More inspiring stuff

[Walsingham]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/0...tunnel-14-years

 

Indian chap digs tunnel using handtools for 14 years. Helps himself, and other villagers. Amazing what can be done with a lot of faith, hardwork, and total disdain for bureaucracy.

[Rosbjerg]

I really like the Indians, sure they are weird, difficult to understand, prone to unbelievable bureaucracy and can be so confusing that you feel like punching them .. but the average dude usually knows how to simply get **** done without making a big fuss about it!

[Guard Dog]

A little lesson for the mulititudes of people who seem to want their government to take over everything.

[theslug]

Sounds great but I think its just a matter of time before tragedy strikes. The guy maybe Indian but he's probably no geologist/engineer/miner/astronaut.

[Purkake]

He could have been the next Stephen Hawking or Einstein, but instead he wastes his talent on digging.

[Gorgon]

A little lesson for the mulititudes of people who seem to want their government to take over everything.

And the lesson is that it's better to do in 22 years what a municipal work crew could have done in a week

[Slowtrain]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/0...tunnel-14-years

 

Indian chap digs tunnel using handtools for 14 years. Helps himself, and other villagers. Amazing what can be done with a lot of faith, hardwork, and total disdain for bureaucracy.

 

 

If by inspiring you mean stupid, then OK.

[TheHarlequin]

A little lesson for the mulititudes of people who seem to want their government to take over everything.

 

Right... because letting big business run things is soooo much better in the end. *rolls eyes* At least the govt does not care about making a profit. Hells they have made loosing money science. Let the ppl who couldnt care less about making a buck run the show is fine by me. Better then some profit wh*re compnay.

[Walsingham]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/0...tunnel-14-years

 

Indian chap digs tunnel using handtools for 14 years. Helps himself, and other villagers. Amazing what can be done with a lot of faith, hardwork, and total disdain for bureaucracy.

 

 

If by inspiring you mean stupid, then OK.

 

Hmmm. You may have a point. But then I'm usually doing stupiod things, so being inspired by stupid makes sense.

[Guard Dog]

Right... because letting big business run things is soooo much better in the end. *rolls eyes* At least the govt does not care about making a profit. Hells they have made loosing money science. Let the ppl who couldnt care less about making a buck run the show is fine by me. Better then some profit wh*re compnay.

 

I might live to be a 100 but I will never... ever understand this way of thinking. First of all, you do realize governments don't actually build anything right? They contract PRIVATE COMPANIES to the building for them. And those companies do make a profit off the job. Now since that is government money that pays that contract and governments do not "earn" money (they confiscate it), whose money do you think is really paying for the profit earned by the contractor? You are. Everyone who pays taxes is.

 

I have never understood why some people think business is bad and government is good. The largest, most powerful company in the world can not take a thing from you that you do not freely give it. They can not take your home, they can not confiscate your money, they can not throw you in prison, they can not sieze your property, and if you do business with them and they deal with you wrongly or in bad faith or breach a contract you can take them to court. The smallest governments right here in the US can seize your home, seize all of your assets and property, and can easily throw you in prison and even if all this is done wrongfully you can not seek redress in the court. You can try but you chances of success are very small, and even if you do succed how many years of your life were lost fighting them? Governments are immune from punitive action and damages in court here in the US, the very best you can hope for is to get back what you had...years and tens of thousands of dollars later.

 

Business cares about profit because their cash reserves are finite. If the business is not run well and runs out of money it will cease to exist. If a government is not run well, and it runs out of money it will simply raise taxes and continue running. If it continues to be willfully wasteful (why you think this is a good thing I have no idea) it will and can simply continue raising taxes until it is either overthrown, voted out, ot the taxpayers simply go elsewhere. For a real world example of this check out The First Failed State thread right here on this very forum.

 

So... after looking at these comparisons between government and business, who should you really be afraid of? And check out my sig while you're at it.

[Walsingham]

GD, what you're saying isn't upheld by facts. The British government used to build all sorts of stuff - bridges, buildings, harbours - using their own personnel. It's just a question of how they choose to define their capabilities. Of course they don't much any more, and the consequence is these godawful public-private things which are badly made.

 

Also, corporations routinely abuse their political clout to have governments act on their behalf. And that's not to mention the hiring of private mercenaries. Nor aggressive punitive lawsuits.

