Planescape: Torment Topic

[Purkake]

As great as the Twin Worlds are, the Great Wheel is way awesomer.

[Aram]

I have printed the entire novelization and the parts where the writer included things to tie the dialog together are functional.

The "obviously" alone kills it for me.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Torment is art.

 

 

Yeah, maybe,

 

But what is art? That's the bigger question and discussions of it never go anywhere.

 

Art is what competent people agree has lasting, universal value and having passage of time confirm those opinions. The fact that we are here ten years later still talking about it is at least half the argument. The games industry however lacks competent, credible people to praise artistic value in the occasional outstanding game, and it will remain so for a long time.

 

If it were up to me, and I obviously consider myself competent (presumtious but there you have it) only Torment, Homeworld and Shadow of the Colossus are "art", as in games that rise above just being games. Perhaps Grim Fandango could also be included.

Edited September 13, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Purkake]

Is Pacman, Super Mario Bros or Tetris art?

 

What about Doom or Quake 3?

Edited September 13, 2009 by Purkake

[HoonDing]

Pacman is art because it has a soul. Or rather, several ghosts.

[Mamoulian War]

Is Pacman, Super Mario Bros or Tetris art?

 

What about Doom or Quake 3?

 

 

you missed this line...

 

The fact that we are here ten years later still talking about it is at least half the argument

 

Torment, unlike the games you mentioned has the other half of the argument aswell

[Aram]

There are different degrees of art. It's not just art/notart

Edited September 13, 2009 by Aram

[Mamoulian War]

There are different degrees of art. It's not just art/notart

 

This... You can't compare Picasso with Van Gogh, can you?

[Purkake]

Is Pacman, Super Mario Bros or Tetris art?

 

What about Doom or Quake 3?

 

 

you missed this line...

 

The fact that we are here ten years later still talking about it is at least half the argument

 

Torment, unlike the games you mentioned has the other half of the argument aswell

 

So the games I listed have no artistic value?

[Aram]

There are different degrees of art. It's not just art/notart

 

This... You can't compare Picasso with Van Gogh, can you?

Well I'm thinking more you can't compare Van Gogh with someone's fur fetish doodles on deviantart--both art, but in widely, widely different degrees.

[Purkake]

I never said they were equal.

 

The art discussion always goes straight to hell.

[Aram]

didn't say you did yo

[Slowtrain]

There are different degrees of art. It's not just art/notart

 

This... You can't compare Picasso with Van Gogh, can you?

Well I'm thinking more you can't compare Van Gogh with someone's fur fetish doodles on deviantart--both art, but in widely, widely different degrees.

 

 

SO you are saying that the word "art" always requires additional specificity? So pop art, commercial art, fine art etc and so forth? That the word art is itself so all encompassing that it has no real meaning?

[RPGmasterBoo]

There are different degrees of art. It's not just art/notart

 

true. If its not "art" it could be a perfection of craft.

 

I like to compare games with toys since their purpose is similar. The rubiks cube, the classic wood rocking horse or a handmade doll house, - are perfect in what they try to achieve - to be a toy. Its not art, but its the very pinnacle of that particular craft, which comes close.

 

I think there are many games that are a perfection of the craft of making a game. The mentioned Super Mario/Pac Man/Tetris are good examples. They achieve their purpose entirely - to entertain and as far as form is concerned - they are perfect. they are great toys.

 

What sets the art above craft is the achievement of being above the demands of the craft. Something universal, a value which will be recognized equally many years from now.

 

Torment goes above craft in storyline, Homeworld in the visual, audio and narrative segments (and their integration) and Shadow of the Collossus in the mood, mystique and visual part. They are so far above the competition that I can think of no better label than art.

Edited September 13, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Slowtrain]

The art discussion always goes straight to hell.

 

Yeah, but so do half the regauar discussion topics on the internet.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Slowtrain

[RPGmasterBoo]

What's troubling about games is that they don't exist in a material form and that they are dependent on an external source to exist (one which changes very rapidly), which is a huge detriment to their longevity. Obviously such is the case with all art, but with games this is much worse.

Edited September 13, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Purkake]

The art discussion always goes straight to hell.

 

Yeah, but so do half the regauar discussion topics on the internet.

 

Still, bringing up art is like asking for trouble.

 

@Boo what if the rocking horse was painted or carved really well? Can't it be both?

Edited September 13, 2009 by Purkake

[RPGmasterBoo]

Its a pretty fine line Purkake, I agree - to the point of being non-existent at times. Like a Faberge egg:

 

 

Is it a toy, or is it art? Or both?

