Mohammed Descendents Sue

[Meshugger]

Apparantly, someone tried to burn Vilks' house down last night. Windows were smashed, molotov ****tails were thrown in, and someone tried to put all the curtains on fire. Still though, the house didn't burn down, since the fire was not substantial enough and burned out by itself. Vilks himself was not at the house while it happened. The police are investigating the matter as arson.

 

More to come.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Apparantly, someone tried to burn Vilks' house down last night. Windows were smashed, molotov ****tails were thrown in, and someone tried to put all the curtains on fire. Still though, the house didn't burn down, since the fire was not substantial enough and burned out by itself. Vilks himself was not at the house while it happened. The police are investigating the matter as arson.

 

More to come.

 

I'm sure they were just attempting dialog.

[Walsingham]

EDIT:

 

It is the stated objective of extremist violence like that against Mr Vilks to try to polarise opinion and provoke excessive counter-reaction. LoF just posted exactly this point in the 'direct action' thread. These people - be they islamists, racists, animal rights extremists or anarchists - have no right to speak on behalf of anyone, and pretending they do simply makes them stronger. The real menace here is not Muslims, but the growing trend in world affairs for tiny numbers of professional lunatics to try and foist their values of purity/progress/revolution on democratic nations through violence and intimidation. THAT is the enemy which we should wake up to and which we should be fighting, whatever mask it wears.

 

 

~

Volo: I made a mistake by accusing of being Amerikan, but I stand by everything else. This is not about 'guilt' or existing responsiblity, it is about assuming responsibility. 'White culture' predominates in many countries, and those countries and cultures are strong enough to bear the responsibility for having our feelings hurt on the backswing of racism which our parents and grandparents sent flying outward. Surely you would not deny that someone has to break the cycle of claim and counter-claim. If not the stronger party then who?

 

Further it is perfectly valid to draw a distinction between making a few concessions to tender feelings and the genuine racism I already described. Just as it is valid to distinguish between a bruise and a broken bone, even though both are physical injuries.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Walsingham

[Volourn]

Racism is racism.

 

It's not about hurt feelings. I believe in REAL equality not this pretend garbage.

 

Then again, youa dmitted to being a bigot by assuming I was Amerikan and took that as a chance to bash Amerikans. I cna't takebigot seriously when disucsisng the evils of bigotry and racism.

[RPGmasterBoo]

It is the stated objective of extremist violence like that against Mr Vilks to try to polarise opinion and provoke excessive counter-reaction. LoF just posted exactly this point in the 'direct action' thread. These people - be they islamists, racists, animal rights extremists or anarchists - have no right to speak on behalf of anyone, and pretending they do simply makes them stronger. The real menace here is not Muslims, but the growing trend in world affairs for tiny numbers of professional lunatics to try and foist their values of purity/progress/revolution on democratic nations through violence and intimidation. THAT is the enemy which we should wake up to and which we should be fighting, whatever mask it wears.

 

This boils down to your belief that the people who commit these acts are extremists and do not enjoy widespread support in the muslim community. Unless you have concrete evidence that that is the case, like my own opinion on the matter - its no better than a hunch.

 

I would agree about all the other groups you mentioned, since none of them have a strong international backing (patron country).

[Walsingham]

@Boo:

 

You are correct about the premise for my belief. I do believe we are talking about tiny minorities of extremists. As for proof, I suggest that believing in ANY monolithic conspiracy formed of millions of people living in mltiple countries and even believing in different schools of the same religion is more demanding of proof.

 

By contrast my assertion that people everywhere, independent of creed or colour, are pretty decent and uininterested in anything more than the next meal or pair of shoes is pretty mild. I've done a lot of travelling ,and worked with Muslims, Sikhs, Thais, Zulus... you name it.

 

I insist on calling you on this point because your present argument is tantamount to a call to arms for a religious holocaust. I'm not keen on religious holocausts.

[RPGmasterBoo]

@Boo:

 

You are correct about the premise for my belief. I do believe we are talking about tiny minorities of extremists. As for proof, I suggest that believing in ANY monolithic conspiracy formed of millions of people living in mltiple countries and even believing in different schools of the same religion is more demanding of proof.

