Vampire: The Masquerade

[alanschu]

Vampires have existed in one form or another in pretty much every culture in most every time period in written human history. Starting long before xiananity in fact. Traditionally they, generally (depending on culture can vary widely but trying to use the most commen elements for the sake of clarity, berevity) were seen as solitary, grostque looking spirits that visited you in your sleep/dreams. They drained your of energy, life. (what today we call psychic vampires) those 'attacked' could rarely resist and were at the vampires mercy (aka glamed). Then over time/cultures the body fluid/blood element seeped into the lore. And then some cultures started seeing the vampires as physical entites and no longer spirit form. Still solitary, ugly and visted at night however when the person slept. Then in europe and eventually the american colony the church influenced the lore to the effect they were rising from the dead from graves. Either those working with the xian devil, possessed in life or body after death, and other such related explanations. Then the victorian era hit and writers took the solitary, ugly, monster vampires and 'cleaned' them up int heir stories. Made them sexual, beautiful preditors. Some of the weakness we know about were taken from the ancient lore (eg silver/garlic) others just made up/exagerated during this time period (running water, sun light). Same with their strenghts, traditions (coming out at night, draining, galem powers, shape shifing). Then by the late 20th century they evolved further into vampires being part of clans, groups, vampire hiearchy, etc. Credit to WW for really putting that concept in the general lore of vampires during the early 90s. They also helped foster the idea of werewolves vs vampires also but did not orignate it however.

 

I was under the impression that vampires as sexy didn't really exist until the Victorian era.

 

If the seduction skill was just symbolizing Glam, wouldn't that mean that it, intimidate, and persuasion should have just been consolidated into one?

[TheHarlequin]

Vampires have existed in one form or another in pretty much every culture in most every time period in written human history. Starting long before xiananity in fact. Traditionally they, generally (depending on culture can vary widely but trying to use the most commen elements for the sake of clarity, berevity) were seen as solitary, grostque looking spirits that visited you in your sleep/dreams. They drained your of energy, life. (what today we call psychic vampires) those 'attacked' could rarely resist and were at the vampires mercy (aka glamed). Then over time/cultures the body fluid/blood element seeped into the lore. And then some cultures started seeing the vampires as physical entites and no longer spirit form. Still solitary, ugly and visted at night however when the person slept. Then in europe and eventually the american colony the church influenced the lore to the effect they were rising from the dead from graves. Either those working with the xian devil, possessed in life or body after death, and other such related explanations. Then the victorian era hit and writers took the solitary, ugly, monster vampires and 'cleaned' them up int heir stories. Made them sexual, beautiful preditors. Some of the weakness we know about were taken from the ancient lore (eg silver/garlic) others just made up/exagerated during this time period (running water, sun light). Same with their strenghts, traditions (coming out at night, draining, galem powers, shape shifing). Then by the late 20th century they evolved further into vampires being part of clans, groups, vampire hiearchy, etc. Credit to WW for really putting that concept in the general lore of vampires during the early 90s. They also helped foster the idea of werewolves vs vampires also but did not orignate it however.

 

I was under the impression that vampires as sexy didn't really exist until the Victorian era.

 

If the seduction skill was just symbolizing Glam, wouldn't that mean that it, intimidate, and persuasion should have just been consolidated into one?

 

Exactly.. as I said "Then the victorian era hit and writers took the solitary, ugly, monster vampires and 'cleaned' them up in their stories. Made them sexual, beautiful preditors."

 

I think since the historical ability to glam (for lack of a better term off the top of my head) is there and has been there in lore as far back as their have been vampires, seeing the persuade skill as such isn't a hard sell IMO. I think a mortal persuading and a vampire is almost apples and oranges. If you look at the torie ability to glam ingame its much more a hypnotize, mind control blunt ability unlike the subtle persuasion skill as the persuade dialog options come across. At least IMO. The persuasion is more covert, subtle 'suggestions' where as the clan disp is more direct, blunt and pretty subtle-less, at least how I saw it.

[alanschu]

I can understand that, but why the distinction between the skills in V:tM. If it was glamming, wouldn't it be a single skill?

 

"Torie" ability? Are you referring to the Ventrue's ability to use its domination magic in game?

 

 

(note, my google isn't helping me look up glam )

[TheHarlequin]

I can understand that, but why the distinction between the skills in V:tM. If it was glamming, wouldn't it be a single skill?

 

"Torie" ability? Are you referring to the Ventrue's ability to use its domination magic in game?

