Ask me about Communism.

[I want teh kotor 3]

Yes. Its money being taken from its rightful owner. That's theft, whether the government's doing it or not.

 

No, it's part of a social contract: you want society's protections and benefits, you contribute in the form of taxes. You don't, you go live by yourself in the hills or move to a lawless country or something.

 

Why? The poor get many more benefits (welfare, food stamps, etc.) than I do; why should I pay more, or at all for that matter, for stuff I don't use?

 

Redistributing wealth is just political correct talk for theft.

Nope!

 

Yes. Its money being taken from its rightful owner. That's theft, whether the government's doing it or not.

 

Nope!

 

Is that a LoF imitation, or a legit response?

Edited December 20, 2009 by I want teh kotor 3

[Humodour]

why should I pay more, or at all for that matter, for stuff I don't use?

 

Such as police, roads, military and whatnot?

[Trenitay]

Wealth is for those who owns it LoF, either by hard work, by being smart, or being an heir to one who was.

Generational wealth is literally the Worst Thing.

No. Hell no. I'm an inheritor; my grandfather left me an obscene sum, and my grandmother will leave me even more. That doesn't make me any less motivated to contribute; if anything, it makes me more motivated, because I feel obligated to increase the family fortune. Why is that bad?

 

 

So wait, getting money given to me makes me less motivated but if it's given to you it makes you more motivated?

[Guard Dog]

Wealth is for those who owns it LoF, either by hard work, by being smart, or being an heir to one who was.

Generational wealth is literally the Worst Thing.

No. Hell no. I'm an inheritor; my grandfather left me an obscene sum, and my grandmother will leave me even more. That doesn't make me any less motivated to contribute; if anything, it makes me more motivated, because I feel obligated to increase the family fortune. Why is that bad?

 

 

So wait, getting money given to me makes me less motivated but if it's given to you it makes you more motivated?

Does it make you less motivated? If so that says something about your character, not our society, economic system or way of life. Just as it says something about KOTORs character if he is motivated to live up to his inhertiance.

 

I could make the same statement about welfare. There are some who recieve it who use it to turn their circumstances around and get back up on their feet. There are others who arrange their lives to live within it's means and settle in for a carefree life of doing nothing and living off the labor of others like some kind of parasite. I do not pretend to know the ratio between the two but you can bet large there is far more of the latter than the former.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Which is why I am for some form of welfare reform that would force recipients to do hours of community service to earn their welfare check.

[Pidesco]

Why? The poor get many more benefits (welfare, food stamps, etc.) than I do; why should I pay more, or at all for that matter, for stuff I don't use?

 

Caritas

[taks]

Caritas

is it still charity when coerced? i mean, the whole point of charity is that it is given willingly, not through threat of imprisonment.

 

taks

[Pidesco]

The point is that everyone should do it willingly, and if they don't they're evil, or at least should feel guilty and suffer for their sins. Despite rejecting religion, communism is still neck deep in christian morality, like practically all western thought.

 

If everyone wants to do it, is not coercion. See, also, why Marxism-Leninism is a load of fascist bollocks, and why Marxism is more part of a philosophical, idealist, evolutionary view of society, typical of the time, than the fascist clusterbungle that Bolshevism turned it into.

[Oblarg]

And there's also the point that is logistically impossible to provide large-scale services and only charge the people who use them.

 

As for welfare and food stamps, if you seriously think that the people in poverty starving to death deserve it because it's their own fault that they're poor, you're an arrogant bastard. Our society is not flawless.

[Humodour]

And there's also the point that is logistically impossible to provide large-scale services and only charge the people who use them.

 

As for welfare and food stamps, if you seriously think that the people in poverty starving to death deserve it because it's their own fault that they're poor, you're an arrogant bastard. Our society is not flawless.

 

That's one of the main problems I have with egotists like taks who whine about taxes being 'coercion'.

[Lare Kikkeli]

I'd rather pay 40% of my income in taxes and have a safe, peaceful community with an as small as possible gap between the rich and the poor than have a bit more money and have to be scared that some neglected slum thug will kill me for my shoes.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Lare Kikkeli

[213374U]

As for welfare and food stamps, if you seriously think that the people in poverty starving to death deserve it because it's their own fault that they're poor, you're an arrogant bastard. Our society is not flawless.

