Another video card thread :P

[LadyCrimson]

...trying to decide if single card is enough for me or whether I want to try for "more gaming power" with two or even three.

 

1 - I haven't kept up with video card stuff in years & all the diff. model letters. What's the current "good" nvidia card model(s) in the $250ish range? I don't care about overclocking, btw...ie, I don't do it.

 

2 - Will any motherboard that claims 3-Way SLI actually work for the nvidia 3-way SLI, these days?

 

3 - If you actually are l33t enough to use 3 linked video cards, I assume you'd need a massive power supply to go along with it? Something like 1000+ watts be enough? Or if you went w/just 2 cards, 750w enough?

 

4 - Cooling - are lots of fans adequate or would you need something fancier so it doesn't all burn up...

Edited October 15, 2009 by LadyCrimson

[mkreku]

I will let someone else handle the Nvidia cards as I'm blinded by the 5870 right now (as a true fanboi), but I will say this: 1000W is for overclockers and enthusiasts. 750W is enough even for a triple SLI setup. Unless you go for three of the very worst Nvidia has to offer, but that would be insanely expensive.

[Matthew Rorie]

...trying to decide if single card is enough for me or whether I want to try for "more gaming power" with two or even three.

 

1 - I haven't kept up with video card stuff in years & all the diff. model letters. What's the current "good" nvidia card model(s) in the $250ish range? I don't care about overclocking, btw...ie, I don't do it.

 

2 - Will any motherboard that claims 3-Way SLI actually work for the nvidia 3-way SLI, these days?

 

3 - If you actually are l33t enough to use 3 linked video cards, I assume you'd need a massive power supply to go along with it? Something like 1000+ watts be enough? Or if you went w/just 2 cards, 750w enough?

 

4 - Cooling - are lots of fans adequate or would you need something fancier so it doesn't all burn up...

 

I don't know the answers to all of these questions, but at the moment you really don't need 3 cards. A single 5870 can run three monitors so long as one of them is displayport. One of the editors over at HardOCP actually got a single 5870 to run across three monitors and was gaming at 3600x1920 resolution without too much of a problem.

 

I know you specified nvidia, but ATI just released their top-of-the-line cards last month, and thus far nvidia's new top-of-the-line stuff is probably not going to be out until next year, possibly a few months into next year. Nvidia has not reduced their prices to match the new performance available in the ATI cards, so the price-performance ratio is in ATI's favor at the moment according to most sources. I think the closest approximation at that price point is the GTX 275 to the ATI HD5850. The 5850 seems to beat the GTX by around 10 FPS in most games.

 

At any rate, the highest-end cards from ATI and Nvidia usually wind up with two graphics chips on the same card, so they're essentially SLI cards in one big package. That might be what you want to look for. Plus, these cards let you get around the age-old limitation of SLI, which is that you can only use it on one monitor.

[LadyCrimson]

Um...ok...so this card and the upcoming Nvidia one are making the separate-card SLI obsolete, so to speak? I'd certainly prefer to buy one $400 card than 3 $200+ cards...any idea if you go with the 5870, then do you not need a 3-way SLI motherboard? All so confusing...

 

I've always preferred Nvidia cards..never had good luck with ATI (or hubby's ATI's) so I'm fairly dubious. I know rationally they make fine cards, but my luck seems to be terrible w/them. However...having to wait another 4 months or something, yet again, is not what I want, either. My go with that, then.

[Matthew Rorie]

Both Nvidia and ATI have had them for a year or so, I think. The GTX 295 is one such card, as is the ATI HD 4870x2. ATI generally puts an "X2" on dual-processor cards, while Nvidia just ups the numbering a bit. These basically act as a one-card SLI setup (although in practice it winds up being slightly slower since they usually have to underclock the processors a bit to make up for the heat generation). There should be an HD 5870 x2 coming out at some point by the end of the year that should be a beast of a card. (The X2 cards typically do draw more power and generate more heat, though.)

 

Note that I'm not endorsing ATI here; I don't have one of their news cards, and I generally do prefer nvidia for their drivers. But at the moment the price/performance crown seems to sit on ATI's head.

 

And I wouldn't say that the dual-processor cards are making SLI or Crossfire obsolete; they just make it less necessary. You can actually run the dual processor cards in SLI, if I recall correctly, but we're at the point where a single 5870 should run pretty much anything at a reasonable resolution and be fine at it. And it doesn't look like there are a lot of games coming out that are going to significantly push the envelope to the point where you need to spend $2000 on a new computer to run them.

