American politicians attempt to intervene in internal politics of peaceful middle-eastern country.

[lord of flies]

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Two Republican senators have once again introduced a draft bill in the US Congress seeking full support for the Iranian opposition and the overthrow of the Islamic Republic government in Iran.

 

Senators John Cornyn and Sam Brownback introduced the so-called

Edited February 17, 2010 by lord of flies

[Sand]

Peaceful?

 

Didn't their current president, who won by voter fraud, want to commit genocide by wiping out Israel? That doesn't sound to peaceful to me. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Iran having nuclear power, but I do mind them having nuclear weapons given their ties to Hezbollah and other terrorist organizations. If their nuclear ambitions are peaceful, why do they need weapon grade enrich uranium. The only reason to have weapon grade uranium is to make a nuclear weapon.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Sand

[lord of flies]

Didn't their current president, who won by voter fraud,

Irrelevant and unproven.

want to commit genocide by wiping out Israel?

The Israeli state is an unjust apartheid regime, desiring its elimination is not equivalent to genocide.

That doesn't sound to peaceful to me. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Iran having nuclear power, but I do mind them having nuclear weapons given their ties to Hezbollah and other terrorist organizations.

They aren't getting nuclear weapons and they wouldn't hand them out like candy to various paramilitary organizations even if they did.

If their nuclear ambitions are peaceful, why do they need weapons grade enrich uranium. The only reason to have weapon grade uranium is to make a nuclear weapon.,

Enriched uranium is a critical component for both civil nuclear power generation and military nuclear weapons.

[Highly enriched uranium] is also used in fast neutron reactors, whose cores require about 20% or more of fissile material, as well as in naval reactors, where it often contains at least 50% 235U, but typically does not exceed 90%. The Fermi-1 commercial fast reactor prototype used HEU with 26.5% 235U.

[Morgoth]

The only reason to have weapon grade uranium is to make a nuclear weapon.

Wrong. You also need low-enriched Uranium (up to 20%) for power reactors. That's what the Iran has done the whole time. If they'd build a nuclear device, they'd announce it and enrich it to 85%.

 

I don't think Iran is building a nuclear device.

 

But this totalitarian regime around Ahmadinedschad needs to be overthrown, for the sake of the Iranian people. But that's the job of the Iranian people, not of some foreign military power.

[Hurlshort]

I agree the US needs to stay out of this, but I'm a bit surprised LoF is against a people's movement like the one that has slowly been building up in Iran over the years.

[lord of flies]

I agree the US needs to stay out of this, but I'm a bit surprised LoF is against a people's movement like the one that has slowly been building up in Iran over the years.

Where did I say that I was against the "people's movement"? Just curious.

[Sand]

I say the US stays out of it unless the opposition party specifically and officially asks for US help in restoring Iran to be a proper democracy. I stand corrected on the uranium issue but I am wary of any more nuclear weapons of being made, regardless of the nation that seeks it. The Iranian government wants to eliminate Israel because it is controlled by Jews. The Arab people, specifically the Palestinians were given a choice of a peaceful option back in the 1960s, but they chose war. War that they lost. Those who lose at war that they themselves started deserve their fate.

 

Iran is too volatile and supports terrorists to have highly enriched uranium because it can be used for military weapons. It would be too much of a risk.

[Rostere]

I find it ironic that it was the US which originally threw Iran into dictatorship, and now they want to make the country democratic again... Nonetheless, the current oppressive Iranian state must fall and be replaced by a new system. It is doubtful how other countries might help without risking violence to break out though... It is also important to remember that the people of Iran are deeply divided between the progressive, liberal urban areas and the religious radical conservatives in the countryside. And on top of this you have the Revolutionary Guard. Let's just say that due to the complex political system, it's hard to say who really controls Iran today. The western media often make things look like Iran is on the brink of another revolution, but I'd rather say that Iran is on the brink of civil war, if the country is really on the brink of any kind of political upheaval.

[lord of flies]

I say the US stays out of it unless the opposition party specifically and officially asks for US help in restoring Iran to be a proper democracy. I stand corrected on the uranium issue but I am wary of any more nuclear weapons of being made, regardless of the nation that seeks it. The Iranian government wants to eliminate Israel because it is controlled by Jews. The Arab people, specifically the Palestinians were given a choice of a peaceful option back in the 1960s, but they chose war. War that they lost. Those who lose at war that they themselves started deserve their fate.

