Open Letter to Obsidian

[Tigranes]

I think Obsidian would love to make a proper old school RPG, they just strongly believe that it would probably spell the end of their company, at least in its current form (i.e. high-profile, high-budget titles). Whether they're right or not we will probably never know, but in the end you can only speak what you do - i.e. they can't release a more streamlined, console-friendly game like DS3 then say "Oh, we think people that can't handle making 6 characters are stupid".

[ShadowScythe]

Well Troika's insistence on sticking to the old school games kinda killed them...Obsidian probably doesn't want to go the same way. And to be fair compared to other rpg developers they've still retained a lot of depth and choice and consequences. Even DS3 for all its consolisation has far deeper mechanics and branching storyline than the stuff Bioware and Bethesda have been making recently (Skyrim in particular looks like the most dumbed down game I've ever seen).

[Sacrosanct]

Well Troika's insistence on sticking to the old school games kinda killed them...Obsidian probably doesn't want to go the same way. And to be fair compared to other rpg developers they've still retained a lot of depth and choice and consequences. Even DS3 for all its consolisation has far deeper mechanics and branching storyline than the stuff Bioware and Bethesda have been making recently (Skyrim in particular looks like the most dumbed down game I've ever seen).

 

What have you seen of Skyrim to make you think that way? I've only seen a few screens though haven't looked around too much. It surely can't possibly be any more dumbed down than Oblivion? You'd have to have a game that literally plays itself to achieve that.

[ShadowScythe]

Well Troika's insistence on sticking to the old school games kinda killed them...Obsidian probably doesn't want to go the same way. And to be fair compared to other rpg developers they've still retained a lot of depth and choice and consequences. Even DS3 for all its consolisation has far deeper mechanics and branching storyline than the stuff Bioware and Bethesda have been making recently (Skyrim in particular looks like the most dumbed down game I've ever seen).

 

What have you seen of Skyrim to make you think that way? I've only seen a few screens though haven't looked around too much. It surely can't possibly be any more dumbed down than Oblivion? You'd have to have a game that literally plays itself to achieve that.

 

The game no longer has attributes, no intelligence nothing. You just have health, stamina and mana. The skills have been cut down to 18 skills. The game suffers from jack of all trades syndrome in that you could easily master a lot of the main skills in a single playthrough (Todd Howard once mentioned how this one player ran a warrior in a oblivion but then found he was better at magic and Todd felt that the guy should've been allowed to become a better mage in that warrior build). The Dragons are not scripted but completely randomly generated meaning they run off that horrible Radiant AI and therefore are incredibly dumb (and the dragon battle in E3 showed just how dumb they were- such a massive let down). Armour is being "streamlined" downed to an armour set, boots and a helmet. Weapons seem to just have a damage stat and that's more or less it judging from some inventory screens.

 

The majority of wildlife no longer attacks you unless you attack first, making exploration even easier than before. And finally level scaling is set up more or less so that nothing is difficult at all (any region you visit scales to your level, but after you visit that place that region will be stuck on the level it was when you explored it- so there's basically no difficulty when everything is scaled down).

 

But we're going off topic so I think we should stop here and take it to the skyrim thread.

[Lycaerix]

I think Obsidian would love to make a proper old school RPG, they just strongly believe that it would probably spell the end of their company, at least in its current form (i.e. high-profile, high-budget titles). Whether they're right or not we will probably never know, but in the end you can only speak what you do - i.e. they can't release a more streamlined, console-friendly game like DS3 then say "Oh, we think people that can't handle making 6 characters are stupid".

 

I would actually be quite happy to be a kind of subscriber to Obsidian, paying a monthly fee, getting exclusive "Thanks for supporting us" goodies every so often, DLC, whatever if it helps them stay independent and do what they love. I would be quite happy knowing that I can contribute to a developer I love on a more regular basis if it means they always make games that THEY love to make.