 

 

(note, my google isn't helping me look up glam )

 

Was it ventrue who had dominate not torie? I suppose thats correct. As I said eariler I am pretty rusty on my v:tm knowledge. Either case yes I was reffering to the dominate clan ability vs persuade skill. I have no idea what the devs were thinking but if I was to make a guess as I said above I think they saw dominate as a very blunt way to command someone and persuade as a more subtle, tectful way to worm your way into a mortals mind. While the destination may be the same the journey, long term effects isn't. ie if I 'persuaded' the club girls I could keep going back to them and hook up without the need to use the charms anymore. Dominate once you did they more of less forget about you and had to dom them again.

 

Seems they are 2 very different ways to get to the same point is what I am trying to get at.

[alanschu]

I don't know what the reasoning is behind a lot of the decisions in VTM. It would seem I always equated the Glam to Dominate.

[Oner]

BL is a CRPG. It has limitations. And design decisions. Like why make a 30 min seduction minigame out of an NPC that's supposed to be a (blood)soda machine?

Someone is overthinking it IMO.

[Calax]

I'm not sure they're talking about JUST bloodlines here. In the 90's vampires were basically Masq permutations. I think that the first real "aristocratic" vampire came in in about 1819 but didn't become popular until Dracula (I know in the movie, but I've heard that in the book he's actually less of a gentleman than he's potrayed as).

 

As to the game mechanics I'd say that they used Dominate for more overt things and for people who didn't want to spend their entire time getting persuade up to deal with all sorts of things.

[Raithe]

As to the game mechanics I'd say that they used Dominate for more overt things and for people who didn't want to spend their entire time getting persuade up to deal with all sorts of things.

 

Persuade is more the conversational skill of the character, but the actual Disciplines of "Dominate" and "Presence" are to represent the vampire powers. Dominate is the hypno-eye-gaze control, it can be more of a hammer strike, but it's not always obvious that its being done. "Presence" was the assortment of powers that just give the Vampire more of an aura, like some people have an almost physical sense of charisma oozing out.

 

Dominate was more outright control, Presence could just make the vamp more friendly/terrifying depending on their mood, and Persuade is just natural talent/skill for conversation and approaching people.

 

At least, that's how it was in the pen and paper, and was the basis for the two crpgs.

[Niten_Ryu]

Speaking of vampires - Like Conan O'Brien say, there's huge vampire boom going on right now. True Blood, Vampire Diaries and Twilight movies. Bloodlines happend few years too early

[Musopticon?]

I'm not sure they're talking about JUST bloodlines here. In the 90's vampires were basically Masq permutations. I think that the first real "aristocratic" vampire came in in about 1819 but didn't become popular until Dracula (I know in the movie, but I've heard that in the book he's actually less of a gentleman than he's potrayed as)

Well, yes and no. Dracule is an aristocrat, but an earlier and more in tune with the sexual predator(god, that's such a marked word) version of the so-called victorian vampire, was Le Fanu's Carmilla. It's a good story, though the dramatic vehicle isn't as interesting as Stoker's made-up correspondence idea. Well, at least it has lesbians, so there's that.

[Oner]

Bloodlines happend few years too early

Sad truth. Imagine the horror of those Twilight fangirls when they meet Andrei..

[Musopticon?]

I was much more horrified by that Anarch girl, god I wished I could just bash her face in. It's like Troika took all the anarcholiberal stereotypes they could find and then gave the abomination a nice rack.

 

Hey, wait...

[Oner]

a nice rack.

=sex appael=Twilight

Andrei=grotesque=vomiting Twilight fangirls

^^

 

BTW I hate Skelter or whatever much more. You can make peace with Damsel then she at least will be polite and nice in her hyperactive anarch vampire way.

Skelter stays a 50 cent wannabe forever.

[HoonDing]

I hate that former movie star vampire in Hollywood. He should have been voiced by Raphael Sbarge.

[Oner]

What's not to like in him, boss?

[HoonDing]

What's not to like in him, boss?

No, not Gary. The dude in the night club.

[Oner]

Oh, Ash. Maybe he is a mirror to your own self.

[213374U]

What's not to like in him, boss?

No, not Gary. The dude in the night club.

Heh. And yet, he is one of the few characters in the game that reflects the fact that vampirism is, you know, a curse. That Nosferatu girl being the other, but only incidentally. Everyone else is partying around in their new soulless, blood-drinking, god-forsaken state just fine.

 

I mean, who wouldn't want to be a monster?

[Musopticon?]

I'm with Numbersman here, besides Ash, I think the Thinbloods and perhaps your personal Ghoul are the only ones who show any kind of struggle with their affliction. I think this has two kinds of influence on the player. First, vampirism is treated in a relatively good light. It's something you catch and takes a while(like, one tutorial) to adapt to, but in the end it's like a designer disease which side effect is supah powers and being "in the scene" without needing a troubled childhood. Secondly, they just flat out dismiss a ton of mythology and what draws people to vampire stories. Sure enough, Troika was obviously aware of the genre's roots, starting with the intro scene, but they lost so much potential depth when they opted to mostly oust themes such as addiction, sexual awakening and torment from the mix.