Iran has never been at war with Israel and isn't populated by Arabs. I don't see what your point is, except to defend the Israeli apartheid regime.

 

Further saying that Iran is "not a proper democracy" reeks of western-centric thinking. Does a single case of voter fraud make a country not a democracy? If that's so, the USA hasn't been democratic for a while now. What characteristics of the Islamic Republic are so thoroughly undemocratic? Not secular, sure, not holding to all the random little things westerners think make a country a "proper democracy," sure. But they have elections for their presidency, elections that are far more democratic than the United States' presidential election system.

[Sand]

Iran is primarily a theocracy. Until the theocratic ayatollahs are no longer in power any resemblance to a democracy is simply a joke, facade. The Iranian president is just a figurehead, with no real power. The ayatollahs have all the power thusly they are a theocracy.

 

Only through a fully secular democratic government can there be equality for all that are governed.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Sand

[Sand]

I don't see what your point is, except to defend the Israeli apartheid regime.

 

I do not defend it. I simply see it as a consequence of war that the Palestinians started and lost. If it was up to me I would have placed the Hebrew nation in Europe, taking chunks out of Germany, Italy, and Austria, but the past is the past. Palestine was given a choice and they chose war. They have no one to blame but themselves for making the wrong choice.

[Guard Dog]

Here is where I bring up the time tested wisdom of Monroe and Roosevelt (Teddy, the good cousin) of a strictly non-interventionist foreign policy beyond our own hemisphere. I know in the modern world we will never return to the Monroe Doctrine but it would be nice.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I said before this is what the US had in mind for Iran. Their nuclear program must be close to fruition.

Edited February 17, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Calax]

Here is where I bring up the time tested wisdom of Monroe and Roosevelt (Teddy, the good cousin) of a strictly non-interventionist foreign policy beyond our own hemisphere. I know in the modern world we will never return to the Monroe Doctrine but it would be nice.

Wasn't the only time we could have invoked the Monroe doctrine properly (as in not bending the rules for that) at the Falklands? At least, that's what one of my history teachers said way back when we learned about it for all of five seconds and then it was forgotten in favor of hero worship.

 

That said, I personally think that the US is way to supportive of the Israeli government, and often our view of what's going on there is skewed to be pro Israel because of the fact that they're using "Woe are we, we nearly were wiped out by Hitler, please, save me from those who want to do anything to me!" card so much it's not funny.

 

As to the "support iranian democracy!" schtick, That's something for the iranians to decide, america is already in the midst of trying to extract itself from two titanic foreign policy screw ups and is just barely getting back on the worlds good side, and to mettle in iran (and yes, it'd be mettling) would simply make the world start to throw up it's hands saying that we're a lost cause.

 

You know, if we ever actually want change in the legislature, we need to implement term limits.

[Guard Dog]

You know, if we ever actually want change in the legislature, we need to implement term limits.

Careful Calax, you'll start sounding like me if you keep thinking that way!

[Walsingham]

I'm still trying to get my teeth past 'peaceful middle-eastern country'.

[lord of flies]

I'm still trying to get my teeth past 'peaceful middle-eastern country'.

The last war Iran was involved in was a war of self-defense, western imperialist. Their current government has never invaded another country, which is more than you can say for yours.

Iran is primarily a theocracy. Until the theocratic ayatollahs are no longer in power any resemblance to a democracy is simply a joke, facade. The Iranian president is just a figurehead, with no real power. The ayatollahs have all the power thusly they are a theocracy.

 

Only through a fully secular democratic government can there be equality for all that are governed.

That's why everybody who doesn't like the current government, including Iranians, is complaining about the president and not the Supreme Leader.

[Sand]

If any of the opposition complained about the ayatollahs they would be declared enemy of God, then arrested and executed after a brief show trial. Also, we may have invaded a nation or two but one nation attacked us first and the other defied UN sanctions to the point that only way they would comply is if we invaded. We aren't trying to commit genocide, nor have our leaders continually spout off genocide of an entire people which the Iranian government has.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Sand

[jaguars4ever]

If any of the opposition complained about the ayatollahs they would be declared enemy of God, then arrested and executed after a brief show trial.

 

[lord of flies]

If any of the opposition complained about the ayatollahs they would be declared enemy of God, then arrested and executed after a brief show trial.

Evidence for this claim:

 

Also, we may have invaded a nation or two but one nation attacked us first and the other defied UN sanctions to the point that only way they would comply is if we invaded.

