Genuine courage

[Hurlshort]

I'm not sure how being biased against Nazi soldiers is really an issue today. He isn't claiming to hate a race of people or anything like that.

It's pretty cool how deeply you have mastered doublethink. So, because it's kotorchum doing it, German soldiers = NAZI. Everyone else must be very careful with the distinctions between Waffen-SS, Wehrmacht, Gestapo, SD, party officials, etc.

 

Ok, replace nazi soldier with German soldier during WW2. It does not change the fact that his bias against them is not an issue today. You are really reaching here.

 

Are you under the impression that you are without bias?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Atrocities during the Invasion of Poland

See also: Częstochowa massacre

Wehrmacht units killed thousands of Polish civilians during the 1939 September campaign through executions and terror bombing of cities. After the end of hostilities, during the Wehrmacht's administration of Poland, which went on until October 25, 1939, 531 towns and villages were burned, and the Wehrmacht carried out 714 mass executions, alongside mass incidents of plunder, banditry and murder. Altogether, it is estimated that 16,376 Polish fell victim to those atrocities. Approximately 60% of these crimes were committed by the Wehrmacht.[3] Wehrmacht soldiers frequently engaged in massacres of Jews on their own rather than just assist in rounding up Jews for the SS[4]. In the summer of 1940, Reinhard Heydrich, the chief of the Reich Main Security Office (including the Gestapo) noted that "compared to the crimes, robberies and excesses committed by the army (Wehrmacht), the SS and the police don't look all that bad"[5]

 

The fundamental statements made in the exhibition about the Wehrmacht and the war of annihilation in 'the east' are correct. It is indisputable that, in the Soviet Union, the Wehrmacht not only 'entangled' itself in genocide perpetrated against the Jewish population, in crimes perpetrated against Soviet POWs, and in the fight against the civilian population, but in fact participated in these crimes, playing at times a supporting, at times a leading role. These were not isolated cases of 'abuse' or 'excesses'; they were activities based on decisions reached by top level military leaders or troop leaders on or behind the front lines.[14]

 

Another sample are German soldiers' letters that were sent home and copied during the war by special Polish Home Army cell that infiltrated the German postal system.[17] Those letters have been analyzed by historians and the picture they paint is similar to views expressed by Judith Levin and Daniel Uziel. Many soldiers wrote openly about extermination of Jews and were proud of it. Support for "untermensch" and "master race" concepts were also part of the attitude expressed by German soldiers[17]. Presented examples reflecting this trend include samples such as :"I'm one of those who are decreasing number of partisans. I put them against the wall and everyone gets a bullet in his head, very merry and interesting job", "My point of view:this nation deserves only the knaut, only by it they can be educated; a part of them already experienced that;others still try to resist. Yesterday I had possibility to see 40 partisants, something like that I had never encountered before. I became convinced that we are the masters, others are untermenschen"[17].

 

Much more evidence of such trends and thoughts among Wehrmacht soldiers exists and is subject to research by historians[16].

 

In conclusion the historians responsible for the exhibition assume that the antisemitic climate and propaganda in Nazi Germany had an immense impact on the entire population and emphasize the importance of the indoctrination.[16]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht

[Deadly_Nightshade]

You still don't get it do you?

[213374U]

Ok, replace nazi soldier with German soldier during WW2. It does not change the fact that his bias against them is not an issue today. You are really reaching here.

 

Are you under the impression that you are without bias?

Being biased against German soldiers isn't an issue today? Well, perhaps where you live it isn't. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be, at any rate.

 

And no, I'm not without bias myself. I'll thank you to point out when my biases are clearly distorting my judgement, because it's not something that can't be corrected, or to be proud of.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht

Yeah, while you're at WP, look up either/or fallacy. And do read the first paragraph of the very article you're linking to, where it says that it was agreed after the war that the Wehrmacht wasn't a criminal organisation per se.

[alanschu]

I already quoted it earlier:

 

War crimes of the Wehrmacht were those carried out by German armed forces during World War II. While the principal perpetrators of the Holocaust amongst German armed forces were the Nazi German political armies (the SS-Totenkopfverb

[Wrath of Dagon]

What's eye opening is that you think Nuremberg was a witch hunt. And I don't see what False dichotomy has to do with anything.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

And I don't see what False dichotomy has to do with anything.

 

Well, again, you wouldn't.

