A government warns school not to not celebrate Christmas

[Humodour]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/special-r...2-1225963551792

 

A bit of a funny twist to the 'Christmas is bad' PC theme.

[Rosbjerg]

Perfect example of how some people are so afraid of insulting other that they actually end up insulting everyone.. If I lived (for instance) in a predominantly Muslim society I would be pretty upset if the local politicians cancelled Ramadan out of fear of how it would affect my minority.

[Walsingham]

You can't sop wankers from being wankers. You can try to ensure they don't end up in charge of anything. Like a school.

[Hurlshort]

Isn't the article saying that the government and community support Christmas celebrations?

 

edit: Just saw the not not. Tricky Krezack

Edited November 30, 2010 by Hurlshot

[Kaftan Barlast]

Just call it "jul" and celebrate it anyway, no one can be offended by presents and gl

[Volourn]

Banning Christmas in 2010 based on religious religions is bogus anyways since it's largely a holdiday meant to celebrate family not really the birth of Christ. *shrug*

 

 

"Perfect example of how some people are so afraid of insulting other that they actually end up insulting everyone.. If I lived (for instance) in a predominantly Muslim society I would be pretty upset if the local politicians cancelled Ramadan out of fear of how it would affect my minority."

 

Exactly.

[TheHarlequin]

Banning Christmas in 2010 based on religious religions is bogus anyways since it's largely a holdiday meant to celebrate family not really the birth of Christ. *shrug*

 

 

"Perfect example of how some people are so afraid of insulting other that they actually end up insulting everyone.. If I lived (for instance) in a predominantly Muslim society I would be pretty upset if the local politicians cancelled Ramadan out of fear of how it would affect my minority."

 

Exactly.

 

I agree partly.

 

The secular version is the whole family, love aspect. But that's a more modern view of the holiday. However for the past 1700 yrs or so its been crammed down our throat as the birth of the biblical jesus. (Which is historically incorrect and fiction as most scholars agree the historical man jesus, which the biblical jesus is based on, was born spring or early summer). And you have these 'family values' groups trying to strong arm merchants to not say 'happy holidays' but 'merry christmas' in their ads as apparently, in their little minds, people will forget about christmas (the underlying issue is they want to push christian values on everyone) if the word isn't plastered all over the stores. They even get their panties in a bunch when stores use xmas. But I digress.

 

That said, the roots of the holiday ironically is the Celtic/European pagan winter solstice/celebration. The xians just took it over as it was easier to convert non-xians if the holidays were at the same time. So the holiday really has ZERO to do with the xian faith anyways. But they keep pushing this false history for whatever reason.

 

I suppose my point is if the far right xians would stop trying to shove their faith in everyones faces and the opposite side of the spectrum, would stop the knee jerk reaction being overly PC and just let folks, stores, groups, etc word it the way they want then everything would go much smoother.

[Tigranes]

Arguably there's nothing really wrong with a symbolic celebration of Jesus' birth on a certain date, and nothing really that wrong with the fact that it's become such an embedded part of our culture that everyone celebrates Christmas (but in very very non-Christian ways, anyway).

 

Certainly extremists getting freaked out about happy holidays or forcing it on everyone are annoying as hell, but I find that it's overkill to bring up the really old roots (Saturnalia, etc) and so on and so forth. The real social issue with Christmas, if you want one, is not the Christian aspect at all, but the amazingly integrated commodity system. Christians celebrate it in their own ways, no worries, as long as they don't go gaga about it.

[Hurlshort]

I used to have a friend who sent out Happy Capitalism Day card during Christmas, it always made me smile. I also don't know any Christians that aren't aware of the roots of Christmas in pagan traditional holidays. It's not like Christmas trees and Santa Clause pop up in the bible very often. It is simply a symbolic celebration, as Tigranes already stated, and that has clearly worked out pretty well for the Church, given how steep attendance numbers climb this time of year.

[Oblarg]

If I had my way schools would all celebrate Saturnalia.

[Humanoid]

My only regret is that Christianity doesn't have more holy days off.

[TheHarlequin]

Arguably there's nothing really wrong with a symbolic celebration of Jesus' birth on a certain date, and nothing really that wrong with the fact that it's become such an embedded part of our culture that everyone celebrates Christmas (but in very very non-Christian ways, anyway).

 

Certainly extremists getting freaked out about happy holidays or forcing it on everyone are annoying as hell, but I find that it's overkill to bring up the really old roots (Saturnalia, etc) and so on and so forth. The real social issue with Christmas, if you want one, is not the Christian aspect at all, but the amazingly integrated commodity system. Christians celebrate it in their own ways, no worries, as long as they don't go gaga about it.

 

No there isn't. However most xian's don't see it as symbolic they see it as factual. If you question that pop down to your local church this sunday and ask some of folks there including the priest. Last mass I attended a bit over a decade ago they still preach it as fact not symbolic. I highly doubt much has changed on that level in the short time I have been away.

