Killian Kalthorne Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 However the problem with socialism and communism is the lack of motivation to improve one's self and one';s family. In socialism and communism one can work hard all his or her life, make the right decisions, and by the end have nothing to show for it. Under capitalism a person can work hard all his or her life, make the right decisions on saving money and investing, and towards the end live comfortably and know his or her family will be taken care of by their hard work. Without that motivation under socialism there is no reason to excel in anything. No reason to be innovative. No reward for being exceptional. That is where Communism fails. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord of flies Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 However the problem with socialism and communism is the lack of motivation to improve one's self and one';s family. In socialism and communism one can work hard all his or her life, make the right decisions, and by the end have nothing to show for it. Under capitalism a person can work hard all his or her life, make the right decisions on saving money and investing, and towards the end live comfortably and know his or her family will be taken care of by their hard work. Without that motivation under socialism there is no reason to excel in anything. No reason to be innovative. No reward for being exceptional. That is where Communism fails. Jesus Christ.SOCIALISM NEVER PRESCRIBED PERFECT OR TOTAL EQUALITY. THAT HAS NEVER BEEN THE POINT OF SOCIALISM. IT DID NOT EXIST IN THE USSR, IT DID NOT EXIST IN CHINA, AND NO SOCIALIST STATE SERIOUSLY PURSUED IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Didn't Marx predict that communism would eventually make government obsolete, as the working class would control their own destiny? That sounds fairly free market to me, unfortunately it never seems to work out that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord of flies Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Didn't Marx predict that communism would eventually make government obsolete, as the working class would control their own destiny? That sounds fairly free market to me, unfortunately it never seems to work out that way. Yes, though when Marx says "communism" it means something very different from when Lenin says "communism." Communism in his model was a point of production so great that no work was required and the stateless state formed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 You can keep up military spending constantly no matter how ****ty your economy is going. Indeed, it's very common to do so. See for example, Germany in the late 1930s, and the Soviets during the "Brezhnev stagnation." Your reference to their economy is still irrelevant.I see what you did there. You can keep up military spending constantly no matter how ****ty your economy is going. But you cannot do so "more or less indefinitely", which is what both what I posted and your own examples illustrate. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 However the problem with socialism and communism is the lack of motivation to improve one's self and one';s family. In socialism and communism one can work hard all his or her life, make the right decisions, and by the end have nothing to show for it. Under capitalism a person can work hard all his or her life, make the right decisions on saving money and investing, and towards the end live comfortably and know his or her family will be taken care of by their hard work. Without that motivation under socialism there is no reason to excel in anything. No reason to be innovative. No reward for being exceptional. That is where Communism fails. Jesus Christ.SOCIALISM NEVER PRESCRIBED PERFECT OR TOTAL EQUALITY. THAT HAS NEVER BEEN THE POINT OF SOCIALISM. IT DID NOT EXIST IN THE USSR, IT DID NOT EXIST IN CHINA, AND NO SOCIALIST STATE SERIOUSLY PURSUED IT. I did not say perfect or total equality. I said it takes away the motivation to improve oneself because if one works hard all his or her life to gain wealth that wealth would be taken away from the person and his or her family in order to be redistributed. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lare Kikkeli Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 You don't get it do you Visceris? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Isn't it the whole point of of communism is to take the wealth of the rich and redistribute it evenly among the population? If a person and his or her family worked hard to get rich then just have it taken away then what is the point of working hard in the first place? "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oblarg Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 However the problem with socialism and communism is the lack of motivation to improve one's self and one';s family. In socialism and communism one can work hard all his or her life, make the right decisions, and by the end have nothing to show for it. Under capitalism a person can work hard all his or her life, make the right decisions on saving money and investing, and towards the end live comfortably and know his or her family will be taken care of by their hard work. Without that motivation under socialism there is no reason to excel in anything. No reason to be innovative. No reward for being exceptional. That is where Communism fails. Jesus Christ.SOCIALISM NEVER PRESCRIBED PERFECT OR TOTAL EQUALITY. THAT HAS NEVER BEEN THE POINT OF SOCIALISM. IT DID NOT EXIST IN THE USSR, IT DID NOT EXIST IN CHINA, AND NO SOCIALIST STATE SERIOUSLY PURSUED IT. I did not say perfect or total equality. I said it takes away the motivation to improve oneself because if one works hard all his or her life to gain wealth that wealth would be taken away from the person and his or her family in order to be redistributed. You still don't understand what he's saying. He's saying the "wealth" you'd gain would be proportional to your direct contribution to the collective well-being. Thus, businessmen could not make a fortune exploiting other people's contributions to society. There's plenty of motive to do good for the society, there's simply no motive to attempt to gain profit from other people doing good for the society. The main problem with this is that it's very hard to quantify how much someone contributes to society. "The universe is a yawning chasm, filled with emptiness and the puerile meanderings of sentience..." - Ulyaoth "It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built." - Kreia "I thought this forum was for Speculation & Discussion, not Speculation & Calling People Trolls." - lord of flies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) If a person lets themselves to be exploited then they deserve to be exploited. Why should a person who works hard all his life be even concerned with the well being of a bugger who is pretty much a couch potato and has done nothing to earn the redistributed wealth? What right does the man who does nothing to earn his wealth have to take the wealth of one who has worked hard to earn it? Edited December 17, 2009 by Killian Kalthorne "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenitay Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Being rich doesn't make you hard-working, and being poor doesn't make you lazy. Hey now, my mother is huge and don't you forget it. The drunk can't even get off the couch to make herself a vodka drenched sandwich. Octopus suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I have seen people stiff welfare and milk the system while having cellphones, expensive cars, and what not. Nothing irks me more than seeing someone trying to buy food with foodstamps while yapping away on an expensive cellphone. Its called priorities. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oblarg Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) If a person lets themselves to be exploited then they deserve to be exploited. Why should a person who works hard all his life be even concerned with the well being of a bugger who is pretty much a couch potato and has done nothing to earn the redistributed wealth? What right does the man who does nothing to earn his wealth have to take the wealth of one who has worked hard to earn it? Because people who work hard, low-paying jobs are certainly leeches who contribute nothing to society. ****. Edit: I can't believe that word is censored. Edited December 17, 2009 by Oblarg "The universe is a yawning chasm, filled with emptiness and the puerile meanderings of sentience..." - Ulyaoth "It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built." - Kreia "I thought this forum was for Speculation & Discussion, not Speculation & Calling People Trolls." - lord of flies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I work hard and low payin gyet guess what. I don't leech the system. I don't expect the government to bail me out. Even though I qualify for food stamps, aid for paying my heating and water bills, and a crap ton of other government aid I do not. I stay self sustaining, yet I see everyday people milking the system for all its worth and it makes me sick. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oblarg Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I work hard and low payin gyet guess what. I don't leech the system. I don't expect the government to bail me out. Even though I qualify for food stamps, aid for paying my heating and water bills, and a crap ton of other government aid I do not. I stay self sustaining, yet I see everyday people milking the system for all its worth and it makes me sick. It's not "bailing you out." Why should you be paid less than people who contribute literally nothing to society? That's the idea behind socialism. "The universe is a yawning chasm, filled with emptiness and the puerile meanderings of sentience..." - Ulyaoth "It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built." - Kreia "I thought this forum was for Speculation & Discussion, not Speculation & Calling People Trolls." - lord of flies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenitay Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I know people like that too. I also know people who have worked hard all their life and can't afford a cell phone. Hey now, my mother is huge and don't you forget it. The drunk can't even get off the couch to make herself a vodka drenched sandwich. Octopus suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 If I am not satisfied with my pay I do what I can to improve it. I go to school, I ask for a raise, I find a higher paying job, and what not. I put forth the effort to better myself. That is the way it should be. Self determinism and self worth is what should drive us, not being on the government's teet because we feel "entitled" for something we did not earn. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenitay Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Other people do that too it doesn't mean they can afford any more food to feed their families. Hey now, my mother is huge and don't you forget it. The drunk can't even get off the couch to make herself a vodka drenched sandwich. Octopus suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) Prioritize then. If you cannot afford to have a family then don't have a family. If you cannot afford something then you don't go out and have it. It is not that hard to figure out. If you can't afford to get married or have kids, well don't get married or have kids. If you cannot afford a house don't take loans you can't pay back to get a house. If you can't afford the pot roast then get pot noodle. Edited December 17, 2009 by Killian Kalthorne "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oblarg Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 If I am not satisfied with my pay I do what I can to improve it. I go to school, I ask for a raise, I find a higher paying job, and what not. I put forth the effort to better myself. That is the way it should be. Self determinism and self worth is what should drive us, not being on the government's teet because we feel "entitled" for something we did not earn. That's a very naive point of view. Our society is not structured such that you can improve your standard of living purely through hard work, and to think otherwise is just denial. "The universe is a yawning chasm, filled with emptiness and the puerile meanderings of sentience..." - Ulyaoth "It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built." - Kreia "I thought this forum was for Speculation & Discussion, not Speculation & Calling People Trolls." - lord of flies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenitay Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Prioritize then. If you cannot afford to have a family then don't have a family. If you cannot afford something then you don't go out and have it. It is not that hard to figure out. If you can't afford to get married or have kids, well don't get married or have kids. If you cannot afford a house don't take loans you can't pay back to get a house. If you can't afford the pot roast then get pot noodle. And what about the children of that family. They should just suffer for their parents bad decisions, or single bad decision. Hey now, my mother is huge and don't you forget it. The drunk can't even get off the couch to make herself a vodka drenched sandwich. Octopus suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Hey, I survived a single parent home where day to day living was stretched thin. If I could survive it then anyone can. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oblarg Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Hey, I survived a single parent home where day to day living was stretched thin. If I could survive it then anyone can. I'm convinced you're trolling at this point. "The universe is a yawning chasm, filled with emptiness and the puerile meanderings of sentience..." - Ulyaoth "It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built." - Kreia "I thought this forum was for Speculation & Discussion, not Speculation & Calling People Trolls." - lord of flies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Me? I never troll. I may act like an ogre or hobgoblin once in a while but never troll. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asol Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) If I am not satisfied with my pay I do what I can to improve it. I go to school, I ask for a raise, I find a higher paying job, and what not. I put forth the effort to better myself. That is the way it should be. Self determinism and self worth is what should drive us, not being on the government's teet because we feel "entitled" for something we did not earn. That's a very naive point of view. Our society is not structured such that you can improve your standard of living purely through hard work, and to think otherwise is just denial. Perhaps that is a self inhibiting attitude. Edited December 17, 2009 by Asol All deception is self deception all hypnosis is auto-hypnosis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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