In the case of games they are always both since the toy element is unavoidable.

In the long run a game can be:

a) a failure

b)passable/mediocre/good

c)perfect as craft

d)art

e)perfect as craft and art

 

As for the games that I selected I think they are not perfect as craft: torment has weak gameplay, homeworld hasnt really dethroned Starcraft, and Shadow isn't original or outstanding from a gameplay perspective. But they more than compensate by being art and hitting a different goal so to speak. I havent found a game that would fall under e) but I don't think its impossible.

 

I dont deny that its all loose categorization, and thats when the job comes down to competent people.

Art is not democratic, the inexperienced majority simply doesn't get a vote.

In our case the experienced people are ones who have stuck around long enough, and played-experienced most of what is offered.

Edited September 13, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Darth InSidious]

Not sure if Planescape counts as art per se, but it's certainly the best-written game I can think of. Certainly, it has a greater claim to being art than 98% of what gets turned out at present...

 

There might be a Halo forum with a similar thread mulling over the awesomeness of Halo 1's plot and condemning the sequels. You might say that they are wrong, but they might say the same about you.

Yes, but they are fools.

 

There are different degrees of art. It's not just art/notart

 

This... You can't compare Picasso with Van Gogh, can you?

Certainly you can. It's just a profitless endeavour.

[Purkake]

There might be a Halo forum with a similar thread mulling over the awesomeness of Halo 1's plot and condemning the sequels. You might say that they are wrong, but they might say the same about you.

Yes, but they are fools.

 

And they say the same about you.

 

There's no objective truth, everything's subjective. In the end all you have is your opinion.

 

EDIT: At least when it comes to art.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Purkake

[Maria Caliban]

The box art is bad. I get that they're trying to do something different, but for people who've never heard of planescape, what does a blue zombie face tell them?

 

Hmm what is she was the protagonist in PST? *gets sucked into a singularity of pure awesome*

 

It would be a very different game. I don't see April as having several different incarnations, or being interested in the philosophy of the world. For an artist, she had a very straightforward outlook on life.

 

No casual gamer with no prior knowledge of the game is going to pick that up instead of Freespace 2, Half-Life, or...(shudder) Everquest

 

No casual gamer would pick up Freespace 2, Half-Life, or Everquest.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Maria Caliban

[RPGmasterBoo]

Not really Purkake. Van Gogh's, Mozart's and Michelangelo's work is objectively art.

 

Now you could argue that those are all subjective opinions, and that their objectiveness is nothing but a large number of people sharing that same opinion over a long passage of time but that's a dead end argument, as it effectively eradicates all values. its a solipsist philosophy and it was as empty today as it was in Descarte's time. It has a lot of merit and is worth knowing, but human beings need a common objective standpoint which is evidenced by the fact that we live in a society. If everything was subjective, then law, morality, truth, art - you name it - would cease to exist because they are someone's subjective opinion on how things are/should be.

 

granted, everything is fluid, and many things change - but an objective measure of things has to exist.

 

In games that could mean that no criteria could differentiate the quality of Halo, Torment and Dungeon Lords for example and its obviously a worthless position to take.

Edited September 13, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Purkake]

Hmm what is she was the protagonist in PST? *gets sucked into a singularity of pure awesome*

 

It would be a very different game. I don't see April as having several different incarnations, or being interested in the philosophy of the world. For an artist, she had a very straightforward outlook on life.

 

I was thinking more of a general Planescape game with April.

 

@Boo, if you sat down someone who's never heard of Picasso or seen his paintings and showed him one of Picasso's pieces and some crap you made in 5 minutes, could he pick out the "real" art every time?

Edited September 13, 2009 by Purkake

[RPGmasterBoo]

The box art is bad. I get that they're trying to do something different, but for people who've never heard of planescape, what does a blue zombie face tell them?

 

It is. It even hurt sales to a certain degree. A simple symbol of torment on a leather book type background as seen in the ending cinematic would have been infinitely better.

Edited September 13, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Maria Caliban]

...but an objective measure of things has to exist...

 

No, it doesn't. As a human being, you may desperately want an objective measure of things, and you may seek to find an objective measure of things, but the universe isn't obliged or even interested in helping you out.

 

Good argument for a Planescape thread guys.

 

I was thinking more of a general Planescape game with April.

 

Okay, but I still think it would be a very different game. That's the beauty of the fixed protagonist.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Maria Caliban