 

And there isn't anything wrong with Christmas or the Pagan holiday it's based off of Yule/Winter Solstice, as a whole either. As long as those who wish can celebrate it as they like and are not criticized for it. This is after all a secular country not a xian one.

 

However I disagree about your history comment. NO history IMO is pointless or not worth discussing or acknowledging. We can all learn from something for every aspect of history. Certainly many of those people on pulpits could learn a thing or two from a modern secular science or history book and stop treating the bible as if it has every answer on every topic needed. In this example I am not sure how you can discuss xmas without the real roots of it. All that does IMO is breed ignorance and helps propel the fallacy xmas is based on this fictional biblical jesus character. To paraphrase a saying I am very much a believer of.. those that forget history are doomed to repeat its mistakes

[Walsingham]

If I had my way schools would all celebrate Saturnalia.

 

:lol:

Being raised in a public school my impression of state schools is that they do!

[Volourn]

"However for the past 1700 yrs or so its been crammed down our throat as the birth of the biblical jesus."

 

I dunno about you, but I haven't been around for 1700 years so it hasn't been'forced' down my throat nearly that long.

[Malcador]

My only regret is that Christianity doesn't have more holy days off.

 

Or maybe stretch them out. We could have Easter Week.

[TheHarlequin]

"However for the past 1700 yrs or so its been crammed down our throat as the birth of the biblical jesus."

 

I dunno about you, but I haven't been around for 1700 years so it hasn't been'forced' down my throat nearly that long.

 

Clearly failed at history.

[Tigranes]

No there isn't. However most xian's don't see it as symbolic they see it as factual. If you question that pop down to your local church this sunday and ask some of folks there including the priest. Last mass I attended a bit over a decade ago they still preach it as fact not symbolic. I highly doubt much has changed on that level in the short time I have been away.

 

I know. What's the problem? They are teaching their faith in their churches. As long as they don't invade shopping malls and scream JESUS IS REAAAAAL at the kids, again, there's no need to go overboard.

 

NO history IMO is pointless or not worth discussing or acknowledging.

 

Obviously this has nothing to do with what I was saying, though? This discussion is clearly (and sensibly) confined to the question of, what kind of social conventions & understanding needs to be established regarding Christmas, for the good of all. So obviously we don't want extreme Christians taking over the whole show and shoving it down your throat, etc. My point is that there's no reason to go overboard and attack the Christian 'origins' of the holiday - there's nothing really wrong with the Western world celebrating a highly secularised holiday with its own visual signifiers and conventions and rituals, most of which by now originated from a variety of sources and/or has lost much of its Christian inflection.

 

To be honest without putting things into your mouth, I feel that your argument is currently mixing your personal disapproval of Christian beliefs/ideologies and some very general principles/beliefs with an analysis of a specific situation, and it's just muddying the waters. I don't think, say, excising Christmas of its historical connections to Christianity / Saturnalia / etc, or making Christmas wholly non-Christian, really achieves anything meaningful.

[Volourn]

"Clearly failed at history."

 

Clearly failed your intelligence roll.

 

You claimed it has been 'forced' on *us* for 1700 years. That's impossible since I have not been alive for 1700 years so obviously it hasn';t been forced on me nearly that long.

[TheHarlequin]

No there isn't. However most xian's don't see it as symbolic they see it as factual. If you question that pop down to your local church this sunday and ask some of folks there including the priest. Last mass I attended a bit over a decade ago they still preach it as fact not symbolic. I highly doubt much has changed on that level in the short time I have been away.

 

I know. What's the problem? They are teaching their faith in their churches. As long as they don't invade shopping malls and scream JESUS IS REAAAAAL at the kids, again, there's no need to go overboard.

 

NO history IMO is pointless or not worth discussing or acknowledging.

 

Obviously this has nothing to do with what I was saying, though? This discussion is clearly (and sensibly) confined to the question of, what kind of social conventions & understanding needs to be established regarding Christmas, for the good of all. So obviously we don't want extreme Christians taking over the whole show and shoving it down your throat, etc. My point is that there's no reason to go overboard and attack the Christian 'origins' of the holiday - there's nothing really wrong with the Western world celebrating a highly secularised holiday with its own visual signifiers and conventions and rituals, most of which by now originated from a variety of sources and/or has lost much of its Christian inflection.

 

To be honest without putting things into your mouth, I feel that your argument is currently mixing your personal disapproval of Christian beliefs/ideologies and some very general principles/beliefs with an analysis of a specific situation, and it's just muddying the waters. I don't think, say, excising Christmas of its historical connections to Christianity / Saturnalia / etc, or making Christmas wholly non-Christian, really achieves anything meaningful.

 

Simply making the point isn't NOT taught as symbolic, it's taught as a fact. Thus the comment it is seen as symbolic is in error.