 

I'm no commie, but to assert that corporations are ALWAYS good and govts ALWAYS evil is just bonkers.

[Guard Dog]

GD, what you're saying isn't upheld by facts. The British government used to build all sorts of stuff - bridges, buildings, harbours - using their own personnel. It's just a question of how they choose to define their capabilities. Of course they don't much any more, and the consequence is these godawful public-private things which are badly made.

 

Also, corporations routinely abuse their political clout to have governments act on their behalf. And that's not to mention the hiring of private mercenaries. Nor aggressive punitive lawsuits.

 

I'm no commie, but to assert that corporations are ALWAYS good and govts ALWAYS evil is just bonkers.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying business is always good or government is always bad. Both are both good and bad and both have a necassary role to play. Iam just pointiong out that many posters around here seem to be under the impression that business is always bad and vice versa. In an enviorment totally absent government, business will run amok. In an enviorment totally absent business, well, the USSR was such a joyful place to live wan't it? (New flash LoF, that whole "Iron Curtain" thing was meant to keep people in, not out).

 

But in general terms what I seaid was dead on correct. And as for the first point, I do not know how the government works in the UK but in the US contruction workers, engineers, etc are not kept on any govenment staff. All public contruction is privately contracted.

 

*Pardon my typing and spelling please, I'm using a blackberry today and the se buttons atr too small for my fingers!

Edited December 3, 2009 by Guard Dog

[Slowtrain]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/0...tunnel-14-years

 

Indian chap digs tunnel using handtools for 14 years. Helps himself, and other villagers. Amazing what can be done with a lot of faith, hardwork, and total disdain for bureaucracy.

 

 

If by inspiring you mean stupid, then OK.

 

Hmmm. You may have a point. But then I'm usually doing stupiod things, so being inspired by stupid makes sense.

 

 

Hey, it's definitely an A for effort. But probably an F for intelligence.

[Slowtrain]

[i have never understood why some people think business is bad and government is good.

 

 

Well, mostly because in an ideal state a business exists exist for no other reason than to make as much money as possible regardless of who or what is damaged in the process while a government exists to protect its people.

 

Granted those are ideal states and in the real world its mostly a matter of degrees rather than extremes. But it wasn't too long ago thast unregulated business had 8 year old children working in coal mines for pennies a day. So.

 

And yes, govenments are models of inefficiency and waste but so are large businesses as well. Ineffiency and waste seems to generally scale mostly with size rather than type. SO I don't think there is much to recommend one over the other in that sense.

[Enoch]

@GD: Not to defend Harlie's (equally extreme, on the other side) point of view, but you're overstating. The powers of government are unquestionably greater than those of a private company, but in a modern representative democracy the restraints on the use of those powers are greater, too. Seizures, arrests, etc., require due process. Eminent domain requires just compensation. And public accountability through watchdog organizations, the free press, and the electoral process also provides a strong check on governmental overreaching. (Note: these are U.S. examples, but similar provisions are in place in most other western democracies.) There are statutory, common law, and contractual restraints on what businesses may do in their interactions with ordinary people, but they often aren't as rigorous, and enforcement of them usually requires some (often prohibitively expensive) litigation. Both businesses and governments sometimes give the citizenry reason to fear their power-- which fear seems greater and more reasonable is going to depend on your particular situation.

 

 

(Sidenote: After working in gov't for a number of years, it always boggles my mind a bit to think that things like nepotism and bribery are legal in the private sector.)

 

Edit: Also, I is slow-- I see that your tone moderated somewhat in your 9:22 (EST) post.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Enoch

[Guard Dog]

How ironic is it that I'm sitting in the lobby of the federal courthouse in Nashville and in about 30 min I'm going to go meet with a federal bueracrat who is, and I'll be kind, very impressed with his station in life and seems to enjoy making a royal pain of himself for no other reason than that he can.

 

@Slowtrain, I do not believe for a second that any government sees the protection of the people as the reason for it's existence. The reason govenrment does anything it does os to pereptuate it's own power. If it can protect the people while doing that fine and good and I do believe most government employees and politicians will try to help the citizenry when it can provided it does not damage their power. But those same politicians will ruthlessly harm that same people if they can get away with it and it furthers the expansion of their power and influence.

