Kotaku article!

[Calax]

http://kotaku.com/5348445/weekend-reader-s...as-achievements

 

Basically guy gets pissed and writes a essay about how games should be ashamed at making sex into a reward. Specifically targeting Alpha Protocol because of it's achievement.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

But, there's also an achievement for keeping it in your pants.

[Slowtrain]

+50,000 sales right there.

[Cloaker]

And almost everyone on there discusses and defends the sex scenes in ME. It's like early 08 all over again.

But seriously, this is getting pathetic. I really hope I don't see any more articles like this about AP.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Cloaker

[Pop]

The way that game romances function is a direct extension of quest and narrative design - buildup to payoff, and for any number of reasons, most of them commercial, the payoff is sex. Note how in Bioware games, romances pretty much cease existing after intercourse has taken place (perhaps a notable exception is in BG2, wherein the vampirism subplot can potentially ask players to be attached to the romantic interest past the point at which sex happens)

 

The argument is essentially correct. It's unfortunate there's no real discussion for the argument to exist meaningfully in. Gamers are consumers first, and where they aren't misogynistic they are by and large not opposed to misogyny. In cases like The Witcher, misogyny is openly and enthusiastically touted as an appeal of the game, a part of the atmosphere or a (embarrassingly ironic) proof of maturity and gravitas. Still, I wouldn't say that it's demanded to such an extent that it ensures the success of a game, and so I don't actually buy the commonly argued idea that developers are helplessly subject to the whims of their audience. Obsidian in this case is making a blatantly calculated overture to the puerile sensibility they perceive in the marketplace by choosing to lift the Bond sexual sensibility wholesale while being more selective in other respects. I think it was Ryan who gave the interview about the sex scenes and how "tasteful" they are, and just reading excerpts from the interview it's pretty clear that he knows what he's saying is utter bull****. He seems supremely uncomfortable trying to spin it as though it's not what this article suggests.

 

That isn't to say that Obsidz is full of misogynists. On the contrary, there seems to be an attitude amongst prominent devs that romances are useless and tasteless (which should serve as further indictment against the shamelessness of AP) They just make misogynistic games.

 

Isn't it sort of funny how a "casual" game franchise like the Sims, which presents the mechanics of sexuality at an elementary school level, is more realistic than "artful" games that are far more suggestive?

Edited August 29, 2009 by Pop

[Slowtrain]

Video games are way too shallow to be misogynistic.

 

 

They're just simplistic.

[Pop]

sig'd

[RPGmasterBoo]

All of the people that write these sort of articles dont go to bed with anything other than their hand.

 

Sex, like life in general is to be taken lightly. To make an issue out of it shows personal insecurities and frustrations in the person that's ranting.

Same goes for anyone who bashed the Witcher or Mass Effect or any other game that included it. Its a joke, f-ing entertainment - just like it is in real life for christ's sakes.

Sex is good, and in the right videogame it fits.

it fit in the GTA mindset, it fit in Mass Effect and it fit in the Witcher. To take a thing that isnt serious by itself seriously is a serious flaw. Seriously.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Sex, like life in general is to be taken lightly.

 

Really?

 

Okay, okay; I get it in context, but as a general statement I'm not sure I'd agree.

[Pop]

All of the people that write these sort of articles dont go to bed with anything other than their hand.

 

Sex, like life in general is to be taken lightly. To make an issue out of it shows personal insecurities and frustrations in the person that's ranting.

Same goes for anyone who bashed the Witcher or Mass Effect or any other game that included it. Its a joke, f-ing entertainment - just like it is in real life for christ's sakes.

Sex is good, and in the right videogame it fits.

it fit in the GTA mindset, it fit in Mass Effect and it fit in the Witcher. To take a thing that isnt serious by itself seriously is a serious flaw. Seriously.

After seeing that I am only a year older than you are, I have opened a bottle of scotch and poured a glass.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Just because Mike has sex with the four women, doesn't mean the women don't want to/enjoy it. Heck, they might be using you for all you know.

Edited August 29, 2009 by WILL THE ALMIGHTY

[RPGmasterBoo]

Sex, like life in general is to be taken lightly.

 

Really?

 

Okay, okay; I get it in context, but as a general statement I'm not sure I'd agree.

 

All I'm saying is:

Whats the point of raising a ruckus when the guy who is writing the article goes 3 hours later to bed with his wife? in whose name is he doing this? Is his wife complaining that Geralt bedded a record number of women? I think not.

When I get an actual women in large numbers complaining that games are doing them wrong I'll even consider this argument. In fact to continue the witcher analogy, I've read reviews from women who enjoyed playing Geralt immensely, and were quite diligent in getting all the cards.

