Dragon Age 2

[Pop]

Weird to think that this might be the first Bio game since NWN1 that I don't finish with my first character. There are just so many little things - it's the death of a thousand papercuts. Nothing in itself is really awful, but every unimpressive thing taken together sums into a really disheartening whole. The impression that I'm getting is that this game really, really needed another year of development time. The gameplay would be imminently forgivable had the narrative and characters been good, but aside from Varric and Aveline (to an extent) I'm not warming to any of the characters so far, and all I'm missing at this point are Isabela and the Scottish DLC Prince.

 

The biggest thing is that DA2 seems to always tell and never show, especially in the first two acts. DA:O and ME benefited from a choice of character backgrounds that centered the Warden / PC and gave context to the way they acted. Hawke, on the other hand, is a total cypher. We only catch glimpses of his / her story - The in media res opening is exceedingly problematic from a characterization standpoint even with the "it's a story being told" handwave. When you transition from Act 1 to Act 2, there is literally no sense of time having any real meaning, even though it's a central aspect of the storytelling mechanism. The grief of your family over the events of the prologue is as hollow (more, even) as Fallout 3's father-child dynamic, because you spend literally less than 5 minutes with them before you're asked to become emotionally invested in their bland, trite lives. It keeps coming back up and you think "oh yeah, that thing that happened".

 

Then you get to Kirkwall, you spend a year working for some ill-defined group, the game resumes at the end of the year, and Hawke has "made a name for himself" despite the fact that you never see and are never really told exactly what you did. There is no sense of progression or accomplishment. You run into people who Hawke apparently knows but all they really say is "Oh hey Hawke I haven't seen you since that last time I saw you you sure are making a name for yourself heh heh have a look at my wares". Add to that a severe lack of direction despite the linearity of the game (you want to get to the Deep Roads apparently but it's never explained exactly why you want to, besides the fact that the plot wouldn't work without it) and everything else that seems half-finished and you have a seriously disorienting game experience. I'm really hoping it'll tighten up in the next acts, but from what I've read (even from pro reviewers operating on the 8-10 scale) the ending is pretty terrible.

 

There are times where the combat is good, at least! Specifically in Act ! there's a quest in a mine where the cheap respawning doesn't occur (and it's actually challenging!) and there's a beach area fight that's well-laid out and manages to be fun even with the standard "wave" combat template. There have been a few instances of potentially interesting choice & consequence, though I won't know how well they'll follow through until I manage to drag myself to the next act.

 

And I have to give special attention to how aggravating the influence system is. Everything about it. They characterize everything as point gain ("Varric rivalry +5", "Aveline friendship +10") despite the fact that friendship / rivalry is one axis and thus, point gain in one is point loss in the other. It seems actively deceptive to me. Like, just call it what it is - DA:O's influence bar with benefits for low scores. And it's still a ****ty system! Characters aren't consistent! Merrill is against slavery, but you'll only "gain rivalry points" with her if you choose pro / neutral slavery dialog when it refers to locking up mages. Every other time slavery comes up she is unperturbed in a hard, numerical sense even if she protests in dialog. Seriously confusing, seriously shoddy work. It's really flabbergasting.

 

By the by, Merrill is far and away the worst character Bioware has ever created. The general backstory of Tali circa ME2 + the mannerisms, temperament and personality of Aerie = Merrill. Awful, shameful, derivative nerdbait. Like every otaku's goddamn hyper-feminine schoolgirl fantasy given tribal tattoos and a Welsh accent.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Pop

[Pop]

Also hey hey hey guess what

 

EA included Securom on DA2 despite being under court orders not to do so! And it was never mentioned in any game materials! :D :D :D Have at 'em!

 

Edited March 12, 2011 by Pop

[Monte Carlo]

Thanks for that Pop, well-written, considered and cogent.

[greylord]

I thought the general opinion was that the "die hards" who've been buying Bioware games for 10 years are just the people looking for dating sims.

 

It's not like this game is Neverwinter Nights. Which is a terrible game that only appeals to Diablo fans and custom content. Or Mass Effect, which is a corridor shooter for Xbox kiddies. There simply is no consistency to make the claim that this is a radical divergence anymore than half the games Bioware has made this century. Most of their games are different.

 

Bioware even got this awkward reputation as a great PCRPG developer when prior to DAO they'd been focusing on Xbox games for the past 3 titles.