[Walsingham]

What's eye opening is that you think Nuremberg was a witch hunt. And I don't see what False dichotomy has to do with anything.

 

Nuremberg may have not been exactly a witch hunt but they often took some peculiarly political views on who to nail and who to spare.

 

As for ad hominem arguments I think they are justified. If we were discussing the nature of a true sportsman, and someone was arguing from the POV of a fat bastard who never even walked to the pie shop then his views obviously have a certain hollow ring to them. One might just as well write about sex before you've even kissed anyone.

[alanschu]

What's eye opening is that you think Nuremberg was a witch hunt. And I don't see what False dichotomy has to do with anything.

 

 

When they go after people like Doenitz that were trying to win the war for their country in the same capacity that Chester Nimitz wanted to win the Pacific War for his country, it's clear they're looking on being rather aggressive on punishing people for war crimes. Fortunately not all involved were fanatical about it, and conceded that things such as unrestricted submarine warfare were also employed by the Allied nations. Doenitz said it best when he pointed at the absurdity of him being in league with Hitler, simply because he was an Admiral of the Kriegsmarine that consulted with his head of state.

 

Witch hunt is an aggressive term, but given what people were finding with the death camps, there was serious pressure to see heads roll as a result.

 

 

The False Dichotomy is that you're showing scenes where members of the Wehrmacht did commit atrocities, as if it somehow discredits what Hurlshot said. It doesn't, as Hurlshot never said that the Wehrmacht was not responsible for commit war crimes. You're the only person here that thinks that anybody was trying to absolve the Wehrmacht members of their responsibility for committing atrocities.

Edited November 24, 2009 by alanschu

[Hurlshort]

This thread has totally made me famous

[Wrath of Dagon]

The False Dichotomy is that you're showing scenes where members of the Wehrmacht did commit atrocities, as if it somehow discredits what Hurlshot said. It doesn't, as Hurlshot never said that the Wehrmacht was not responsible for commit war crimes. You're the only person here that thinks that anybody was trying to absolve the Wehrmacht members of their responsibility for committing atrocities.

 

The only reason why the bulk of the Wermacht is seen as villains is a combination of ignorance and the fact that they lost the war. We could link Soviet War crimes too while we're at it.

 

It is indisputable that, in the Soviet Union, the Wehrmacht not only 'entangled' itself in genocide perpetrated against the Jewish population, in crimes perpetrated against Soviet POWs, and in the fight against the civilian population, but in fact participated in these crimes, playing at times a supporting, at times a leading role. These were not isolated cases of 'abuse' or 'excesses'; they were activities based on decisions reached by top level military leaders or troop leaders on or behind the front lines.[14]

 

May be ignorance is not the only reason?

[213374U]

[alanschu]

May be ignorance is not the only reason?

 

I'm sorry, who here said that the Wehrmacht didn't commit any atrocities? How many times does this need to be repeated until you realize that citing examples of the Wehrmacht performing an atrocities accomplishes nothing?

 

All you did with your post, was reaffirm that you are using False Dichotomy. That you're too stupid to realize it is not my fault.

 

 

Of other interest:

Even American fighter Ace Chuck Yeager wrote in his autobiography that American soldiers followed out orders that could be considered war crimes because they didn't want to face a guaranteed court martial for not following orders. He also stated that he was concerned his unit would be tried for war crimes should the Allies not win the war.

 

And since you apparently are unaware of Nuremberg's criticisms (odd, wasn't it you telling other people they didn't know much about WW2?), here's some of the thoughts people had for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials#Criticism

 

Funny how tu quoque wasn't a valid defense. Must be nice to be on the winning side. There's a reason why the Nuremberg trials are famous, whereas the Japanese trials are not. And it's not because of the Wehrmacht.

Edited November 25, 2009 by alanschu

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Maybe this link will help you Dagon.

[Tigranes]

Let's cool down a bit... sometimes, when you're getting nowhere with the other side, it makes you silly to keep arguing... even when you're right.

 

I confess to a lamentable lack of in-depth knowledge on WW2; I was turned off by the whole subject in high school when, partly due to the low level of education required, there was a worrying tendency to blanket Hitler, Nazis and all of Germany as 'evil for evil's sake'.

 

One suspects it would be quite enlightening to unearth a reasonably unbiased look at the relationship between Hitler and the Third Reich hierarchy in the war years, and the power-play that went on there.