 

Maybe I'm just odd? *shrug*

 

Well Troika's insistence on sticking to the old school games kinda killed them...Obsidian probably doesn't want to go the same way. And to be fair compared to other rpg developers they've still retained a lot of depth and choice and consequences. Even DS3 for all its consolisation has far deeper mechanics and branching storyline than the stuff Bioware and Bethesda have been making recently (Skyrim in particular looks like the most dumbed down game I've ever seen).

 

Troika became legends and their games will be remembered forever. When GOG upped their games, I was happy to buy them all over again. I hope that, at some point, they up ol' Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines so that I can once again support it. Unfortunately I believe Activision (the devil incarnate) own that IP and are unlikely to ever allow it to go DRM-free.

 

Troika were a fantastic developer and, as I said, too great for their time. I firmly believe that if they had to come back, it would be as a phoenix rising from the ashes--one helluva sight to behold.

 

Regardless, I do, fully, agree with you--even DS3 with all its consolisation remains a far more enthralling experience than ANY hack-and-slash game ever, because it had a really, incredibly talented developer design it.

 

If I said this anywhere else, I'm sure that I would be royally flamed, but Obsidian is a better RPG developer than BioWare and a VASTLY better RPG developer than Bethesda (seriously, have Bethesda ever actually made a single REAL RPG, or just an action adventure romp with a few hack-and-slash RPG mechanics while offering no tangible choices, consequences, etc? Think about it. The best thing that happened to the Fallout franchise since its revival is when Obsidian worked on New Vegas).

 

BioWare just has better marketing, but they sold their souls to EA and it's been starting to show quite a bit recently.

 

Obsidian needs to remain as independent as they possibly can, and I would love to do anything in my power to keep them that way.

 

Also, if I ever win the lottery (seriously), I'm going to come knocking on Obsidian's door and ask if I can help them make the games they want to make.

 

I honestly wish Obsidian the best and I never, ever, want to have happen to them what happened to Troika. But I truly, honestly wish that they would go back to their roots.

 

Even small developers like Piranha Bytes have their fame and loyal cult followers, even a game as "hardcore" (I hate using that word) as the first Witcher game, made by a completely unknown developer at the time, became famous because it stuck to what it believed in--they didn't try to please ANYONE but themselves.

 

I kind of wish I could just give Obsidian a hug and tell them that they have some really die-hard fans out there, that we love their games but we know that there's the mother of all gems just waiting to be put together that will show the world what a REAL developer can do.

 

Obsidian, the devs who gave me a character like Kreia, none have matched some of the experiences you've given me over the years (Planescape & KotOR2, specifically). Remember what made you GREAT! It's time for a revolution, kids

Edited June 25, 2011 by WulfenMortys

[Alpha]

I think is too early to judge Skrim.

[MonkeyLungs]

Regardless, I do, fully, agree with you--even DS3 with all its consolisation remains a far more enthralling experience than ANY hack-and-slash game ever, because it had a really, incredibly talented developer design it.

 

Dungeon Siege 3 is the best hack n slash ever ... in your opinion. Is there a man at your home with a gun to head right now? Do you need me to call the popo?

[ShadowScythe]

Monkey Lungs enough with the antagonism over everyone who enjoys this game. You make ridiculous accusations like people being intellectually dishonest and having guns to their heads and have you thought....just maybe thought...people might actually like this game? OH THE HORROR.

 

I mean, I hate Bethesda games- but I don't go crying about it all the time and declaring all TES fans as intellectually dishonest fantards. We get it. You hate the game, now you can either offer some constructive criticism about it or maybe have a proper debate about some mechanics and storylines (read: no freaking ad hominem) or...you can just move on.

 

@WulfenMortys: Interesting points...I'm sad Troika's gone too Isn't Tim Cain working on an MMO with NCsoft though? Hopefully that can lead on to more SP RPGs by him as well.

Edited June 26, 2011 by ShadowScythe

[Vilhelm]

Dungeon Siege 3 is the best hack n slash ever ... in your opinion. Is there a man at your home with a gun to head right now? Do you need me to call the popo?

