Disappointingly easy and linear

[L!]

I think it's no secret about the difficulty for this being no problem, when I got this on Friday I put it on hard and started as a recruit, and I still got through it like it was nothing, it even pointed me in the direction of where to go/where stuff is, not that I would even need it due to the small stages, I mean come on.

 

The abilities for stealth are far too generous, the RPG elements don't work like and RPG first, more like a third person shooter first trying to mix RPG with it but spitting it back out. To be honest, the only RPG part should have been buying equipment/talking to people, no special abilities/leveling up etc that make it too easy/more of a pain to shoot in third person. STALKER for example is something to take example off of.

 

And the AI, just seemed lifeless or didn't care, and the bodies disappearing is just taking away all point of stealth, though you designed to be more accessible to running and gunning people.

 

I partly blame that fact you made a console version for this that it suffered, but I'm sure there was more too it.

 

At least the characters/voice/story was good... though the non linearity only came into play with whether you made characters hate you or not.

Edited May 31, 2010 by L

[Tigranes]

A lot of people complaining about how hard the boss fights are - it really depends. It's fairly challenging for me because I'm pretty bad with shooters, if you're someone that does a lot of multiplayer Call of Duty or Halo or such I'd imagine it's on theeasy side. If you take it as a straightforward shooter and gun everyone down with your FPS skills, it probably does get a bit tedius.

 

By 'linear' I assume you meant the level design, not the story or choice & consequences, which are wildly nonlinear? Even the order in which you take missions changes what happens in those missions. In any case, yes, none of the levels seem to be massive sprawling things you get lost in, and some are downright tiny (Lazo's yacht). Hopefully something to be expanded on in a future release..

[DarthCaine]

It sounds like you haven't played much of the game, wait till you get to Moscow

[Irrelevant]

What did you think this game was going to be? What is your reason for playing it?

[Hathur]

After playing on my first playthrough as a stealth character for about 5 or 6 hours, I stopped, deleted the character and started over as tech specialist.

 

The reason being, that even on hard difficulty, stealth is waaaay too easy and powerful... the shadow operative skill is too powerful.. at high levels, you can activate it, silent running then run into a massive room and perform melee stealth kills on 10-12 enemies before the timer runs out... it's absurdly easy.

 

Also.. while pistols are very hard to use early on since they can't hit anything beyond point blank, at mid to later levels with lots of points in it, they become absurdly powerful (like stealth)... the problem being Chain Shot... you can clear entire rooms with this skill with the press of a button every 45 secs (far less actually with various cooldown reducer perks and armor upgrades). I've tried the Assautl rifle, SMG and shotgun specials in comparison, and none of them can annihilate bosses or entire rooms in the blink of an eye like the pistol chain shot.

 

So.. in summary:

 

Stealth.. over powered. Pistols (Chain shot) overpowered.

 

My advice? Don't specialize in stealth... don't go beyond master awareness (5 points or so in stealth i think)... keeping only a few skill points in stealth lets you feel like a stealth operative, but without the magical impossibilities of Shadow Operative.. enemies can still spot you and you're forced to play a lot more like in other stealth games (watch enemies, wait until they turn their backs, then move... you don't have "invisibility mode" from the crazy high end stealth skills).

 

Also, if you want to play with pistols, don't use chain shot (max the skill.. but don't use chain shot).

 

On my playthrough as tech specialist, I went with Assault Rifle, Sabotage, and the other tech skill (forgot it's name). On hard, the game can be challenging at times, and is quite fun. I have no points in stealth, but I still sometimes can either sneak up on an enemy for a melee kill or snipe with my assault rifle using subsonic rounds.. but I eventually do get spotted and am forced to slug it out. Good times.

 

If you want a real challenge.. play hard, recruit and use shotguns or SMGS as your primary weapon (and don't go higher than 5 points in stealth)... now that's rough going.

[Gel214th]

Did you try increasing the difficulty of the game to HARD if you find it too easy, and starting at the Recruit level instead of picking a path?

[L!]