No, but it's difficult to quantify the proportion of people that are homeless due exclusively to circumstances outside their control. In many cases the much toted "unfairness of society" isn't to blame, but an inability/unwillingness to live otherwise, compounded by mental and drugs/alcoholism problems. With public education being freely available (and compulsory) and vocational training being easy to access, it's difficult to write off homelessness just as an unavoidable byproduct of society. And, ahem, the Army's always recruiting, I hear.

 

It isn't the 1930's anymore, fortunately.

[lord of flies]

As for welfare and food stamps, if you seriously think that the people in poverty starving to death deserve it because it's their own fault that they're poor, you're an arrogant bastard. Our society is not flawless.

No, but it's difficult to quantify the proportion of people that are homeless due exclusively to circumstances outside their control. In many cases the much toted "unfairness of society" isn't to blame, but an inability/unwillingness to live otherwise, compounded by mental and drugs/alcoholism problems. With public education being freely available (and compulsory) and vocational training being easy to access, it's difficult to write off homelessness just as an unavoidable byproduct of society. And, ahem, the Army's always recruiting, I hear.

 

It isn't the 1930's anymore, fortunately.

"Just go die in idiotic imperialist wars because the leadership of your country left your school in shambles, criminalized perfectly fine consumer goods, and pissed all over the general structure of your neighborhood." - Internet poster "Too Elite For You"

 

Endemic poverty has been sustained via targeted government action and inaction. Don't try any equivocation bull**** on me; yes, it's possible for someone in very bad conditions to make a good life for themselves in the capitalist system. It is, however, much, much less likely, and since large groups closely conform to statistics...

[Guard Dog]

I'd rather pay 40% of my income in taxes and have a safe, peaceful community with an as small as possible gap between the rich and the poor than have a bit more money and have to be scared that some neglected slum thug will kill me for my shoes.

 

Heck, I'm paying 40% of my income in taxes now and we don't have that. Whats the magic number? 70%? LoF would say it's 100% but he's wrong. Goverment is incapable of creating a "fair" or "equitable" society without reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator. In other words, you would not have to worry about the slum thug robbing you because you're just as broke as he is. It's funny though the leaders of these totalitarian/communist never seem to miss any meals while their people are starving.

[Lare Kikkeli]

I'd rather pay 40% of my income in taxes and have a safe, peaceful community with an as small as possible gap between the rich and the poor than have a bit more money and have to be scared that some neglected slum thug will kill me for my shoes.

 

Heck, I'm paying 40% of my income in taxes now and we don't have that. Whats the magic number? 70%? LoF would say it's 100% but he's wrong. Goverment is incapable of creating a "fair" or "equitable" society without reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator. In other words, you would not have to worry about the slum thug robbing you because you're just as broke as he is. It's funny though the leaders of these totalitarian/communist never seem to miss any meals while their people are starving.

 

Well obviously you're directing the taxes wrong. If the US really had the same tax level as Finland you'd be abled to have all the benefits we have (free education up until university level, universal haelth care, student benefits & cheap housing etc. etc.).

[Killian Kalthorne]

I'd rather pay 40% of my income in taxes and have a safe, peaceful community with an as small as possible gap between the rich and the poor than have a bit more money and have to be scared that some neglected slum thug will kill me for my shoes.

 

I read somewhere from a very wise man once said that those who trade safety for liberty deserves neither.

[Killian Kalthorne]

As a capitalistic society I think we have aour tax system all wrong for it. Income taxes is good for a more socialistic society that has a less free market base thant he US. Instead of income taxes, which I think we need to get rid of completely, is to have a federalized sales tax system that is scaled based on the retail cost of the item in question. Instead of being taxed on the income earned, you tax based on how much one spends. I think that would be far more fairer for the poor and rich alike.

[Lare Kikkeli]

I'd rather pay 40% of my income in taxes and have a safe, peaceful community with an as small as possible gap between the rich and the poor than have a bit more money and have to be scared that some neglected slum thug will kill me for my shoes.

 

I read somewhere from a very wise man once said that those who trade safety for liberty deserves neither.

 

How is that relevant to the tax %? I'm as free as you are, probably more so because the free education and health care gives me a better chance to survive and educate myself, and if I so choose move elsewhere.

 

I'm a lot more free than someone born into poverty or lower middle class in the states for example.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Maybe. Maybe not. However I like the money I earn, that I work for, go to me and only to me and only for my benefit. After all I earn my money. I don't want it to go to some someone who is too lazy to get off their ass and make an honest living. If one is infirm or disabled in some way, then that is understandable however if you are capable of working then there is no excuse. Get off your ass and get a job. Fast food restaurants are always hiring. At least where I live.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Killian Kalthorne

[Lare Kikkeli]

Maybe. Maybe not. However I like the money I earn, that I work for, go to me and only to me and only for my benefit. After all I earn my money. I don't want it to go to some someone who is too lazy to get off their ass and make an honest living. If one is infirm or disabled in some way, then that is understandable however if you are capable of working then there is no excuse. Get off your ass and get a job. Fast food restaurants are always hiring. At least where I live.