 

I love custom content!

 

You saying I'm an Xbox Kiddie?

[greylord]

Also hey hey hey guess what

 

EA included Securom on DA2 despite being under court orders not to do so! And it was never mentioned in any game materials! :D :D :D Have at 'em!

 

 

I know they said there wasn't, but I didn't know of any court order that said they couldn't?

[Monte Carlo]

IIRC that was with regards to Spore? A court said that they couldn't use SecuROM without declaring it. SecuROM is a freaking virus / spyware PoS.

[Pop]

Yeah, from the sound of it they repackaged it under a different name (through Sony I think) to get around the court order. I've got it on pretty good (hacker) authority that the SecuROM should be only for release date checking in non-EA Store copies, and completely missing in Steam copies. If you were somehow daft enough to get a copy from the EA Store, you probably have the whole SecuROM experience going right now.

 

I've compiled this

of EA PR over the course of DA2's development cycle. The climber is EA. His parents are gamers. Edited March 12, 2011 by Pop

[WorstUsernameEver]

Unlikely to be representative of the game, but amusing (found on NeoGAf)

[Volourn]

"So, does that mean their earlier policy quote, which says EA account bans do kick you out of the game altogether, is wrong? I doubt it. Good news for the guy though.

"

 

They did the right thing. In fact, they did the only thing they could morally, publically, and probably legally. EA had no leg to stand on there.

 

 

Pop: I don't agree with everything you wrote, and am about to make counter arguments but out of all the anti DA2 posts I've read thus far yours is definitely one of the most reasonable critiques that done whine for the sake of it but just give your honest opinion. That's cool (not that you seek my approval).

 

Here, i go...

 

"(you want to get to the Deep Roads apparently but it's never explained exactly why you want to, besides the fact that the plot wouldn't work without it)"

 

To get your family out of the gutter so you ain't stuck living as a rat in your uncles's house.

 

 

"There are times where the combat is good, at least! "

 

I hate the waves too, but the combat is good overall, and more satisfying than DA1's. in its challenge., You need your abiltiies to survive, and need to not always stick with the same tatics. One dissapointment is tha rmeoval of some monster abilities like overhwelm which was the most awesome things ever. Makes spiders elss frightening, but enemies have other cool stuff like certain leaders giving boost to their lessers through leadership or the fact that foes will use healing potions.

 

 

"And I have to give special attention to how aggravating the influence system is."

 

The best use of an influence system ever, imo. And, despite a few inconsistencies makes very sense and is evry reactive and actually matter. I like the fact that 'rivalry' doesn't neccessary mean, I'm gonna kill you. In some ways, rivalry is better than neutrality 'cause it means they care and your relationship is deeper.

 

 

 

"By the by, Merrill is far and away the worst character Bioware has ever created."

 

No way, not even close. I can name many that are worse - Minsc and that stupid kobold as an example. Merill is weird. Based on pre release hype, I thought she was just thrown in for the kiddies who like to romance the youngest looking thing around, but she's deeper than that. And, I've read things get more inetresting later on. I'll take her over Tali any day (I romance neither).

 

The dialogue system is aweosme when many ways to approach dialogues and not all of them are obvious. Also, BIO makes a lot more effort to defferiante evilness with greed.There are 17 different approaches that potentially pop up during dialogue. Actually, 18 if you count the fact that you can ask compoanions to intervene when it matters.

 

The C&C for this game is off the charts as well compared to previous BIO games from what I've seen and from what i've ehard. I can't wait to replay it to see how awesome it is. i do know what quests you do, and how you do them can cut off or open up further quests, characetrs, and the like.

 

And, don't be fooled, some people claim that all joinables are forced on you. That blatantly isn't true. Heck, you can completely miss some characters. In fact, one of the big whines is how one eprson on the BIO baords called BIO evil b/c you completely miss out on Isabella despite her being a highly advterised character.

 

Also, people complain aboutt he lack of exchanges between companions but that is nott rue. It happenes A LOT between npcs. Heck, one of the neatest things is that when you are in control of another character, you can actually 'talk' with Hawke. HA!

[Volourn]

Sorry for the double post (I usually hate that but I think this needs to be said...)

