Katyn - The Truth

[213374U]

Your evasion is only difficult to detect in your own twisted mind. I actually wrote out an entire post in response to your post, but your evasion is pissing me off, so I'm not going to respond to your posts until you answer the original question or admit that you were wrong. I have proffered evidence for everything that I've said that was fact, but you're relying on a style-over-substance fallacy and thus avoiding backing up your own arguments (supposedly based on fact, not that anyone could tell from reading your posts).

Really, I'm pissing you off? Great, I must be doing something right!

 

And no, you haven't shown any evidence regarding your fair and balanced blanket statements about any party that isn't the CPSU. But that's okay, take your time.

[lord of flies]

Really, I'm pissing you off? Great, I must be doing something right!

Is this a confession to trolling I see? Mods?

And no, you haven't shown any evidence regarding your fair and balanced blanket statements about any party that isn't the CPSU. But that's okay, take your time.

I asked you first.

[213374U]

Is this a confession to trolling I see? Mods?

You misunderstand. I meant it literally -- It's been established beyond any reasonable doubt that you are like a compass, unfailingly pointing towards the wrong. So if what I'm saying doesn't sit well with you, it's obviously because I'm on the right track.

 

 

asked you first.

So your "asking first" (demanding proof of what is essentially an analytical observation) somehow gives you carte blanche to spout off random nonsense? Nice. I'll be sure to casually ask you to prove that it's gravity that makes things fall down in each subsequent post, just for kicks.

 

Anyway, I'm not going to compile an international historical vote intention survey library for you. I have much better things to do with my time, such as dozing off. Disregard that particular point if you want, and get to work on the rest. You have your work cut out for you. Go on...

[Walsingham]

I'd dearly love to know what LoF actually does for a living.

[Blarghagh]

I'd like to know why whenever he begins to lose an argument he resorts to "You're trolling! I'll report you! MODS!!"

 

The report button is not a tool for threatening people who disagree with you.

[lord of flies]

I'd like to know why whenever he begins to lose an argument he resorts to "You're trolling! I'll report you! MODS!!"

 

The report button is not a tool for threatening people who disagree with you.

Uh, I don't report people when I'm "losing an argument" (feel free to find a case of this, you will find that it Never Happened). In this case, I (jokingly) mentioned reporting 213374U because he has been extremely evasive and has decided to carefully avoid actually responding to my points. If you think that he was "winning" the argument because of that, then I weep for you.

 

Alright, 213374U, since you've effectively surrendered on that point, here is my response to your last post with an actual argument in it rather than pure evasion.

The USSR engaged in imperialism as much as it could. Show why imperialism necessitates capitalism and how that relates to Soviet foreign policy.

Nice red herring. What does the USSR engaging in imperialism (assuming it did) have to do with the understanding of capitalism as a world system which must systematically spread itself across the globe or perish?

 

Hey, what's the vote % for communist parties in those countries? Yeah, they sure want back on the Iron Curtain.

The last statistic there shows that the more people experienced real, living socialism, the more they want it back. How can you read that any other way?

No. The question was brought up in the same document you brought up as "evidence" that people want communism back, so it's perfectly relevant. It is in fact your attempt to disregard part of the document that is dishonest.

No. Suppose there was a document which studied actual lifestyle differences between Nigeria and Sweden, and found in every metric that life in Sweden was better, but found that subjective happiness (i.e. response to "are you happy") was better in Nigeria. You would still be wrong to claim that things are better in Nigeria because of it. You are basing your argument on questions that are useless for any real data, but absolutely refuse to accept it just because "it's in the same document." Useful statistics and useless statistics can appear in the same document, actually.

[213374U]

(feel free to find a case of this, you will find that it Never Happened)

Of course not. But then, one must remember to consider your definition of "success" when reading these things. I guess that at least you are consistent. Consistently mediocre, but nobody's perfect.

 

 

Nice red herring. What does the USSR engaging in imperialism (assuming it did) have to do with the understanding of capitalism as a world system which must systematically spread itself across the globe or perish?

This is starting to become tiresome. If you can't keep track of points, there's no point in even replying to you. See, this one came from your original assertion that 19th century colonial exploitation models and present global capitalism are the same thing, remember?

 

If we call those A and B respectively, and C is Soviet imperialism, then we have on one hand A = B (your original statement), and A = C (Soviet imperialism). Therefore, B = C (Soviet imperialism equals global capitalism), which is obviously false. Logic says that the error must be in the premises if an impossible conclusion is reached. Since the only unsupported premise here is your silly idea that Victorian Era colonialism is one and the same as capitalism "same dog different collar", this must be false. Go on and attack the other premise, though ("allegations of Soviet imperialism are just a part of the larger worldwide zionist bourgeois reactionary conspiracy!"). That's always a blast to read.

 

 

The last statistic there shows that the more people experienced real, living socialism, the more they want it back. How can you read that any other way?

No, that just adds to the already wide pool of data supporting the analytical observation that older people tend to be more conservative than the young. No, I'm not going to dig up a ton of documentation on this either, since most of it is not freely available on the internet anyway. Do a Google search, you can start with "Liberal Hearts and Conservative Brains".

