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No toolset or modding tools = friggin useless... I am sick of action rpg's getting the shaft in this area in nearly every game in this genre despite the huge modding communities of Diablo and Dungeon Siege. Blizzard is shunning the modding community in D3, and it looks like Obsidian will be doing the same in DS3.. Enough already, please give us a decent toolset or some modding tools.

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When did Diablo get a huge modding community?

When they made item/skill hack editors, of course. :sorcerer:

 

But seriously, there are quite a few popular single-player D2 mods that I'm aware of, that not only change items but skins and rules/skills etc (examples), and of course the ones that didn't alter the main game but did insert things like that super-diablo event (I can't remember what he was called now) into the SP game. I never tried any of the altering mods but I did use the one that put MP-only features into SP. :lol:

“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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When did Diablo get a huge modding community?

 

I'd rather have a nice and polished game.

 

In other words, another flash in the pan, such as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, etc. etc. etc.

 

Lot's of games without toolsets lack polish, btw.

 

Besides, The Devs will make a toolset to make the game so it's not like they have to make one just for us.

Edited by nicethugbert
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When did Diablo get a huge modding community?

 

I'd rather have a nice and polished game.

 

In other words, another flash in the pan, such as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, etc. etc. etc.

A flash in the pan is perfectly fine with me, there are so many games per month these days(plus the ever-present backlog) that a nice flash in the pan is better than a lackluster fizz and the potential for smaller bangs later on.

 

Lot's of games without toolsets lack polish, btw.

What kind of an argument is that? Lots of games with toolsets lack polish as well.

 

Besides, The Devs will make a toolset to make the game so it's not like they have to make one just for us.

The "toolsets" that the devs use are more often than not command line tools with pages upon pages of technical manuals. The kind of toolsets that get released with games require a lot of extra work to at least appear user friendly.

Edited by Purkake
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User friendly toolsets that allow people to mod do tend to extend longevity (in terms of playability) to the game, for some people. Whether that constitutes 'flash in the pan' is debatable, imo, since I'd guess most consumers aren't into the actual mod-making themselves, anyway.

 

I'm not sure it increases actual sales much, either, for the same reason, hence not often worthwhile (from a business perspective) for them to put in the time to include toolsets. But that's just a guess, I don't really know for sure.

Edited by LadyCrimson
“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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There is the whole problem of 95% of mods being total crap and having to dumpster dive to find the few decent ones.

 

It's nice for multiplayer games, especially if you can do it server-side, but your average single player game today just isn't meant to be mod-friendly. Especially with the multi-platform deal.

Edited by Purkake
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When did Diablo get a huge modding community?

 

I'd rather have a nice and polished game.

 

In other words, another flash in the pan, such as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, etc. etc. etc.

A flash in the pan is perfectly fine with me, there are so many games per month these days(plus the ever-present backlog) that a nice flash in the pan is better than a lackluster fizz and the potential for smaller bangs later on.

 

I already have more than enough "flash in the pan" type games, even though I have bought only 14 game in 20 years, and I will not buy anymore any time soon. Do you think that people who find it difficult to buy a $150 video card, which a lot of gamers, will buy three flash in the pan games at $60 each? I don't.

 

You do realize that a game that you throw away so soon is actually a low quality game, right?

 

Lot's of games without toolsets lack polish, btw.

What kind of an argument is that? Lots of games with toolsets lack polish as well.

 

Exactly, polish has nothing to do with the game having a toolset for the users to use.

 

Besides, The Devs will make a toolset to make the game so it's not like they have to make one just for us.

The "toolsets" that the devs use are more often than not command line tools with pages upon pages of technical manuals. The kind of toolsets that get released with games require a lot of extra work to at least appear user friendly.

 

We could use the documentation for a change. Additionally, the better the toolset, the better The Dev's productivity hence the better the game.

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User friendly toolsets that allow people to mod do tend to extend longevity (in terms of playability) to the game, for some people. Whether that constitutes 'flash in the pan' is debatable, imo, since I'd guess most consumers aren't into the actual mod-making themselves, anyway.