 

I fail to see how a business wanting to make oney is a bad thing? Apple wanted to make more money so they invented the ipod for people to buy. The wanted to sell more ipods and make more money so they made better ipods and sold more of them. If they did not care about making a profit there would be no ipods. If you do not want to contribute to Apple's profits then you don't have to buy an ipod. You can buy a Zune, or Sansa, or not buy one at all.

 

Now on the other hand lets look at the new Obamanation Health Care bill the House just passed. If FORCES all citizens to BUY health insurance. From a private company if they wish, from the government if not. If you do not buy their insurance it is a crime and they will throw you in prison.

 

On one hand Apple says "This thing is cool and you might enjoy it. Buy it if you wish". On the other Uncle Sam says "You MUST buy this, if not we'll take all of you money and imprison you".

 

This is admittedly a simplified example but you see what I'm getting at here?

[theslug]

Isn't there a dude named Adam Smith who was like pretty fraekin smart and he said something like when people go out and try and make a profit they end up usually with a net gain for society becuase that man is creating jobs and distributable wealth and all sorts of good stuff. Me and my friend had a related argument and his response was to essentially look me in the eyes and go "come on dude corporations..." and that's what I'm sort of getting from Harlequin. But this isn't the industrial revolution where business could simply operate without regard to safety or government regulation. Business is good, profit is good, if you don't believe it go live in Uganda or stop complaining about stuff you don't know anything about and I'll stop pretending like I do.

[Lare Kikkeli]

Ah yes, the trickle down theory. Classic.

[Slowtrain]

@Slowtrain, I do not believe for a second that any government sees the protection of the people as the reason for it's existence.

 

Ultimately, I agree. WHich is why I referred to an ideal state vs a real world state. However, people's expectations are that the government will attempt to protect them and will hold the government accountable for that. And while a lot of governmental accountability is far beyond the reach of the average citizen, there is still more accountablity than large scale business, which essentially operates with impunity outside of governmental regulation.

 

 

 

I fail to see how a business wanting to make oney is a bad thing?.

 

I don't think I said it was "bad". I merely pointed out that businesses have as their singular goal to make money. It is illogical to expect them to be concerned about anything not directly related to making money unless someone (ie the government) is tapping them on the shoulder occasionally and saying, hey, you can't do that, it may be good for you but its bad for everyone else.

 

edit: I just looked back at my original response and I did kind of say, indirectly, that business was bad. SO let me clarify that a bit by saying I don't think that businesses making money is bad (at all). I do think that there is a need for strong government regulation of how businessess operate, with the largest businessess that have potentially the greatest effects on the world needing the most regulation.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Slowtrain

[Gorgon]

Business isn't bad or good, it just is.

[Gorgon]

If you believe it to be the solution to all society's ails you are kidding yourself though. When people talk of the great invisible benevolent hand of 'the market', I detect a tendency to regard the theories with a peculiar type of religious zeal.

 

One *believes* wholeheartedly in the positive effects and regards any shortcomings as a result of someone (inevitably government) having violated the sanctity of the free movement of capital.

 

Did someone mention Ayn Rand ?

Edited December 3, 2009 by Gorgon

[Kaftan Barlast]

Isn't there a dude named Adam Smith who was like pretty fraekin smart and he said something like when people go out and try and make a profit they end up usually with a net gain for society becuase that man is creating jobs and distributable wealth and all sorts of good stuff. Me and my friend had a related argument and his response was to essentially look me in the eyes and go "come on dude corporations..." and that's what I'm sort of getting from Harlequin. But this isn't the industrial revolution where business could simply operate without regard to safety or government regulation. Business is good, profit is good, if you don't believe it go live in Uganda or stop complaining about stuff you don't know anything about and I'll stop pretending like I do.

 

 

I think the problem is that people doesnt differentiate between bussiness and big bussiness in their argumentation. Adam Smith was all for the former and against the latter.

[vault_overseer]

Ahhh, the crazy ass hindus

Edited December 3, 2009 by vault_overseer

[Enoch]

Really, would anybody want to use a tunnel that one oddly obsessed dude carved all by himself? I doubt that the guy has the engineering or geological expertise necessary to assess and ensure its structural soundness. (Indeed, the difficulties in making the passageway safe might well be the reason that the local government refused to take on the project.)

[Slowtrain]

He shoudl hace called Mythbusters. They would have flown around the world to see if they could dig the tunnel with Coke and Mentos or something.