 

That said, the game already dusts off it's roots by dismissing the day, you know, when humanity acts for the most part, from it's dramatic equation. There could have been so many challenges and themes they might have explored with the old vampire weakness to daylight. Such as your haven being raided during the day and for instance learning to live with the concept of never being able to live in sunlight again. I mean, we are not nocturnal creatures, nevermind how many people try to subvert that fact("New York never sleeps", etc). Becoming nocturnal, giving up all the rituals that circadian rythm includes, it's a massive thing for a person, a huge thing for physiology as well.

[Oner]

The NPCs too had only social problems with their curse, as far as I remember.

-Buhuhu, I can't act now!

-Buhuhu, I can't be a model now! (Okay, this one is a valid point.)

-Buhuhu, the big vampires hate us!

-Buhuhu, hunters chase me!

 

For the PC there was that small encounter with a female friend in Hollywood, so at least Troika didn't ignore the issue completely.

[TheHarlequin]

I don't know what the reasoning is behind a lot of the decisions in VTM. It would seem I always equated the Glam to Dominate.

 

I think its fair to say, BOTH could be considered a 'glam' like effect. I suppose I am getting at I saw persuade as a vampire specific innate trait for all vamps, clan irrelivant. The more powerful one being dominate. But all vamps have the ability to memorize/charm someone with the persuade skill. Again it would fit with historical vampire lore if that was the case.

[TheHarlequin]

I'm not sure they're talking about JUST bloodlines here. In the 90's vampires were basically Masq permutations. I think that the first real "aristocratic" vampire came in in about 1819 but didn't become popular until Dracula (I know in the movie, but I've heard that in the book he's actually less of a gentleman than he's potrayed as).

 

As to the game mechanics I'd say that they used Dominate for more overt things and for people who didn't want to spend their entire time getting persuade up to deal with all sorts of things.

 

Agreed on all points.

 

As I said we have the victorian writers to thank for our current view and vampire mythos. As they totally changed the perception of the legends. The beautiful, tortured soul, tactful vampire in a vampire clan has a lot more romance and story possibilities then the traditonal vampire a unfeeling, grotesque spirit who feeds in ones dreams/sleeping only.

[TheHarlequin]

What's not to like in him, boss?

No, not Gary. The dude in the night club.

Heh. And yet, he is one of the few characters in the game that reflects the fact that vampirism is, you know, a curse. That Nosferatu girl being the other, but only incidentally. Everyone else is partying around in their new soulless, blood-drinking, god-forsaken state just fine.

 

I mean, who wouldn't want to be a monster?

 

For the first centruy or two wouldn't you?

 

I'd think it would take a couple centuries for the 'fun' to wear off and realize under all the power and bells its a curse as you loose more then you gain as a whole. Some may come to that sooner then others but after the shock of getting turned and the immediate loss of family and friends dies down wouldn't you try to make the best of it and enjoy your new unlife? Until you realize many years later your a static being, going nowhere while the world passes you by. After a few centuries you've prob done all you wanted to in life what do you got to look forward too by then? read everything you wanted, studied all the topics you have interest in, seen the world, prob $ success after all that time as well... you need to start making artifical goals to make life worthwhile and thats when the tortured soul I think comes to the surface. Later in the vampire life not at the start.

[213374U]

The NPCs too had only social problems with their curse, as far as I remember.

-Buhuhu, I can't act now!

-Buhuhu, I can't be a model now! (Okay, this one is a valid point.)

-Buhuhu, the big vampires hate us!

-Buhuhu, hunters chase me!

 

For the PC there was that small encounter with a female friend in Hollywood, so at least Troika didn't ignore the issue completely.

Uh, right. The thinbloods, how forgettable. Actually, I think they were the most credible vamps in the game. They don't understand anything, are easy to empathize with - they are devastated that their former lives are destroyed, and are scared ****less by their new condition. And it also helps that they aren't certifiably bat**** like, um, 99% of the regular vampires (and many humans - remember that Dr. Fu-Manchu dude?)

 

I would have liked to see these themes developed a bit more, not just the negative aspects of vampirism, but the thinbloods particularly. With Gehenna so close, thinbloods become one of the central issues of the setting. Oh well.

Edited November 27, 2009 by 213374U

[Jaesun]

Is this a hint that Bio's 3rd unannounced IP they are working on.... is a Vampire type setting? If so, that would be FRACKING AWESOME.

 

Just saying...