 

I'm not sure it increases actual sales much, either, for the same reason, hence not often worthwhile (from a business perspective) for them to put in the time to include toolsets. But that's just a guess, I don't really know for sure.

 

It depends. Look at all the road blocks placed on NWN2 modding by requiring Granny/Discontinued Copy of 3DS Max. That game had great potential but it was hobbled from the start so it didn't live up to it's potential. And, the lawsuit does not help.

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Re: Flash in the pan

 

Steam/Gamer's Gate/Good Old Games/retail sales, bargain bin, etc?

 

Generally I only play a game once, this has nothing to do with the quality of the game.

 

Re: Toolsets

 

While the polish level of a game and the presence of a toolset are not connected, it is obvious that releasing a toolset requires extra time/manpower/money that is better spent on marketing, for example. Especially for multiplatform games where only the PC version would have the toolset anyway.

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There is the whole problem of 95% of mods being total crap and having to dumpster dive to find the few decent ones.

:ermm: So true. Not only that, but the ambitious mods that sounded promising but the ppl never finished them, or I remember for DS1, someone would make yet another bigger backpack "mod."

 

It's nice for multiplayer games, especially if you can do it server-side, but your average single player game today just isn't meant to be mod-friendly. Especially with the multi-platform deal.

Yea, I'd think the multi-platform would be a big issue.

It is too bad tho, since (imo) modding tools for single-player are sometimes the most fun things ever, since you don't have to worry about whether it affects other players & can just have fun with it. Multiplayer ones...eh...don't really care personally, but I imagine it would be cool for LAN type friend gaming. :)

“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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Actually NWN2 is a good example of why creating mod-friendly games is pretty difficult.

They had a game that WAS mod-friendly as a base, had to upgrade it to the new tech, concentrate on the SP and all of that... and the multiplayer and modding part of the game ended up being crippled.

That's what it happens when you don't have enough dev time to pursue all those areas, you have to make a choice.

Let's add that probably Onyx wasn't designed to be mod-friendly in the first place, and I can understand why they aren't releasing a toolset (for now at least).

Doesn't really mean that they want to screw the modding community, laughing like madmen in their black dark offices.

 

Would it be nice to have a toolset? Yeah.

But it's not like they have a contract that says that the game should have it.

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Re: Flash in the pan

 

Steam/Gamer's Gate/Good Old Games/retail sales, bargain bin, etc?

 

Generally I only play a game once, this has nothing to do with the quality of the game.

 

Re: Toolsets

 

While the polish level of a game and the presence of a toolset are not connected, it is obvious that releasing a toolset requires extra time/manpower/money that is better spent on marketing, for example. Especially for multiplatform games where only the PC version would have the toolset anyway.

 

Re: Flash In The Pan

 

A game that is so good that it is worth playing over again is obviously better than a game that is worth playing only once just like a game that is worth playing instead of another game is better than the other game.

 

 

Re: Toolsets

 

A good game is worth marketing. A better game is worth marketing more than a lesser game. A better feature set makes a game better therefore more marketable. A good toolset makes the feature set better which makes the game better therefore more marketable.

Edited by nicethugbert
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Actually NWN2 is a good example of why creating mod-friendly games is pretty difficult.

They had a game that WAS mod-friendly as a base, had to upgrade it to the new tech, concentrate on the SP and all of that... and the multiplayer and modding part of the game ended up being crippled.

That's what it happens when you don't have enough dev time to pursue all those areas, you have to make a choice.

Let's add that probably Onyx wasn't designed to be mod-friendly in the first place, and I can understand why they aren't releasing a toolset (for now at least).

Doesn't really mean that they want to screw the modding community, laughing like madmen in their black dark offices.

 

Would it be nice to have a toolset? Yeah.

But it's not like they have a contract that says that the game should have it.

 

NWN2 had inferior animation, stealth, and AI. I guess that NWN2 is a good example of why creating games with superior animations, stealth, and AI is pretty difficult.