[LadyCrimson]

Ok, I understood most of that I think...and they don't use Crossfire either, good to know I guess...but you're saying the recently released 5870 is not an X2 double processor version?

 

None of the shopping ads I see for it have X2 in the model number. Should I just get one of those older models you mentioned to begin with then, and wait on the newer stuff?

[LadyCrimson]

Meh...I think advertisers just aren't putting the X2 on anything for some reason...never mind on that one.

 

The GTX 295 is still $400, while the 4870 is often $200. I can see why people buy the ATI's...

[Spider]

It works like this. Each manufacturer releases single cards first. Then when the other manufacturer releases something that will steal the performance crown, they bundle two of their top cards together and all of a sudden they have the top performer again, until the opposition gets a similar model out.

 

Typically one of the non-dual high performance cards will get you very far. Actually, you can usually manage pretty well with the second tier single card as well, which is typically the most effective card in terms of cost vs performance.

 

ATI has just released their newest set of cards, the 500-series. The best in that series is the 5870 (so far) and it's a beast of a card. It will pretty much handle anything you throw at it gaming-wise. But it's not exactly cheap, coming in at roughly $380. It can be compared to ATI:s previous top model the dual card 4870x2. It beats it in some games and is fairly even to it in some (according to tests I've seen). But it draws a lot less electricity and generates less heat. There is currently no 5870 in dual mode.

 

The second tier here is the 5850, which is an inferior card, but still powerful enough to be on par with or beat any single core card NVidia has out. This is the best bang for your buck you can get at the moment and it will handle pretty much anything (except Crysis at max with high resolution). It will cost you roughly $270.

 

But if you want to go all in for performance currently (and not do any SLI or Crossfire stuff yourself) the NVidia 295GTX is where it's at. This is NVidias current top dual card. It manages to beat the 5870 in pretty much every test, but not by a ahuge margin. And it will cost something around $450-500. Also, with it being a dual card, it will of course draw more power and generate more heat.

 

If you're not afraid to do Crossfire yourself though, two 5870 in Crossfire will crush everything else on the market. But then you need a motherboard than can do that and it's somewhat overkill.

 

But if you want to stay in your budget of $250-ish, then the 5850 is the way to go. It's performance is roughly the same as Nvidias current top single card (the 285GTX), but it costs about $100 less.

 

The thing is, ATI has just released their new monster cards (the 5850 is still hard to get ahold of), so Nvidias cards are feeling a little obsolete, at least at their current prices. You'd expect Nvidia to drop their prices as some sort of answer, but so far that hasn't happened.

[LadyCrimson]

That helps clear up some of the points for me, thanks Spider. Not that it helps me make up my actual mind on ATi vs Nvidia. Price is always a concern, but it's not a strictly limited budget issue, especially if I only need 1 card (vs. 3).

 

Hubby convinced me (again...) to build it ourselves (there's several reasons, not just price) so we're off the buy at least the core components (i7/920, motherboard, RAM). Armed w/my newly gained info, I'll take a gander at the video cards while there...we shall see. Thanks again.

Edited October 15, 2009 by LadyCrimson

[Matthew Rorie]

That helps clear up some of the points for me, thanks Spider. Not that it helps me make up my actual mind on ATi vs Nvidia. Price is always a concern, but it's not a strictly limited budget issue, especially if I only need 1 card (vs. 3).

 

Hubby convinced me (again...) to build it ourselves (there's several reasons, not just price) so we're off the buy at least the core components (i7/920, motherboard, RAM). Armed w/my newly gained info, I'll take a gander at the video cards while there...we shall see. Thanks again.

 

Yeah, coming back into building computers after a couple of years off is always frustrating. All of the product line nomenclature changes and it's really tough to get a feel for everything again. Good luck with the build. FWIW, I went with a Core i7 920 when I got a computer a couple months ago, and it might be the best bet for you still if you don't like to overclock (I personally have never been able to make heads or tails of all that stuff). The i5 lines are the best price-performance, especially if you can overclock them, or so I hear.

[CoM_Solaufein]

You have to watch what type of motherboard you have. An Nvidia specific board isn't going to work with an ATI card. Unless technology has changed since my last full computer build early last year.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

An Nvidia specific board isn't going to work with an ATI card.

 

Not if you're trying to use Crossfire - but otherwise an ATI card should work fine.