 

However teaching clearly misinformed information is wrong IMO. So one can teach whats known to be factually incorrect as long as the 'faith' label is slapped onto it? So if the church has another council of nicea moment tomorrow and decides to start teaching as part of their faith the earth is the center of the universe again as fact you would be ok with that?

 

I see the slippery slope something as 'innocent' as you prob see this topic as can bring. If you can preach ignorance under the faith label then where does the line get drawn?

 

Its these kind of 'teachings' that in the end breed the extremists as they are taught misinformation and then use that information as a justification for their actions. You agree having one faith try to ram it down others throats is not good. Then where did the people on the street here in Salem, MA during Halloween season come from that were screaming on the corners there we are all going to burn in hell because we are partaking in some fun and dressing up. And that gay folks are evil and damned. And being a Pagan im apparently in league with the xian devil. And that the earth is only 6000 yrs old. They didn't just wake up that morning with all these ideas. they were taught all this by their church. So yes, teaching misinformation is VERY bad and leads to people like this. If your religion can't stand on its own 2 feet with whats know factually both with science and history then perhaps the religion isn't worth a damn IMO.

 

That said, Perhaps I misunderstood your comments about history. If so my bad. All I am saying is good, bad or indifferent history should not be pushed aside because some folks find in inconvenient. Thats my only point. And dismissing the pagan roots of a LOT of xian beleifs and holidays is not only breeding ignorance but silly. As if it wasn't for the various pagan religions xian's would have 1/2 of what they do know for a religion. I am a man of facts and hard data which tends to go against the grain of many religions I suppose is the main issue.

 

Finally, unlike what you and others think I don't have a issue with xians or most other religions. What I do have a issue with is when a religion teaches psedu-science and lies in the face of both its members and of known facts to fits its agenda. As all that does is breed ignorance and untruths as 'fact' and that urks me to no end. Because, as I said above all that does is create those idiots on the corner telling everyone we are going to burn in hell for this or that and shove their ignorance down our throats.

[Thorton_AP]

Just a question, but why an insistence on using 'x' in place of Christ? I know it's not incorrect, but reading 'xian' I usually find myself connecting with Chinese cities

Edited December 2, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[TheHarlequin]

Less typing, plus xian was a official abbr used by the church for over a century in the past.

[Thorton_AP]

Yes I know it was an official abbreviation. I do enjoy it when people get mad at "Xmas" haha

[Tigranes]

Again, Harlequin, clearly you're now discussing your personal disapproval of Christian teachings and/or religious teachings as a whole. That's really a different topic I don't want to get into at length here. I will only suggest that in the manner you present them, your views on religion are extremely narrow-minded and perhaps based more on public perceptions of what religion is about than how religion actually works for many people in real life.

 

All I am saying is good, bad or indifferent history should not be pushed aside because some folks find in inconvenient.

 

Of course.

[Hurlshort]

I'll repeat that where I was raised and at the churches I attended in my youth, it was always made very clear that Christmas was a symbolic celebration of the birth of Christ. It was also made clear (without discouraging them) that the traditions like Santa Clause, Trees, and mistletoe really had nothing to do with the nativity scene. Maybe I just attended more progressive Church's as a child, the Stone Church I remember the most as a child does fly a rainbow flag in front.

 

I know there are pockets of extremists out there, but I just don't see it as being a widespread ignorance among Christians. I see Santa and Christmas trees a lot more than I do the Nativity scene and three wise men.

[TheHarlequin]

Again, Harlequin, clearly you're now discussing your personal disapproval of Christian teachings and/or religious teachings as a whole. That's really a different topic I don't want to get into at length here. I will only suggest that in the manner you present them, your views on religion are extremely narrow-minded and perhaps based more on public perceptions of what religion is about than how religion actually works for many people in real life.

 

All I am saying is good, bad or indifferent history should not be pushed aside because some folks find in inconvenient.

 

Of course.

 

So wanting a religion (any religion, once again I have been very clear my comments are not specific to just the xian church that just happens to be the topic at the moment) teach facts as not to breed ignorance is a personal fault of mine? Good to know.

 

Second I have been exposed to many religions in my life. Was a practicing catholic for 20 yrs in fact. How you can make these assumptions about me without even knowing me, my education or background is perplexing. Certainly at the very least makes you presumptuous.. and falsely so on your assumptions. I have seen and been at many situations and clearly understand how 'religion works'. Your arrogance about knowing me is a bit annoying.. and humorous.

 

Finally I am one of the most liberal, open minded person you will meet. I however stand by my convictions once a view has been formed. If that makes me close minded because I draw from my personal experiences, learned knowledge and I point out facts you, or others, don't want to discuss/acknowledge that's not my issue.

 

Seems to me you simply are making excuses to slink out of the convo. I find trying having any kind of fruitful discussion with you when the topic becomes even the slight bit controversial or biased you make a excuse to get out. So be it.