:T, PC-NPC interactions and the story-resulted from it was much more strong part compared with stats-based "interactions." Personally, I wanted the RPG to be developed to explore social interactions rather than stat-based simulations. Some may say it's just making an RPG into an interactive novel but, how about this article of J.E. Sawyer? To some extent, it's a social simulation and the focus is more on the social choices than on stat-related one. Also, Avellone, repeatedly, talks about how Sawyer exploited the conflict of NCR and the legionnaires in his play-through of FONV. Stats-based reaction may be cool but, there are also rooms for RPG genre to explore "social simulation", or role-playing. Of course, in FONV's case, these elements are balanced. However, for something like PS:T, I'd like to see more focus on social interactions, which is typically known as C&C but how the players dealt with NPCs unfolding customized stories is one of an important part especially in narrative focused RPGs. Even if it may not be the intended core mechanic of PS:T, it is probably how PS:T is remembered.