@tigranes; The boss fights can become quite hard but are easily beaten by exploiting or encountering bugs. I'm more of a seasoned shooter player (not some casual stuff like halo or call of duty) but I wasn't saying the shooting element was easy, it's just a mess and suffers because of the RPG elements that come into play with your skills, something I think shouldn't have been in the game all together where the stats are just on armor and weapons. Like I said before, it should have followed STALKER in terms of no leveling up or special perks given to your character, just your armor and weapons should be in effect.

 

And no, the linearity here is still present in level design and story, the only effects it would have is what people would think of you, that's it. I aimed to not kill any on my playthrough, and what I got was a few compliments... a true non linear game wouldn't have you believe you're making choices that effect the game when it still ends in the same place just with different characters with different attitudes. Deus Ex does this as well and while it is a good game, I still believe even that game is quite linear.

 

@darthcaine; I finished it.

 

@irrelevant; I had high hopes for this game to express some real non linearity and some actual challenge, but it didn't live up to it's name as an 'RPG' spy game, just a console spy game with RPG tact onto it as an after thought. I mean, this was coming from an RPG developer company, it's just disappointing.

 

@halthur; I can see now that stealth is just a mistake now and I should probably play through like a mercenary/commando, it's just being a spy is my favored choice.

 

@gel214th; I was playing it on hard whilst taking the role of a recruit who starts with no skills or AP. I believe that would be the hardest combination possible with this game.

[deevius]

I'm at the "Endgame" mission already.

 

expected more, meh.

[Gel214th]

[quote name='L

[Alpha]

I thought you need to unlock hard to play it. am i wrong or someone is lying?

[C2B]

I thought you need to unlock hard to play it. am i wrong or someone is lying?

 

No, you don't. As for Veteran. It isn't exactly harder. quite the opposite. lets you start with way more skillpoints than the others.

 

As for the OP. I can only give you the advise with changing things manually. Though, your a pretty high level player. Alpha Protocol on Hard/Recruit is harder for me than any of the ME's.

[Gel214th]

I thought you need to unlock hard to play it. am i wrong or someone is lying?

 

No, you don't. As for Veteran. It isn't exactly harder. quite the opposite. lets you start with way more skillpoints than the others.

 

As for the OP. I can only give you the advise with changing things manually. Though, your a pretty high level player. Alpha Protocol on Hard/Recruit is harder for me than any of the ME's.

 

Yeah..actually you should post some of your gameplay for a mission or two to YouTube so we can see how you do it! )

[Alpha]

I thought you need to unlock hard to play it. am i wrong or someone is lying?

 

No, you don't. As for Veteran. It isn't exactly harder. quite the opposite. lets you start with way more skillpoints than the others.

 

As for the OP. I can only give you the advise with changing things manually. Though, your a pretty high level player. Alpha Protocol on Hard/Recruit is harder for me than any of the ME's.

I rather it to be unlock after beat the game in Normal but ty for let me know i was wrong.

[Tigranes]

@tigranes; The boss fights can become quite hard but are easily beaten by exploiting or encountering bugs. I'm more of a seasoned shooter player (not some casual stuff like halo or call of duty) but I wasn't saying the shooting element was easy, it's just a mess and suffers because of the RPG elements that come into play with your skills, something I think shouldn't have been in the game all together where the stats are just on armor and weapons. Like I said before, it should have followed STALKER in terms of no leveling up or special perks given to your character, just your armor and weapons should be in effect.

 

Can I ask why? Seems to be a preference call based on what you want the game to be. For me it's a more fun game because it's an RPG that just happens to shoot things, what you want is basically a shooter with a little RPG elements. I think it was poor that the game didn't tell you this in the tutorial (i.e. big sign saying ITS YOUR STATS NOT YOUR AIM in the weapons range), but I think it's great - people just didn't expect it and think the game is screwed up.

 

I aimed to not kill any on my playthrough, and what I got was a few compliments... a true non linear game wouldn't have you believe you're making choices that effect the game when it still ends in the same place just with different characters with different attitudes.