 

I dont understand what you're babbling about. Working full time on minimum wage gives you a lot more money here than living on benefits.

[Killian Kalthorne]

That isn't the case here. We have people who abuse the welfare system here and work the system that they live a better life not working than if they decided to get a job. I hate those fraking lazy bastards. If you can afford a nice car and a cellphone you do not need food stamps or housing assistance, damn it.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Killian Kalthorne

[Lare Kikkeli]

That isn't the case here. We have people who abuse the welfare system here and work the system that they live a better life not working than if they decided to get a job. I hate those fraking lazy bastards. If you can afford a nice car and a cellphone you do not need food stamps or housing assistance, damn it.

 

I see that more of a problem with yo low minimum pay or the lack thereof than welfare.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Lare Kikkeli

[Humodour]

That isn't the case here. We have people who abuse the welfare system here and work the system that they live a better life not working than if they decided to get a job. I hate those fraking lazy bastards. If you can afford a nice car and a cellphone you do not need food stamps or housing assistance, damn it.

 

Kids working part-time as casuals here earn more per week than welfare provides, and to get welfare you need to prove you're actively jobseeking. Maybe something in your country needs to be changed.

 

Welfare here really is the bare minimum necessary to survive: food, rent, and bills (AFAIK). Then again minimum wage here is also double that in America (which is partly due to things like purchasing parity and exchange rate, but it's still quite a gap).

 

So I think that the problems you describe are symptomatic of problems in the structure of welfare in America, rather than problems with welfare outright.

 

That's not to say that we don't have dole bludgers here: it's just hard to be one, and it's not something you'd ever aspire to or think "gee, that sounds easy, I'll cruise on that" unless you were the lowest of the low.

[213374U]

Endemic poverty has been sustained via targeted government action and inaction. Don't try any equivocation bull**** on me; yes, it's possible for someone in very bad conditions to make a good life for themselves in the capitalist system. It is, however, much, much less likely, and since large groups closely conform to statistics...

Boo ****ing hoo. Aye, that brought a tear to me eye, it did.

 

I think I'm starting to see a pattern in your posts. You simply cannot deal with the fact that the world is fundamentally harsh and unjust. Maybe that's why you get a boner when you go on about all those mad totalitarian state utopies?

 

Sorry, I'm not buying whatever it is you're selling... your antics are pretty amusing, though.

[Guard Dog]

Lare I see the logic you are using but you need to understand something. The US is a market economy. That means there are no price controls, etc. For example only: A hamburger at McDonalds costs $2. McDonalds decided on that price based on simple economics, a 2-4% profit after all the expenses to get it from the cow to the wrapper the ugly girl hands you at the counter. Incidently in the US most profit margins are LESS than 4%. Greedy cororations huh? Anyway, that is figuring in the cost of the labor of all the people who worked to put the hamburger in your hand, most of whom did earn minimum wage. Let's face it, that is not skilled labor there. If the price of the labor increases, the price of the hamburger also increases to keep pace with the additional cost of production. You see the trouble here? It's great that the minimum wage earner has more money but that can buy less with it because costs have increased. Thats why increases in the minimum wage do so little good. That was never intended to be a living wage. It was intended to be for kids and adults in need of supplemantal income.

 

The idea should not be to increase the minimum, the idea should be to create a marketplace with enough skill jobs and applicants to fill them. The creation part is easy, get the government out of the way and let business men/women do business. As for the second there are literally thousands of opportunities for free/nearly free adult education in the US. Even college. I earned a BSEE from a State University in Florida and the Federal Government paid for more than half of it. I was working on my MSEE before I lost my old job and my company was paying for it. I was born with fewer opportunities than most, my father was a barely employed dump truck driver, my mother was disabled. I grew up in a mobile home in a dirt poor town. But when I got out of high school I took advantage of the same opportunities that are trhere for everone and my life turned out just fine. Thats why I get aggaravated hearing people say we don't do enough for the poor here in the US. There are tens of thousands of opportunites to stop being poor but we do not spoon feed them to you. Like Killian said, you have to get off your ass and work.