 

People have differing opinions. Shocking! Seriously, you're obnoxious and your answers are bordering on bannable offences.

[Bakercompany86]

I was a huge Black Isle fan, and after FO:NV and Dungeon Siege 3 Obsidian has my confidence. I hope Bethesda brings them in on more projects.

 

Dungeon Siege 3 is definitely the best console dungeon crawler i've played. I haven't finished it yet but at level 22 I can say that i've had a blast doing every single side quest I could find. The combat system is brilliant and playing Reinhart has a great feel. Hardcore is the only difficulty to play this game on.

 

There are a few minor things i'd change about DS3, but certainly nothing game breaking. Great game Obsidian.

[MonkeyLungs]

Monkey Lungs enough with the antagonism over everyone who enjoys this game. You make ridiculous accusations like people being intellectually dishonest and having guns to their heads and have you thought....just maybe thought...people might actually like this game? OH THE HORROR.

 

I mean, I hate Bethesda games- but I don't go crying about it all the time and declaring all TES fans as intellectually dishonest fantards. We get it. You hate the game, now you can either offer some constructive criticism about it or maybe have a proper debate about some mechanics and storylines (read: no freaking ad hominem) or...you can just move on.

 

@WulfenMortys: Interesting points...I'm sad Troika's gone too Isn't Tim Cain working on an MMO with NCsoft though? Hopefully that can lead on to more SP RPGs by him as well.

 

People are intellectually dishonest here. That's, like, my opinion man.

 

The dude said this was the best hack n slasher ever. I had a solemn duty to tease him about it. Why do you guys get your panties alll twisted up over it?

 

Yes people might like the game, believe it or not I think it's an OK title. I don't hate it at all. I just think all you fanboys gushing big praise here need to be counterbalanced because the game has serious issues.

 

 

Dungeon Siege 3 is the best hack n slash ever ... in your opinion. Is there a man at your home with a gun to head right now? Do you need me to call the popo?

 

People have differing opinions. Shocking! Seriously, you're obnoxious and your answers are bordering on bannable offences.

 

Bannable offense for what? I just teased the guy about calling DS3 the best ever! You know, asking him if someone was forcing him to say that. The OP is perfectly entitled to say that DS3 is the best hacknslash ever and I am going to call BS on that every time I hear it. So what if I think the guy has horrible taste in hack n slash games it doesn't mean I dislike the guy. I just think he is wrong.

 

Some of you guys sure are sensitive ... A little DS3 co-op should cheer all you guys up! You should go play with each other.

 

 

I would love to see:

 

-New Characters

-New Dungeons

-New Loot

-New Game +

-Harder Difficulty (more mobs, more minibosses, and insane loot)

-Ranked Endless Battle (constant waves of enemies, mini-bosses, and bosses) One room endless enemies play till you die with just yourself or friends with an online ranking.

-Increased Level Cap (50 or higher)

-New Skills

-New Talents

-Ability to respec proficiencies (Limit one per playthrough to avoid abuse)

 

This is my favorite game I've played in a while and I love the fact I can game with friends in a drop in drop out scenario (Kinda like life friend drops in while I'm playing and they can pick up the controller and start playing with me). So yeah I know I'm not alone in saying I'd pay for more content for something which I enjoy this much.

 

Local co-op is a good thing.

[Lycaerix]

Bannable offense for what? I just teased the guy about calling DS3 the best ever! You know, asking him if someone was forcing him to say that. The OP is perfectly entitled to say that DS3 is the best hacknslash ever and I am going to call BS on that every time I hear it. So what if I think the guy has horrible taste in hack n slash games it doesn't mean I dislike the guy. I just think he is wrong.

Oh, sorry, you're talking to me? I didn't realise

 

Well, I've made it clear from the onset that I don't like the hack-and-slash sub-genre of RPGs (I find it tedious, mundane, repetitive, monotonous and flat-out boring):

The one sub-genre of RPG I've never been able to stand (hack-and-slash) they've managed to wow me with (Dungeon Siege III).

