Catholic marchers turn on Glastonbury pagans

[Hurlshort]

That was pretty irritating.

 

And how many atrocities, ignorance, hate, wars and deaths would have been avoided if spirituality was the main belief and not organized religion? Our world history would be a LOT more peaceful.

 

First off you are doing 'What if...' scenarios which we both can fill this thread up with boths sides of the discussion and end up right where we started. Bottom line, we don't know what would have happened to the world if xian never took hold.

 

These are both your quotes, the top is what started this argument. Do you see the problem here?

 

Third, my posts are not extreme at all. When I talk about the facts of a religion that what they are, facts. Just because they are ugly truths some of that faith rather pretend didn't exist does not change the reality of the situation.

 

Ok, sure, except this is the way you state your facts:

 

On one side we have the church forcing people to convert using murder/torture and destroying entire cultures and other belief systems, fighting against science and actively trying to keep the population ignorant, waging wars in the name of their god, stealing from other religions then turning around and condemning those religions they stole from, diddling alter boys and covering it up.

 

On the other hand they feed the homeless and offer some other basic social services.

 

That is hardly looking at facts. These are loaded statements designed to cast as negative a light as possible on organized religion. That is fine, but don't try to deny you have an agenda here, you are looking to trash organized religion. Own it, because comments like this make you look bad:

 

And again I am a firm believer in if you are going to talk about such topics then recognize and acknowledge both the good and bad.

 

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not Christian or Muslim or a Buddhist. My personal beliefs are along the lines of Deism. I do spend a lot of time studying religion though. It is my job to do so, but it is also something I find fascinating. I take part in a variety of different religious events, from Ramadan to Christmas to Rosh Hashanah to the Chinese New Year. I've even attended a Wiccan handfasting ceremony. And you know what, they all share the same basic concept of community. It is impossible to measure pros and cons of organized religion like some sort of metric system. It is too big. It is like arguing the true nature of humans.

[pmp10]

call me crazy but I don't think that's a very equal distribution of pros and cons

Perhaps you could provide a complete lists of pros before proclaiming that judgment?

Right now you seem to blame organized religion for every evil it was connected with during it's entire history yet refuse to give it credit for a single thing outside of day-to-day charity.

[Nepenthe]

I am a ordained Wiccan minister.

 

I was particularly fond of this one.

[TheHarlequin]

>That was pretty irritating.

 

Children must play while the adults talk. (Assuming you were talking about the posts above yours)

 

> These are both your quotes, the top is what started this argument. Do you see the problem here?

 

I see one fact and open educated opinion but a opinion none the less. So no not really as you are comparing apples and oranges.

 

> Ok, sure, except this is the way you state your facts:

 

> That is hardly looking at facts. These are loaded statements designed to cast as negative a light as possible on organized religion. That is fine, but don't try to deny you have an agenda here, you are looking to trash organized religion. Own it, because comments like this make you look bad:

 

You act as if I have not stood by my convictions or back peddled, I have not AFAIK. You are a very confusing person to talk too on this topic. I don't really care if you think I 'look bad' its my opinion based on the churches history which I am entitled too as they made their own bed I am simply pointing it out. And please don't try to tell me some soup kitchens make up for all the ills and atrocities it has caused in the name of their god or the real reasons; power, money and control. I have not been fair in my list?.. then fix it. list all the good they have done beyond what I stated rather then whine but have nothing substantial to add.

 

If I was so unfair I am sure I would have been bombarded with posts from others reading this with their 2 coppers. Yet I see some disgruntled voices but no one coming forward and saying hey you didn't mention this or that. You can nip pick but you can't add anything major to what I said.

 

 

> I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not Christian or Muslim or a Buddhist. My personal beliefs are along the lines of Deism. I do spend a lot of time studying religion though. It is my job to do so, but it is also something I find fascinating. I take part in a variety of different religious events, from Ramadan to Christmas to Rosh Hashanah to the Chinese New Year. I've even attended a Wiccan handfasting ceremony. And you know what, they all share the same basic concept of community. It is impossible to measure pros and cons of organized religion like some sort of metric system. It is too big. It is like arguing the true nature of humans.

 

Only a religious bleeding heart or/and one blind eye kind of person would say that IMO. History is pretty clear, black and white, of what the church has done. And IMO its ills VASTLY out weigh its benefit. If you do not agree fine, to each their own.

[Hurlshort]

You are a very confusing person to talk too on this topic.

 

I think we can stop here then. That was pretty funny though.

[Nepenthe]

In fact, never mind.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Nepenthe

[TheHarlequin]

You are a very confusing person to talk too on this topic.

 

I think we can stop here then. That was pretty funny though.

 

Shouldn't tell someone they are back peddling when they are not, that's what I was attempting to imply.

 

I also take your reply as a cop-out to someone who has no intellectual retort so goes back to your usual MO.. snide comments showing your lack of depth. *shrugs*

Edited November 25, 2010 by TheHarlequin

[Pidesco]

rofl

[Hurlshort]

You got me! You are just too intellectual for me, I have been overpowered by it.

 

I definitely don't think it is a waste of time to discuss this stuff with you. You are so well-educated on this stuff that I really feel it is like a gift when you impart your wisdom upon us. Some might feel that it is dripping with condescension and arrogance, but I see the purity of your message and I bask in it.

[Darth InSidious]

nvm.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Darth InSidious

[TheHarlequin]

You got me! You are just too intellectual for me, I have been overpowered by it.