 

So I assume you played it through twice or more? I'm on my second playthrough now to see how much actually changes. It's undeniable that there are a huge amount of choices you can make, many more than Deus Ex. Time to see how much of the story / missions they change.

certainly it changes which of your friends and enemies die and live, and hwo world events end up in the end, at least.

 

[BEES]

I disagree about the difficulty. I'm also a Recruit on Hard and am currently stuck on the Intercept Surkov mission in Moscow. Went there as my first destination (so it may be an issue that I'm too underlevel) but honestly the protect quest portion of that mission is stupid with how bad the companion AI is as well as how weak they are. The mission can literally end in fifteen seconds.

[Ulicus]

My advice? Don't specialize in stealth... don't go beyond master awareness (5 points or so in stealth i think)... keeping only a few skill points in stealth lets you feel like a stealth operative, but without the magical impossibilities of Shadow Operative.. enemies can still spot you and you're forced to play a lot more like in other stealth games (watch enemies, wait until they turn their backs, then move... you don't have "invisibility mode" from the crazy high end stealth skills).

While I understand your perspective, it's also one I find a little frustrating (though by no means surprising) given the game's nature. Alpha Protocol is an RPG, first and foremost. If Mike's stealth skills are maxed out, it means that Mike is an amazing stealth operative, irrespective of the player's own abilities. Therefore, Shadow Operative exists, in the way it exists, not because Mike can perform "magical impossibilities" but because it represents Mike's ability to move throughout the environment unseen. It's a gameplay mechanic -- just like how, in the Infinity Engine games, "hide in shadows/move silently" made you invisible.

 

That said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with how you suggest the game should be played. And, indeed, it would be more challenging. I just don't think the stealth skills should be contested on the grounds of their "magical" nature.

[Tigranes]

If you wanted to play without 'magical skills', though, arguably, you should be able to aim manually (headshot = kill, not dependant on your stats). For instance, chain shot is currently there because it represents Mike's shooting ability, his ability to shoot people extremely fast and accurately. Not you as a player's ability. It allows me to play a skilled pistol wielder even though I'm useless at aiming.

 

Every game has to make a decision about this. AP just decided to put role playing at the top priority.

[Ulicus]

If you wanted to play without 'magical skills', though, arguably, you should be able to aim manually (headshot = kill, not dependant on your stats). For instance, chain shot is currently there because it represents Mike's shooting ability, his ability to shoot people extremely fast and accurately. Not you as a player's ability. It allows me to play a skilled pistol wielder even though I'm useless at aiming.

Indeed. With Alpha Protocol, for the most part, what the player is seeing on the screen as they play is "what" is happening, as opposed to "how" it is happening.

 

Every game has to make a decision about this. AP just decided to put role playing at the top priority.

Exactly right. And it was a breath of fresh air, considering the current trend. I love games that depend entirely on my own skill, don't get me wrong, but if I'm playing an RPG and I spend (in this context) the 90 AP needed to max out stealth... then I'm going to be pretty annoyed if it isn't easy to stay out of sight -- especially since, with 90 AP, I could have maxed out more than one of the other skills.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Ulicus

[Deng]

[quote name='L

[Deng]

[quote name='L

[L!]

I won't complain about dice rolls and such, I can enjoy that in a spy themed game, problem with it is how it was implemented via the third person shooting, it just didn't work together. I agree that I am a fan of STALKER but you can't disagree it would have been better then how it is now where aiming was all down to how well you could yourself.

 

If it was a turn based game, or in an isometric view, the I could have enjoyed the RPG of this game.

[Deng]

[quote name='L

[Hathur]

If you wanted to play without 'magical skills', though, arguably, you should be able to aim manually (headshot = kill, not dependant on your stats). For instance, chain shot is currently there because it represents Mike's shooting ability, his ability to shoot people extremely fast and accurately. Not you as a player's ability. It allows me to play a skilled pistol wielder even though I'm useless at aiming.

 

Every game has to make a decision about this. AP just decided to put role playing at the top priority.

 

Chain shot would have been fine as a tool... but only if the challenge of the game justified its existence. As it exists, Chain shot maxed can kill bosses on hard instantly... it can clear an entire room of enemies while in stealth with ease.