I completely understand that hardcore cRPG fans will find fault with DS3, I also completely understand that hardcore hack-and-slash fans will find fault with DS3. That was my point--it's an attempt at pleasing too many people at once (spreading themselves too thin) and thus not pleasing anyone at all.

 

However, some of us see past it and see how much went into it and that's what makes it stand out--that it is a genre that we probably never would've even looked at had Obsidian not developed it.

 

I've played and owned all the Diablo games, I've played and own Titan Quest, Sacred, that ghastly Silverfall game amongst others. The problem isn't with my taste in hack-and-slash games so much as the fact that they just hold absolutely zero appeal to me. The fact that I own so many of them attests to the fact that I have TRIED liking them and failed.

 

I consider myself an RPG gamer first and foremost because of the depth and non-linearity involved. It feels a lot like reading a book but instead of reading another's story, you shape a story around yourself. There are, of course, linear games that I play to enjoy the stories of as well as certain mechanics implemented.

 

However, the hack-and-slash sub-genre of RPGs is nothing but bland.

 

I completely understand and appreciate that there are people who play and enjoy those kinds of games, I also understand that there is money in those kinds of games (hell, look at WoW) and I have no problem with people who like those kinds of games. The fact of the matter is simply that I don't.

 

So when I say that DS3 is the best hack-and-slash game I've ever played, it is said as an opinion, as a matter of subjectivity and relies, heavily, on the reader to use their comprehension to understand that it is the first hack-and-slash game that has ever successfully appealed to me as an individual who is primarily attracted to story-driven games.

[metamag]

Regardless, I do, fully, agree with you--even DS3 with all its consolisation remains a far more enthralling experience than ANY hack-and-slash game ever, because it had a really, incredibly talented developer design it.

 

I agree, this is by far the best combat I experienced in this genre, better than Titan Quest, Sacred 2, Torchlight, Diablo 2, Dragon Age 1,2, etc.etc. And from all the videos I've seen from Diablo 3 it will be better than that.

 

Can't wait for more content, expansions and sequels.

 

Although it is very silly to make such a stupid mistake with co-op camera and character non-persistency.

[GreasyDogMeat]

I'd say DS 3 is one of the best hack n' slash RPGs I've ever played. Hell, it is the best single player one I've played. Every one has been extremely tedious and they wear out their welcome. Finally beat the game today and I loved the ending I got.

 

I have my biases of course. Hack and slash RPGs are one of my least favorite sub-genre of RPGs. The only genre that I dislike more are MMORPGs which can burn in the fiery pits of hell. DS 3 fixes many of my biggest dislikes about these types of RPGs.

-Player death = death... Imagine that! In this game you have the chance of being revived by your buddy. If not you die, reload. Beats the snot out of 'lose your equipment and respawn at the nearest checkpoint with xp penalty rush back and try to collect your fallen equipment and finish the boss off' of every Diablo 2 clone out there.

-More complex gameplay. DS 3 really rewards constant swapping of combat stances and use of special abilities. I'm constantly moving around and trying abilities opposed to clicking and holding a button.

-Story driven. RPG story is important to me, and I'd find I was interested in seeing what would happen next. The average hack n' slash's motivation for continuation is what new junk can be picked up.

 

Its not perfect, but as a single player experience I was impressed. Unfortunately after a few hours of giving coop a try today I have to admit its bad. Its bearable with two people but three or more is a cluster**** mess.

-Thanks to the camera it was difficult to see what was happening in bigger fights. Spells fly, animal summons happen and you can't tell what the hell is going on until the dust settles. Being able to zoom in on the character would have made it much easier to manage. I could tell many people would get confused in this mode too. As battles wound down and the last of the enemy got mopped up I'd see team mates swinging at other team mates until they realized as the screen cleared that they were trying to kill a buddy.

-If someone died in a tough fight and the rest of the group needed to retreat they would be trapped in the area with the body of the fallen comrade.