 

I definitely don't think it is a waste of time to discuss this stuff with you. You are so well-educated on this stuff that I really feel it is like a gift when you impart your wisdom upon us. Some might feel that it is dripping with condescension and arrogance, but I see the purity of your message and I bask in it.

 

Like I said you have nothing but arrogance, self importance and snide comments to give to the discussion. You rather attack the person then the topic at hand simply because you don't like what they have to say and clearly have nothing to retort so degrade in petty personal attacks. If you did had anything meaningful to retort to my last major post you would have by now. You are pathetic. Moving on.

Edited November 26, 2010 by TheHarlequin

[Walsingham]

Ordained by whom?

[Hurlshort]

So is bible bleeding heart not a personal attack? Maybe I misunderstood, I thought that was what we were going for here. If it was meant differently, you have my apologies.

[Thorton_AP]

Even the Crusades were a response to the crumbling of the Byzantine Empire.

 

And the inquisition? That was misunderstood as well in your mind I suppose too. Bible bleeding hearts like you are a dime a dozen from my travels. Always making up rationals for atrocities committed by (their) faith/organized religion.

But what's your excuse?

 

I am a ordained Wiccan minister. Last I knew no wars, genocides or mass atrocities were ever committed in the name of Wicca. But if I missed one please do point it out.

 

 

This is probably more of a symptom of how marginalized Wicca is, compared to other religions.

 

Self-righteous people such as you are also a dime a dozen, that **** all over organized religion because it's in vogue. I have seen people be pompous **** in the name of Wicca however. Fortunately you're not influential enough to actually spawn anything resembling a mass atrocity.

 

And I am agnostic btw.

[Thorton_AP]

First off you are doing 'What if...' scenarios which we both can fill this thread up with boths sides of the discussion and end up right where we started.

 

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

 

You started the what ifs when you said that the world would be better if organized religion wasn't involved.

 

 

EDIT: Hurlshot pointed this out already.

 

How much longer before you begin your persecution complex? XD XD XD

Edited November 26, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[pmp10]

I have not been fair in my list?.. then fix it. list all the good they have done beyond what I stated rather then whine but have nothing substantial to add.

First you'd have to decide what are you discussing here.

I simply fail to understand what "xian" is, and whether there is a specific church you attempt to condemn or simply declare any form of organized religion evil.

[Humodour]

Religions suck, including Wicca. Silly distractions from important problems in our world. And charity is a product of humanity not religion.

[Nepenthe]

Like I said you have nothing but arrogance, self importance and snide comments to give to the discussion.

Am I the only one overwhelmed by the irony here?

[alanschu]

I have not been fair in my list?.. then fix it. list all the good they have done beyond what I stated rather then whine but have nothing substantial to add.

First you'd have to decide what are you discussing here.

I simply fail to understand what "xian" is, and whether there is a specific church you attempt to condemn or simply declare any form of organized religion evil.

 

Substitution "X" for Christ is not all that uncommon actually. It's actually where Xmas came from too.

 

 

Like I said you have nothing but arrogance, self importance and snide comments to give to the discussion.

Am I the only one overwhelmed by the irony here?

 

No. Though I'll admit that I'm at the point where I don't know if Harelquin is just trolling, or too daft to realize that his entire modus operandi is to post with arrogance, self importance, and snide comments. This attitude goes back to while he posted as Rhomal.

[Humodour]

Ahhhhh, Rhomal! Man, that was a heaps better name to use.

[Malcador]

No. Though I'll admit that I'm at the point where I don't know if Harelquin is just trolling, or too daft to realize that his entire modus operandi is to post with arrogance, self importance, and snide comments.

 

 

Isn't that pretty much all of this forum ?

[Hurlshort]

No. Though I'll admit that I'm at the point where I don't know if Harelquin is just trolling, or too daft to realize that his entire modus operandi is to post with arrogance, self importance, and snide comments.

 

 

Isn't that pretty much all of this forum ?

 

Not at all, there are quite a few folks here that are humble, care about others, and can carry on genuine conversations. Sure, we all have our quirks and hot button issues, but it's a pretty solid community.

[Malcador]

Not at all, there are quite a few folks here that are humble, care about others, and can carry on genuine conversations. Sure, we all have our quirks and hot button issues, but it's a pretty solid community.

 

Pfft, it's the internet!

[Walsingham]

Not at all, there are quite a few folks here that are humble, care about others, and can carry on genuine conversations. Sure, we all have our quirks and hot button issues, but it's a pretty solid community.

 

Pfft, it's the internet!

 

Which is surely the number one reason the internet is so crappy. Because people don't think it should be any better.

[Raithe]

There is a time for simple courtesy and polite restraint even in the midst of a heated argument.

 

Of course, there's also a reason why the traditional english gentlman was a master of double-meanings, play on words and the ability to slice someones ego with a few simple words and never needing to raise their voice...

 

Hm, and on the regards of Wicca never being involved in atrocities or such.. well, technically Wicca is a neopagan religion that pretty much was created in the last century out of a collection of various beliefs and supposed history. From what I've picked up over the years, it developed out of certain aspects of the victorian splurge into spiritualism at the turn of the century, and then grew into its own specific set during the 50's and 60's. It hasn't exactly been around the length of time or the wide-enough following to get heavily involved in inquisitions, hardening of faith into dogma and the various reasons why a lot of organised religion can get in the way of personal faith.