 

Now compare quick shot to Focused Fire (assault rifle) Bullet Storm and then the shotgun special skill (Forgot name).... none of these skills reduce the difficulty of battle to zero the way chain shot does.... there's a huge disparity in the effectiveness of this skill vs the other weapon skills.

 

In fact, pistols are the sniper rifle of this game... you can kill enemies from insane distances using quick shot... the Assault rifle takes time to line up a shot, and Focused fire is of only limited use compared to quick shot.

 

It was a game testing failure.. .they failed to see that this one skill reduced the game difficulty to almost non existent. They should either have made the game more challenging or reduced the effectiveness of quick shot compared to other weapon specials.

 

And with stealth... the existing stealth engine is fine... it's the fact that Shadow Operative as the highest level makes you invincible. Enemies can't see you, it lasts extremely long and allows your character to run up to enemies, stealth choke them all to death... you can even kill bosses like this, removing all chalenge of the game whatsoever. It's the fact that once you get this skill, you can't lose... it lasts so long and recharges so fast, you can effectively keep it active for every single fight you encounter and just casually saunter up to every enemy and kill them with zero risk.

 

Compare that to other skills in the game, other than quick shot, none of them reduce the difficulty of the game to zilch other than these 2.... the designers needed to be more careful with how they made those skills (and in my opinion, once you get past Shadow Master Basic, the stealth system breaks the game since it removes all challenge in the game... up to Shadow Master Basic, the stealth system is solid since there is always at least some risk you can be seen and die.)

[MazeMouse]

Well, the Quick Shot skill reminded me a lot of the Splinter Cell Conviction Mark&Execute... only on cooldown instead of unlockable through melee kills.

 

Which made it overpowered by default.

I effectively just did fights waiting for the cooldown to end.

Edited June 1, 2010 by MazeMouse

[Ulicus]

Chain shot would have been fine as a tool... but only if the challenge of the game justified its existence. As it exists, Chain shot maxed can kill bosses on hard instantly... it can clear an entire room of enemies while in stealth with ease.

Which bosses? I'd only maxed it by the third hub, and it took at least 2 or 3 to kill bosses... which didn't make things feel too easy, given that it has a recharge time and there were usually a lot of mooks out for my blood at the same time.

 

And with stealth... the existing stealth engine is fine... it's the fact that Shadow Operative as the highest level makes you invincible. Enemies can't see you, it lasts extremely long and allows your character to run up to enemies, stealth choke them all to death... you can even kill bosses like this, removing all chalenge of the game whatsoever. It's the fact that once you get this skill, you can't lose... it lasts so long and recharges so fast, you can effectively keep it active for every single fight you encounter and just casually saunter up to every enemy and kill them with zero risk.

Recharges fast? That's simply untrue. If you want to use it in every encounter, you have to spend a considerable amount of time hanging about and, in the longer encounters, it only comes in useful once. Neither can the bosses be killed by a stealth choke/knife takedown -- the most it allows you to do is set up a good shot.

 

S'not to say it's perfect. I think the conditions on which the ability deactivated should have been more comprehensive, and included killing mooks in the LOS of another -- so you still had to take awareness into account. The ability to run at the highest level was also, perhaps, a step too far. But you're objecting that the maxing out the most expensive skill line makes the game a hell of a lot easier... when that's exactly what it should do. Perhaps not quite to the extent that it does (as things stand, stealth should maybe be 7 points a pop), but to for the price it takes to make out stealth, you could max out both sabotage AND technician.

 

Compare that to other skills in the game, other than quick shot, none of them reduce the difficulty of the game to zilch other than these 2.... the designers needed to be more careful with how they made those skills (and in my opinion, once you get past Shadow Master Basic, the stealth system breaks the game since it removes all challenge in the game... up to Shadow Master Basic, the stealth system is solid since there is always at least some risk you can be seen and die.)

It removes the challenge of being stealthy, yes. And so it should, for the reasons I stated in my previous post. Player skill shouldn't be the deciding factor when using maximised abilities in an RPG. If you've maxed out stealth, then Mike is too good at being stealthy for a bad player to mess things up for him.