 

Some people claim that DA2 is not a true sequel to DA1, and this post is dedicated to dispelling that myth. Remember folks, this is NOT about quality but about how 'true' it is to the DA franchise. Whetehr the game is good or bad is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

1. Characetr system is basically intact. The combat works exactly like it does in DA1 but sped up. The biggest change is the lack of non combat skills but almost all the skills do exist in some way or another. You have the same stats which work the exact same way, talent lines, specialization, and all that.

 

2. Equipment works the same. You have your weapons, armour, rings, et all. The biggest difference npcs ahve favored armour and one chaarcetr has a favorite weapon which makes sense storywise 'cause there is no way he would willing let go of it.

 

3. You have the same collection of runes, potions, weaponary, et all, including old favorites.

 

4. Familiars characters return including ex party members as well as the father-son team.

 

5. Events in DA1 have a role to play in DA1 including determing if a joinable aprty member can come back, some quests, and a few encounters.

 

6. It takes palce in Thedas.

 

7. World lore plays a huge role in the game. No way would the game's main story work if it wasn't for the whole templay-mage rivalry. Not to mention the rival factions including Sten's peeps, certain assassin groups, lyrium (which still can be addicting to templars and others), the fade, and so many things based on Thedas Lore. Let's not forget demon possession as well.

 

8. Darkspawn, the taint, and wardens may not be the focus of DA2 but they still play important roles. Isn't this what people wnated btw? People were whining how they were sick of these things and were praying that DA2 would shift its focus elsewhere. that's actaly what DA2 did with its focus on Hawk's clim to champion and Kirkwalls' mage-templar rivalry which effects A LOT of quests and is the focus but the big focus of DA1 is still there.

 

I can go on, but that's it for now.. But, as can be seen, no way does DA2 work if it isn't the sequel to DA1... Even the PC warden of DA1 sneaks in to play some infleunce in DA1....

[sorophx]

I don't think anybody here would debate that DA2 isn't a "true sequel", it's not a very good sequel though. judging by various reports and reviews the game feels rushed and unpolished. it's as if ME2 and 1 changed places, with ME2 being the original and 1 - sequel to that.

 

in its own right DA2 might not be as awful a game as some people claim it is, but seems like the franchise has been downgraded by it

[Volourn]

"I don't think anybody here would debate that DA2 isn't a "true sequel", "

 

Umm.. some people in this very thread argued that very thing.

 

Doesn't feel unploished as I've seen a few bugs and it was quickly fixed with a reload. And, oh, the various posts are wrong.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Volourn

[WorstUsernameEver]

Metacritic scores keep going down by the way. Really surprised about that, right now it's even scored less than New Vegas (last season's big slam dunk). In other words, this game has been rated in the same league of Obsidian's sequels (Dragon Age II PC: 84, NWN2 PC: 82, KOTORII PC: 86, F:NV PC: 85). I haven't heard reports so, as for as polish goes, is this game better than Obsidian's usual fare (abysmal) ?

[Volourn]

Rememebr that metacritic is a few hundred people.. not completely representative of the thousands if not millions who actually play the game - espicially its heavily represenattive of negative ninnies and **** fanboys. 0s,1s, and 10s should likely be ignored= in most cases.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Volourn

[Nightshape]

"I don't think anybody here would debate that DA2 isn't a "true sequel", "

 

Umm.. some people in this very thread argued that very thing.

 

Doesn't feel unploished as I've seen exactly one bug and it was quickly fixed with a reload. And, oh, the various posts are wrong.

 

My actual argument is more to do with the fact that the gameplay has been rethunk.

 

In terms of the gameplay, I would say they've pretty much decided to abandon the DA:O style of play, in favour of a new style. Its as much of a progression of thought as comparing versions of dungeon's and dragons, say 3rd edition and 4th edition, or even 2nd and 3rd editions, they're still called dungeons and dragons in terms of rule sets, but there are definite diversions in mechanical thought. I would say that the way most games improve upon gameplay elements is more akin to 3ed to 3.5ed changes, they're not as dramatic as what we have witnessed with DA 2, it's quite a drastic rethink of how the fundemental game plays. Everything seems to have been rethought, the inventory, the way the player interacts in combat, skill tree, and so on.

 

For example they've kept the same spell/skill names, but altered the progression mechanics, you could say refined as its deeper than DA:O. This is a fairly minor progression, opposed to how scenarios actually play out when using the spells, using cone of cold for example in DA : O, is different than in DA 2, spread and depth have changed.

 

Both the progression, and effect have been altered to fit a new style of play.