 

You can take anyone's failings as an excuse for them to never do anything. For instance, I'm seeing video reviews of Alpha Protocol that demonstrate it's inferior animations, stealth, and AI. I guess I should expect the same from Dungeon Siege II, or any OEI game for that matter.

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NWN2 had inferior animation, stealth, and AI. I guess that NWN2 is a good example of why creating games with superior animations, stealth, and AI is pretty difficult.

 

You can take anyone's failings as an excuse for them to never do anything. For instance, I'm seeing video reviews of Alpha Protocol that demonstrate it's inferior animations, stealth, and AI. I guess I should expect the same from Dungeon Siege II, or any OEI game for that matter.

 

You don't really get my point, do you?

Developers don't have infinite teams that can delay a game indefinitely, that's something reserved for a giant like Blizzard, not a little , and honestly on the verge of dying, developer like Obsidian.

They have to choose priorities.

They've decided that going with the single player + multiplayer route was more than enough and focused on that.

You can disagree on their priorities, but, as I've already pointed out, the intention behind it certainly isn't screwing the modding community.

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Re: Flash In The Pan

 

A game that is so good that it is worth playing over again is obviously better than a game that is worth playing only once just like a game that is worth playing instead of another game is better than the other game.

 

 

Re: Toolsets

 

A good game is worth marketing. A better game is worth marketing more than a lesser game. A better feature set makes a game better therefore more marketable. A good toolset makes the feature set better which makes the game better therefore more marketable.

I was talking about my personal preferences. I don't play games that I like over and over again.

 

Just having a long checkbox list of features does not make a game any better by default. In fact, focusing on a limited list of features tends to make for a more coherent and better overall game experience. A hypothetical toolset that takes resources to develop and reaches 1/5 of the players at best is not a good investment for any publisher.

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NWN2 had inferior animation, stealth, and AI. I guess that NWN2 is a good example of why creating games with superior animations, stealth, and AI is pretty difficult.

 

You can take anyone's failings as an excuse for them to never do anything. For instance, I'm seeing video reviews of Alpha Protocol that demonstrate it's inferior animations, stealth, and AI. I guess I should expect the same from Dungeon Siege II, or any OEI game for that matter.

 

You don't really get my point, do you?

Developers don't have infinite teams that can delay a game indefinitely, that's something reserved for a giant like Blizzard, not a little , and honestly on the verge of dying, developer like Obsidian.

They have to choose priorities.

They've decided that going with the single player + multiplayer route was more than enough and focused on that.

You can disagree on their priorities, but, as I've already pointed out, the intention behind it certainly isn't screwing the modding community.

 

Developers have publishers to foot the bill.

 

I never claimed that they were out to screw the modding community or that they are. But, by all means enjoy your straw man.

 

Being that I have in mind a game with longevity, not a flash in the pan, they can release their toolset and improve it over time. They'll profit from our feedback. After all, if it's easy for me to use, then it increases a pro's productivity greatly and so the expansions will be easier/faster to produce and they'll make more money.

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Re: Flash In The Pan

 

A game that is so good that it is worth playing over again is obviously better than a game that is worth playing only once just like a game that is worth playing instead of another game is better than the other game.

 

 

Re: Toolsets

 

A good game is worth marketing. A better game is worth marketing more than a lesser game. A better feature set makes a game better therefore more marketable. A good toolset makes the feature set better which makes the game better therefore more marketable.

I was talking about my personal preferences. I don't play games that I like over and over again.

 

Just having a long checkbox list of features does not make a game any better by default. In fact, focusing on a limited list of features tends to make for a more coherent and better overall game experience. A hypothetical toolset that takes resources to develop and reaches 1/5 of the players at best is not a good investment for any publisher.

 

Yeah, were all talking about our personal preferences, but, that does not rule out being reasonable about our personal preferences. But, you must have not enjoyed the NWN/NWN2 series. Good modules are still being produced for it and I get to enjoy them.

 

 

I'm not proposing just having a long check box list of features, I specifically mentioned a better feature set. Have fun with your "long checkbox list of features" straw man.

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