[I want teh kotor 3]

I'm a diehard Nvidia fanboy, so I can't help you with ATI. As far as Nvidia goes, however, the 2GB 285 is the fastest thing going, and can go in tri-SLI, although I've only seen one rig setup with that- it was ridiculous. Good luck cooling that. For $200, you can get a factory-overclocked 260 216, which will still eat up pretty much anything you throw at it; the more of them, the better.

 

I'm waiting for the 300 series, myself. They're gonna blow everything else out of the water, apparently.

[LadyCrimson]

Yeah, coming back into building computers after a couple of years off is always frustrating.

I don't even know what half of all these new wires that stick out of everything are for. There were far fewer of them once..at least, it seemed that way.

 

You have to watch what type of motherboard you have. An Nvidia specific board isn't going to work with an ATI card. Unless technology has changed since my last full computer build early last year.

That''s why I asked some of my original questions. I don't know if a Crossfire/3-way SLI Asus board is going to work for nvidia. But maybe it doesn't matter now..

 

Couldn't make up my mind about all the vid card stuff today. Good thing I didn't, since you guys gave me more good thoughts to consider while I was gone. Tossed in an old PCI-E ATI 2600XT to test things while thinking about choices. Yes I know, I build an i7-920 rig and stick a clunky card in it, heh. Don't worry, it's temporary, along w/a couple other things I didn't get yet either.

 

Question...I bought a new 'tower' case, mostly because it came with 6 fans. I'm pleased it's not very noisy & I *think* a 10.5-11 inch vid card will squeeze into it. But 2 of the fans are in the top of the case, so the power supply is located in the bottom, which we've never dealt with before. No big deal until we tried to hook up the "8-pin ATX power connector" wire from power supply to corner of motherboard. The wire (barely) reached, but crosses very tightly over the plugin cards area, touching the actual side of vid card (yellow wire in pic). Seriously, it's a tight stretch, no wiggle room in the wire. Obviously this could become annoying when changing cards or maybe impossible if you had multiple cards.

 

Is the power supply on the bottom a sucky stupid thing...should I get a different case (a pain since we already put everything in)...maybe extensions?

 

Edited October 16, 2009 by LadyCrimson

[mkreku]

Actually, since the 5X-series of Intel chipsets, you don't have to worry about SLI/Crossfire. If you're going for an i7, you just get an X58-based motherboard and you'll have support for both! I don't know how Intel did it, but they managed to license both solutions in the same chip. I love it. This way you buy the motherboard first and worry abut the brand of GPU later.

 

Edit: Oh, I saw the picture now! That's not a good way to draw a cable. You will never be able to fit a huge GPU in there that way. I would buy a cable extension and pull that power cable behind the motherboard. That way it won't show at all, won't clutter up your motherboard and you'll get marginally better airflow through your system (especially if you hide all your cables in a similar fashion).

Edited October 16, 2009 by mkreku

[Humanoid]

GT300 mass availability won't be until Q1 2010 at the earliest, so waiting not viable for a current build.

 

 

Since the proposed system is an i7, it will be running on the Intel X58/P55 so Crossfire is going to be available no matter what. Whether SLI is available officially varies by the specific motherboard model, although many cheaper ones are perfectly capable of SLI despite not being certified for it (and consequently you won't be provided with the required SLI bridge with the board).

 

Bear in mind however some of the cheapest P55 motherboards can only run the second PCI-E slot at 4x, if you're determined to go with a multi-card solution, pick a P55 board that runs the second slot at 8x, or an X58 board that runs both at 16x.

 

That said, between a multi-GPU and a single-GPU solution, I would always advocate choosing the latter (given sufficient performance, and the R58xx most certainly fulfils that criterion); for a number of reasons including but not limited to:

1) Scaling issues in multi-GPU setups - the performance gain you get from adding the second card is not really predictable and can vary dramatically depending on the application it's running

2) Logistics of setup and added complexity when trying to diagnose any problems which may occur

3) Power consumption/heat (and potentially reliability issues as a consequence)

4) Expense, not only in the initial outlay, but in having to retire two cards at the same time eventually.

 

Summary of the broadly available performance mid-range options, from low to highest:

 

GTS250 / R4850 / R5750 - I consider this the baseline for a budget gaming system. Between these, the GTS250 is the oldest tech, being essentially a rebadged 8800GT from circa 2007. The R4850 was the entry-level gaming champion for a good while and after rebates and such can still work out to be the best value in price-performance terms. However the newly released R5750 is probably now a clear winner, by hitting the same general price point (same RRP) and offering all the new-fangled current tech.