 

By contrast my assertion that people everywhere, independent of creed or colour, are pretty decent and uininterested in anything more than the next meal or pair of shoes is pretty mild. I've done a lot of travelling ,and worked with Muslims, Sikhs, Thais, Zulus... you name it.

 

I insist on calling you on this point because your present argument is tantamount to a call to arms for a religious holocaust. I'm not keen on religious holocausts.

 

There is quite a jump from "widely supported" to "monolithic conspiracy". I don't presume that everyone is acting on it, only that terrorist actions are not viewed with the same contempt you have for them.

 

That's a good assertion because its essentially correct. Hell, my best friend when I was in primary school in Botswana was a Saudi. But personal feelings and relations have nothing to do with geopolitics. Those are two completely different things. That's a lesson we in the Balkans know better. You'd be hard pressed to see anything wrong in day to day life in Bosnia now, but everyone knows that if a pin drops all hell will break loose. And what look like good neighbors today will be at each others throat tomorrow. You have never lived next to a civilization fundamentally incompatible with yours, so you have no conception of a conflict where the attempted outcome is cultural extinction. Even the worst moment for Britain in the 20th century, the Nazi aerial bombardments weren't a threat of a war of annihilation but a war of conquest.

 

If you think this is a paranoid fantasy you can look at what the Albanians in their triumphalism have done after the US won the war for them: burned christian churches and monasteries (what's left of them is protected by foreign troops and surrounded by barbed wire), wrecked graveyards, changed the names of places, killed and ghettoed what remained of the non-Albanian population. In short erased all trace of the existence of anyone else but them - under the protection of the US.

 

This is the reality:

The cross is on a christian church, you can guess the rest.

 

Last week they cut off phone lines and destroyed cell phone relays to Serbia, and what little is left of the Serb population in the north is completely cut off. Everyone suspects what's going to happen next.

 

What would you propose in such a situation? A cup of tea?

Edited May 17, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Gorgon]

Lol, yes it's nice to have pictures with one's stories.

[Morgoth]

I agree that Bosnia-Herzegowina is a ticking time bomb. Better split the country, give the Serbian areas to Serbia, and the Muslims have their own little land.

[Walsingham]

That's a good assertion because its essentially correct. Hell, my best friend when I was in primary school in Botswana was a Saudi. But personal feelings and relations have nothing to do with geopolitics. Those are two completely different things. That's a lesson we in the Balkans know better. You'd be hard pressed to see anything wrong in day to day life in Bosnia now, but everyone knows that if a pin drops all hell will break loose. And what look like good neighbors today will be at each others throat tomorrow. You have never lived next to a civilization fundamentally incompatible with yours, so you have no conception of a conflict where the attempted outcome is cultural extinction. Even the worst moment for Britain in the 20th century, the Nazi aerial bombardments weren't a threat of a war of annihilation but a war of conquest.

...*snip*...

What would you propose in such a situation? A cup of tea?

 

Excuse the snips.

 

Firstly, to be blunt and frankly a bit rude, I suggest that the Balkans can hardly be taken as a microcosm of normal relations between Muslims and Christians. Nor SHOULD those relations be held up as a model for the rest of the world to emulate through conflict.

 

Secondly, my mother was a white South African, my family lived in rural Zululand when I was a child, and we took extensive holidays there in later years. We had friends and family raped and murdered. I've been seen the victims of attacks, and been hauled out of a township myself in the teeth of an angry mob who would have cheerfully killed me. The threat was a war of annihilation by the oppressed black people of the country, aided by their 'brothers' across the borders. It's not the same as living as you do actually in the country. But I'd object to being described as totally ignorant.

 

South Africa avoided a total slaughter*. The message I would convey... the message Mandela would convey... the message my family would convey... the message my friends and former colleagues in the Army would convey... is PRECISELY that a cup of tea and a refusal to sink into the ritual pattern of antagonism is often the best (perhaps only) way to ensure peace. Not just peace between Christians and Muslims, but between English and French, Russians and Germans etc etc. A peace that can be buttressed by geopolitical treaties, economic forces, and force of arms; but which is hollow without that core of ordinary people meeting other ordinary people to focuss on their similarities and common humanity, not the ravings and violence of the minority.

 

 

*Although the extreme 'socialist' ANC plus HIV have done their best to wreck the country and violence does exist.