 

And of course, there's the other reading of the chart: people like capitalism and democracy better -- those in the two middle groups did experience both systems and still favor the current state of affairs.

 

 

Useful statistics and useless statistics can appear in the same document, actually.

Hahaha. And now you'll tell me that you're going to be the one deciding which are important and which are useless. Right. Thanks, but I'll keep my own counsel on what is relevant and what isn't. You can keep your lobotomy vouchers.

 

Your imaginary example is useless, too. People aren't being asked about "happiness" as an abstract concept either, they are being asked about general satisfaction. But here's the cool thing: the survey is comparative between communism and capitalism, and people rate their lives better under capitalism. So, either people don't know what they are talking about (now and back under communism) and therefore this whole doc is useless as people can't be trusted, or people like their lives better under present conditions. You can't have both (eg. people knew back under communism but now they are under the influence of the worldwide zionist bourgeois reactionary propaganda conspiracy and can't be trusted!).

 

Pick one.

Edited May 1, 2010 by 213374U

[lord of flies]

This is starting to become tiresome. If you can't keep track of points, there's no point in even replying to you. See, this one came from your original assertion that 19th century colonial exploitation models and present global capitalism are the same thing, remember?

 

If we call those A and B respectively, and C is Soviet imperialism, then we have on one hand A = B (your original statement), and A = C (Soviet imperialism). Therefore, B = C (Soviet imperialism equals global capitalism), which is obviously false. Logic says that the error must be in the premises if an impossible conclusion is reached. Since the only unsupported premise here is your silly idea that Victorian Era colonialism is one and the same as capitalism "same dog different collar", this must be false. Go on and attack the other premise, though ("allegations of Soviet imperialism are just a part of the larger worldwide zionist bourgeois reactionary conspiracy!"). That's always a blast to read.

Blah blah blah, look at how wrong this post is. Here's the false premise: that all imperialism is equivalent to 19th century colonial exploitation, which is your claim, not mine.

And of course, there's the other reading of the chart: people like capitalism and democracy better -- those in the two middle groups did experience both systems and still favor the current state of affairs.

Yeah, that's why less than half the people in those groups in the Ukraine and Hungary approve, while Lithuania barely scrapes out a majority and Russia can't score both.

Your imaginary example is useless, too. People aren't being asked about "happiness" as an abstract concept either, they are being asked about general satisfaction. But here's the cool thing: the survey is comparative between communism and capitalism, and people rate their lives better under capitalism.

No, they aren't comparing their lives today to their lives twenty years ago. They are polled "are you satisfied with your life," once in 1991 and once in 2009. It is a useless question that produces meaningless results, which anybody who has even the most basic awareness of facts would know. I've already explained that this kind of statistic is useless and why: "are you satisfied" is a poor metric of anything actually real and has far more to do with someone's emotional state. Take a look at this ranking of countries by "satisfaction". Notice anything unusual, like the fact that apparently the Philippines is apparently a better place to live than Japan and South Korea?

[Wrath of Dagon]

A lot of people in Eastern Europe have had a rough transition from socialism to whatever embryonic form of capitalism they now have. That has nothing to do with the normally developed capitalism of the West.

[213374U]

Here's the false premise: that all imperialism is equivalent to 19th century colonial exploitation, which is your claim, not mine.

Uh-huh. So Soviet imperialism is fundamentally different from other kinds. It's an interesting theory and I'd like you to prove it. Remember: self-referencing isn't a valid proof method.

 

 

Yeah, that's why less than half the people in those groups in the Ukraine and Hungary approve, while Lithuania barely scrapes out a majority and Russia can't score both.

That's the best you can do? Cling to the few average results in that chart and wield them as proof that people overwhelmingly want a return to communism? What about the results for East Germany? Yeah, they want DDR back, for sure!

 

 

I've already explained that this kind of statistic is useless and why: "are you satisfied" is a poor metric of anything actually real and has far more to do with someone's emotional state.

Blah blah blah -- prove it. Specifically, prove how external factors such as political rights, personal freedoms and economic development have no relevance whatsoever to people's outlook on life and overall happiness. Edited May 1, 2010 by 213374U

[lord of flies]

Uh-huh. So Soviet imperialism is fundamentally different from other kinds. It's an interesting theory and I'd like you to prove it. Remember: self-referencing isn't a valid proof method.

Soviet "imperialism" was used to spread socialism and (more specifically) Marxist-Leninism. Victorian-era colonialism and modern neo-colonialism were used to spread capitalism.

 

Would you care to point out what part of the above statements was incorrect, so that I can go about proving it?

That's the best you can do? Cling to the few average results in that chart and wield them as proof that people overwhelmingly want a return to communism? What about the results for East Germany? Yeah, they want DDR back, for sure!

The DDR was a communist state foisted on the citizens of East Germany and was in many ways meant as a punishment for WW2.

I've already explained that this kind of statistic is useless and why: "are you satisfied" is a poor metric of anything actually real and has far more to do with someone's emotional state.

Blah blah blah -- prove it. Specifically, prove how external factors such as political rights, personal freedoms and economic development have no relevance whatsoever to people's outlook on life and overall happiness.

Um, I already did. Or do you think that the Philippines provides its citizens with more political rights, more personal freedoms and a better economy than that of Japan? Because if so, lol.