 

R5770 / GTX260 / R4870 / GTX275 / R4890 - Performing in roughly that order (but dependent on application), these are the midrange options. Note while the R5770 is relatively costly in context of its absolute performance, it's the only one in this range that supports DX11, and may have greater scope for improvement with new driver releases since it's the newest.

 

R5850 / GTX285 - The ATi card here is marginally faster and a fair bit cheaper, making it generally the better buy, unless one desires the exclusive nVidia features (PhysX, 3D glasses) over DX11 support (and Eyefinity).

 

R5870 / GTX295 - The GTX295 is basically two GTX275s and comes with the same caveats as that card, in addition to the multi-GPU issues aforementioned. It's also quite a bit dearer, although in absolute terms it is generally a bit faster.

[Humanoid]

Is the power supply on the bottom a sucky stupid thing...should I get a different case (a pain since we already put everything in)...maybe extensions?

 

I can't identify the power supply from the photo, but if it's a generic one you might be best served getting a better quality one, which generally would come with longer cables anyway.

[LadyCrimson]

@mkreku -- Yeah, it's an ASUS P6T X58 motherboard.

Using the magical power of Google, I see extensions for that type of cable are 3-6 bucks. 2 feet oughta be enough. The rest of the wires...yup, need to organize those better, but figured I'd wait until I get the rest of the hardware.

 

@Humanoid -- More great vid card analysis, thank you very much. It's sounding like for me, the GTX285 might be the one. It's a little pricey but I do so prefer nvidia...since we built the rig, I'll be running XP on this thing for a bit yet, so having no DX11 won't bother me for another year or so & by then...who knows.

 

The power supply is just the cheap piece of crud that came with the case, lol. Since I wasn't buying the video card yet, I just figured I'd wait to buy the PS, DVD drive, soundcard, new monitor switchbox etc. when I went back to grab a card. The cables on the PS, however, seem to be fairly standard length, from what I saw on the various models in the stores. That one cable is probably about 15-17 inches long...unfortunately w/the configuration it's not long enough.

[Walsingham]

OK, now I'M confused. ATI have the best card right now, and if I get one I can laugh madly, but early next year NVIDIA are bringing out some deviant new type of card which will make all ATIs cry and fall over?

 

If I did get an ATI card, say this 5870 you've been talking about, what are the minimum fine print details I should aim for, like RAM camfers and whoojamaflips?

[Matthew Rorie]

Most people seem to recommend XFX for ATI cards, mostly because of the three-year warranty (provided you register the card within a month of purchase).

 

NVIDIA has no solid dates for their follow-up card, and I don't believe they even have preview units out yet. The time frame for that extends from early next year to next summer, so who knows when it'll be and what the prices are. If you're happy with the card you have, I would wait, but again, those cards might not be coming down the pipe for a while yet.

[LadyCrimson]

As said, if you're fine w/your current card for a while, I'd wait, too. There's always a latest and greatest card.

 

I even decided to buy the cheaper geForce 275, in case 6-12 months from now I'm using Win7 & wanted the brand new ge. Plus I read the 285 wasn't really all that better for the price point. The 275 is more than enough card for me right now, especially considering I'm using XP/can't use all the hardware's power atm, too. Har.

[I want teh kotor 3]

OK, now I'M confused. ATI have the best card right now, and if I get one I can laugh madly, but early next year NVIDIA are bringing out some deviant new type of card which will make all ATIs cry and fall over?

 

If I did get an ATI card, say this 5870 you've been talking about, what are the minimum fine print details I should aim for, like RAM camfers and whoojamaflips?

 

 

Actually, sources are conflicting as to whether the 300 will be out this year or next year. At any rate, it will should those 5870s **** themselves and cry for their mothers.

[Enoch]

Hmmm... I'm just beginning to consider some upgrades to the system I build back in the spring of '07 (I posted the specs here at the time).

 

As I'm starting to look around at what's out there, I noticed that all the fancy new video cards out there now list their interface as "PCI-E 2.0." Judging by the lack of any kind of version number in the description of the PCI-E slots in my mobo's manual, I'm guessing that I'm stuck with whatever I can find that still runs on 1.0. Is this guess accurate?

[LostStraw]

PCIe 2.0 cards should be backwards compatible with older motherboards that only have PCIe 1.x

[Enoch]

PCIe 2.0 cards should be backwards compatible with older motherboards that only have PCIe 1.x

Thanks.