-From time to time one person would want to go down one path, another would want to explore some other corner and we'd be sitting there unable to go anywhere until one person gave in and went with the rest or someone left in frustration. I understand that people need to stick together in coop, but more leeway should have been given. Maybe have some sort of extended radius around the host that coop buddies could go.

Edited June 26, 2011 by GreasyDogMeat

[Alpha]

^^^

 

totally agree with you 100%.

[ShadowScythe]

People are intellectually dishonest here. That's, like, my opinion man.

 

The dude said this was the best hack n slasher ever. I had a solemn duty to tease him about it. Why do you guys get your panties alll twisted up over it?

 

Yes people might like the game, believe it or not I think it's an OK title. I don't hate it at all. I just think all you fanboys gushing big praise here need to be counterbalanced because the game has serious issues.

 

Are you serious? You honestly don't see what's wrong with randomly attacking people and making personal attacks at them just because they like a game that you don't? If you think they are praising it too much then actually debate the mechanics with them, you know civilly and properly. Instead you make gross accusations and then claim that it's just your opinion man (DO YOU NOT SEE YOUR OWN HYPOCRISY?!). Seriously dude, this is too much, just stop, don't pretend you've done nothing wrong cause you have. If you can't learn to be civil just move on.

[Darkstarxxx]

yes ive been a long time fan also and played all the black isle games my self but not the new obsidian ones except new vegas which rocked bloddy loved it all of it and yes DS3 has great looks story and gameplay but the shared view with mp and not having your characters saved to ur own account both of which me and id say 99% of people cant deal with there is no way im gonna play 8 hours or even 10 mins of a game on someones game when i exit and dont keep anything Diablo 2 and dungeon siege 2 should be 2 games looked too when anyone makes a dungeon crawler hell id take a copy and paste of the old D2 with new gfx lol the game play is still fun till today and has unlimited replay value same with DS2 i remember with friends rerunning dungeons killing boss's for loots and even secret places and after game stuff it just made it kick ass and if any of you remember way back to the hidden chicken launcher from ds it was funny as hell

 

anyways tho great devs but poor mp choices and i prey they get resolved fast

[MonkeyLungs]

People are intellectually dishonest here. That's, like, my opinion man.

 

The dude said this was the best hack n slasher ever. I had a solemn duty to tease him about it. Why do you guys get your panties alll twisted up over it?

 

Yes people might like the game, believe it or not I think it's an OK title. I don't hate it at all. I just think all you fanboys gushing big praise here need to be counterbalanced because the game has serious issues.

 

Are you serious? You honestly don't see what's wrong with randomly attacking people and making personal attacks at them just because they like a game that you don't? If you think they are praising it too much then actually debate the mechanics with them, you know civilly and properly. Instead you make gross accusations and then claim that it's just your opinion man (DO YOU NOT SEE YOUR OWN HYPOCRISY?!). Seriously dude, this is too much, just stop, don't pretend you've done nothing wrong cause you have. If you can't learn to be civil just move on.

 

People are alot more harsh to me on a personal level than I to them. I get attacked multiple times a day in multiple threads. I don't care because this is the internet and we are debating a video game. You guys can attack me all you want, bring it on. It won't change the fact that this game is medicore and selling horribly. I just criticise the parts of the game I want to criticise and make a couple wisecracks every now and then. You guys take this so seriously its like I personally offend people when I slam the game. You have as much reason to 'move on' as I do.

 

And, I do think people are intellectually dishonest here, not everyone of course but plenty of the most adamant defenders aren't about to engage in actual discussion.

 

I have made my stance clear as day around here: I don't hate the game and see a solid foundation in it. However, it needed another year or so of dev time because the feature list is extremely slim and the MP is the Ultra Gimp. By feature list deficiencies I mean precisely that this game is missing: Free Mode for single player or MP. MP PvP. Trading. Persistent Character saves. Newgame+. Large maps. Individualized quests for the premade characters.