Oh, okay, so since we have the justification of "some of the nations we have invaded (recently) attacked us first" (note: Al-Qaeda and Afghanistan are not the same) and "they defied UN sanctions" (whatever that's supposed to mean), our invasions are completely justified, unlike Iran's non-existent invasions, which represent warmongering.

[Sand]

Evidence for this claim:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/02/11/...?iref=allsearch

 

Oh, okay, so since we have the justification of "some of the nations we have invaded (recently) attacked us first" (note: Al-Qaeda and Afghanistan are not the same) and "they defied UN sanctions" (whatever that's supposed to mean), our invasions are completely justified, unlike Iran's non-existent invasions, which represent warmongering.

 

Al Qaeda was what kept the Taliban in power in Afghanistan prior our invasion. The TRaliban is pretty much Al Qaeda and Al Qaeda is pretty much the Taliban. The Iranian government has made continual threats to Israel, fund and support terrorist organizations known to attack civilian targets, and seek to enrich uranium to the point that it can be used for nuclear weapons. Sure they don't invade countries. They prefer to act like cowards than seek a straight up fight.

[lord of flies]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/02/11/...?iref=allsearch

Two entire executions. Clearly a reign of terror.

Al Qaeda was what kept the Taliban in power in Afghanistan prior our invasion. The TRaliban is pretty much Al Qaeda and Al Qaeda is pretty much the Taliban.

Only if you don't understand anything. The Taliban was financed in part by Al-Qaeda, it was not their slave. They even offered to try Osama bin Laden in a local court, though the United States rejected this offer.

The Iranian government has made continual threats to Israel, fund and support terrorist organizations known to attack civilian targets, and seek to enrich uranium to the point that it can be used for nuclear weapons. Sure they don't invade countries. They prefer to act like cowards than seek a straight up fight.

The United States makes continual threats towards Iran, Yemen, et cetera, and fund and support governments known to attack civilian targets (e.g. Israel, Saudi Arabia), and they actually have nuclear weapons. What's your point? That Iran is better than the United States?

[Sand]

Yeah, what a joke trial that would have been. Locally tied, Osama would be found innocent of all charges. Only an idiot would believe such a trial would give any other verdict. The Taliban was a vicious, bigoted regime that treated women like property, killed anyone who didn't follow their form of Islam, and supported Al Qaeda.

 

As for the executions, you wanted proof and I gave it to you and I am sure as the opposition continues more people will be judged as "enemies of God."

 

The only reason why we have a threatening posture against Iran isw because they support terrorism. Same with Yemen. Israel's attacks on Palestinians are only reciprocal on the attacks against them. If the Palestinians didn't attack Israel, along with a small host of other Islamic nations, in the first place back in the 1960s they wouldn't have these problems now. The Palestinians brought it upon themselves. Am I suppose to have sympathy for those who are stupid?

[lord of flies]

Yeah, what a joke trial that would have been. Locally tied, Osama would be found innocent of all charges. Only an idiot would believe such a trial would give any other verdict.

Would he? Do you know that? Can you give me evidence that would prove that?

The Taliban was a vicious, bigoted regime that treated women like property, killed anyone who didn't follow their form of Islam, and supported Al Qaeda.

Sounds totally different from the new regime.

The only reason why we have a threatening posture against Iran isw because they support terrorism. Same with Yemen.

Hezbollah is a resistance movement, not a terrorist organization.

Israel's attacks on Palestinians are only reciprocal on the attacks against them. If the Palestinians didn't attack Israel, along with a small host of other Islamic nations, in the first place back in the 1960s they wouldn't have these problems now. The Palestinians brought it upon themselves. Am I suppose to have sympathy for those who are stupid?

Nations are not one person. Are all Palestinians alive today (even most) responsible for getting into a war with Israel? The answer is no.

 

Also, Israel's attacks on Palestinians are wildly disproportionate.

[Orogun01]

Would he? Do you know that? Can you give me evidence that would prove that?

Regardless, he should we tried for the 9/11 attacks on the US or by an impartial party.

]Hezbollah is a resistance movement, not a terrorist organization.

So was the I.R.A.

Nations are not one person. Are all Palestinians alive today (even most) responsible for getting into a war with Israel? The answer is no.

 

Also, Israel's attacks on Palestinians are wildly disproportionate.

So was the US invasion following the 9/11 incident, war is not fair and a lot of innocents get swept on it.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Orogun01