 

This doesn't mean that the game isn't set in the same world, it most definately is a Dragon Age game world, the mythology, locations etc... That stuff is all solid, and coherent.

 

I think I would be correct in saying that DA 2 bares less of a resemblance to Baldur's Gate than DA:O did.

 

Another example of this kind of difference would be the dramatic difference between Fallout 2 and Fallout 3. Lots of people called the game many things, Oblivion with guns, it's not a true fallout sequel(in many respects it isn't). Now we can debate to the hells freeze over about this, or simply except the fact that Fallout 2 and Fallout 3 play like very different games. Its a sequel in terms of brand, and not a gameplay sequal.

 

My argument is that DA 2, is a brand sequel, and not a gameplay sequel. This isn't a good or bad thing, but it does mean the people who enjoied DA:O because of the gameplay are going to be potentially very upset. They wanted a gameplay sequel, but they were delivered is a brand sequel.

 

Now people have mentioned that ME 2 and ME had some pretty drastic changes, it somewhat did and didn't. The fundemental core, combat mechanic changes were very basic, they added ammo, they added cover attachment as a button press, yes they changed lots of other things. It's still very much a 3rd person cover based shooter. This cannot be said for DA:O and DA 2, they didn't just tweak some mechanics, they fundementally rethought how the player interacts with the game to the point that console gamers are mashing A, or X.

 

This whole discussion begs the question of what makes a game sequel?

 

This is just how I feel about it, later I'll address your points in a more direct fashion, but right now... I actually want to go and play a game I am enjoying very much. Dragon Age 2.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Nightshape

[Nightshape]

There is a lovely bug where the game gives up letting you access the menu's. The GUI becomes unresponsive, and even the keystrokes won't help you. Thankfully you can still quick save and restart the program. *grumbles*

[Morgoth]

So, finally got around playing an hour of DA2.

 

And what can I say? I actually like it, once you got past the horrible demo section. Kirkwall looks quite impressive, and the art direction is also an improvement.

 

Well spent 15

[HoonDing]

Well spent 15

[Nightshape]

So, finally got around playing an hour of DA2.

 

And what can I say? I actually like it, once you got past the horrible demo section. Kirkwall looks quite impressive, and the art direction is also an improvement.

 

Well spent 15

[Morgoth]

Well spent 15

[sorophx]

Rememebr that metacritic is a few hundred people..

I don't know about metacritic, but I think the scores movies get from Rotten Tomatoes are usually a good way of determining the picture's quality. especially when you hit the "Top Critics" button (of course having a few trusted names like R.Ebert helps narrowing them down)

[Volourn]

"There is a lovely bug where the game gives up letting you access the menu's. The GUI becomes unresponsive, and even the keystrokes won't help you. Thankfully you can still quick save and restart the program. *grumbles*"

 

I love 360. If you can get past RROD, bugs are very minimal.

 

 

"I don't know about metacritic, but I think the scores movies get from Rotten Tomatoes are usually a good way of determining the picture's quality. especially when you hit the "Top Critics" button (of course having a few trusted names like R.Ebert helps narrowing them down)"'

 

Yeah, I meant user reviewers not professionals. I tend not to just 'professionals' for other reasons thoguh Ebert is solid even if I disagree with him.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Volourn

[WorstUsernameEver]

Rememebr that metacritic is a few hundred people.. not completely representative of the thousands if not millions who actually play the game - espicially its heavily represenattive of negative ninnies and **** fanboys. 0s,1s, and 10s should likely be ignored= in most cases.

 

Uh? I wasn't talking about the user reviews, those are more often than not obfuscated/polluted by the disheartened/angry fans posted in larger numbers than those that were indifferent/liked the game in cases so polarizing (not to mention that, as far as I understand, /v/ is actively trying to keep the user scores down).

I'm talking about the metascores which are aggregates that take into account the many reviews published. I dislike Metacritic in that publishers put way too much stock into it and that its methods aren't transparent, but it's not like you can just discount it like that, it is important for the industry, like it or not (I certainly don't).

[HoonDing]

BG > BG2 > HotU > KOTOR > ME2 > SoU > DA:O > ME > JE > NWN > DA2

 

EDIT: forgot DA:O. R00fles!

Edited March 12, 2011 by virumor

[sorophx]

how in the world did KOTOR make it into that list when KOTOR2 didn't? also, what happened to NWN2?