 

The game's MP camera is a serious technical deficiency that warrants an instant refund for unsatisfied customers in my opinion.

 

The game's severely lacking feature list is an insult to ARPG fans and Obsidian's failure to heed fan warnings before this game was released has cost them.

 

For the record: I have not done anything wrong. I'm just debating on an internet forum about a game. There was guy the other day insinuating all kinds of make believe things about me, and how I must be some kind of horrible person, or a thief, or someone who tries to cheat restaraunts out fo their food. His comments were 100% fantasy and also 100% ad homimen. I don't think he did anythng wrong, he's entitled to his opinion. He just couldn't come up with a better way to argue with me or maybe just lost his cool, happens to us all .. the guy is probably a great guy in real life so I'm not sweating it.

 

It's not my fault that this game is tanking hard and getting so much criticism across the internet and you guys don't have to get mad at me for pointing out the game's flaws. If you love the game and think its the best ever that's great but your taste sucks and I will continue to explain why. Heck I love Too Human (although I'd still only rate it 6.5) and you should see some of the stuff my own friends say about that game. You guys need to lighten up around here.

[Vilhelm]

Bannable offense for what? I just teased the guy about calling DS3 the best ever!

 

You told him to kill himself, which is not a very friendly thing to say and is usually frowned upon in more civilized internet societies.

[MonkeyLungs]

Bannable offense for what? I just teased the guy about calling DS3 the best ever!

 

You told him to kill himself, which is not a very friendly thing to say and is usually frowned upon in more civilized internet societies.

 

I absolutely did NOT. Read the thread. It isn't very nice to lie about people either.

 

He said DS3 was the best hack n slasher ever. I asked if someone had a gun to his head ... ie is someone forcing you to say this? That's hardly telling the guy to kill himself. I'm very anti suicide and would never recommend such an intense course of action over something so trivial.

 

The OP's original post was very good, he prefers real RPG's to ARPG's, so do I. He just think DS3 is the best ARPG ever and I think that's crazy talk. It doesn't mean I have even the slightest negative inclination towards the individual.

 

So Vilhelm I am going to politely suggest you stop lying about me. You can attack me and call me names, debate my opinions, deride my taste in games all you want but please don't lie about me.

[funcroc]

MonkeyLungs, I love you.

[Vilhelm]

You told him to kill himself, which is not a very friendly thing to say and is usually frowned upon in more civilized internet societies.

 

Oh, sorry, my bad. What you just said that no man with a sane mind (or unthreatened) would actually say they liked the game.

 

Still doesn't change the fact that people have opinions, and, believe it or not, they differ from yours. Obviously there's no fun allowed in your home when it comes to Dungeon Siege III.

[MonkeyLungs]

Liking the game and saying its the best ARPG ever are two different things. Im cool with people thinking this is the best hack n slah ever as long as they cool with me saying they are wrong.

 

The whole 'did some have a gun to your head when you said that?' is a really old joke and definitely not original material. Obviously it comes across more harsh to some of you than it does to me. It is definitely a far cry from suicide advocacy.

 

There is plenty of singe player short campaign fun to be had in Dungeon Siege. It's still a half baked, feature slim, unambitious title. The tethered camera in MP is a serious technical deficiency and Obsidian dropped the ball on this title. They should have aimed to make the most legendary ARPG for this generation of consoles and they should have started by making a really in depth and feature rich PC game that respects that platform. They then should have scaled back the game to port to consoles while making sure to take advantage of the consoles control scheme. What they did was make a title that isn't even ambitious for a console title and then ported it to PC. The sales and the longevity of this game will tell their own story.

[Lycaerix]

Liking the game and saying its the best ARPG ever are two different things. Im cool with people thinking this is the best hack n slah ever as long as they cool with me saying they are wrong.

 

How can a subjective truth be wrong?

[MonkeyLungs]

MonkeyLungs, I love you.

 

Because I provide you with the lulz, or because I'm an idiot, or is it more romantico than that?