So ultimately, its all baseless ranting.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Just because Mike has sex with the four women, doesn't mean the women don't want to/enjoy it. Heck, they might be using you for all you know.

 

Velvet Velour in Vampire Bloodlines was a prime example. She effectively promised sex, while getting you to run errands, and when you did all her dirty work she said: okay baby, don't call me, I'll call you.

So there you have it, a vampire biaitch using us poor men. Now I'm gonna write a kilometer long rant about it and get CNN to back me up, and call for a retroactive KKK burning of Bloodlines discs.

 

Edited August 29, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Pop]

Just because Mike has sex with the four women, doesn't mean the women don't want to/enjoy it. Heck, they might be using you for all you know.

Did you read the Gamecritic article? The issue isn't with the specific contexts of the romances, it's the problems that present themselves when you introduce sex as an actual part of gameplay, specifically as a reward for playing the game right, given the limitations of what a game can do, given the goals designers place in games.

 

I remember when V:TMB came out and people were pissed because you had to have certain stats and basically had to plan ahead with your dialogue from the get-go to have sex with Jeanette. That the character was overtly sexual but unattainable (what an odd word to use) in the majority of game builds frustrated a lot of gamers. Which is indicative of the way that gamers generally tend to see women in games. One, they did all this **** for Jeanette and it was a big let-down when she just sends you off after having teased you for the last few hours. People felt cheated. You only feel cheated when you think you earn something and you don't get it.

 

So why did people feel as though they had earned sex with Jeanette? What about VV, who seems actually attracted to the PC but just sends him love letters? It's because of the idea of sex-as-commodity that exists in the culture (certainly not relegated only to video games, mind you) Troika was actually pretty daring in that they presented these sexual women who didn't want to have sex with your character (it's expressly implied that Jeanette only does it because she's crazy and bored out of her skull) They clashed with the idea of female sexuality that most people seem to have - that a woman would talk about sex, work as a stripper, and wear revealing clothing all suggest to most people that she is willing, and it's dissonant to them when that woman is not. Those actions are all "for sale" signs to us, and when a woman who does them are uninterested we feel an affront as though we walked into a shop only to find that they aren't selling to us. They've got the "open" sign on for everyone to see, why can't we buy? That people actually get angry at women for doing these things is troubling - people should be free to wear whatever they want and work wherever they want without assumptions being made about their intentions and their wants. To put it bluntly, people should have the right to act in a suggestive manner and still deny consent. V:TMB is interesting in how it challenges the prevailing notions of female sexuality. But it is a lone beacon in a sea of Witchers.

 

The process of romance in video games is transactional - I pursue a relationship with Aerie, and doing so does not gain me any tangible in-game benefit (with Jaheira it's arguable, considering all the unique encounters and quests you undertake with her) but there's obviously a coda in the sex. All the dialogue leads up to it. As it is with Bioware games, and with KOTOR2 / NWN2 (MotB gets relatively high marks, actually). Thing is, with AP it doesn't look like the sex is there under a pretense of "character development". It's there for its own sake. It certainly seems to be marketed that way. There does seem to be a difference in that there is a tangible effect on the game insofar as reputation is concerned. But the context of it all is sexual trophy-hunting.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Pop

[RPGmasterBoo]

Actually its not always a reward. In the gothic games you paid 50 gold coins for a hooker and were rewarded with an FMV video. And thats it. It was just another thing you could do in the game. Vampire Bloodlines started with a sex scene. Indigo Prophecy had you playing guitar for your ex girlfriend which resulted in relatively a unexpected sex scene.

In fact its not always obivous that you age getting any (see Velvet).

And even when it is, it requires you to make an effort to get to it, which is in essence the same as real life. Its a caricature of real life to be sure, but it has a sense to it.

Although in some games you have to make more of an effort than in real life

[RPGmasterBoo]

ha, and the article get to this towards the end:

 

"For all the player's "choice" of with whom to engage, there's no possibility that the player might want to have a relationship with another man. It also shows that lesbians just don't exist in this world, if every single woman is open to a sexual encounter with a man."

 

How the hell is that relevant? What agenda is the author actually rooting for?

Sorry but the article is baseless ranting reinforced by the total ignorance of the man writing it about the actual content of Alpha Protocol.

We'll in fact know how well this fits into the game when we play it. No sooner.

[Syraxis]

Sounds like he's attempting to stir up controversy to bring in page views for the site, wouldn't be the first time either.

 

Gaming "journalism"

[RPGmasterBoo]

I remember when V:TMB came out and people were pissed because you had to have certain stats and basically had to plan ahead with your dialogue from the get-go to have sex with Jeanette. That the character was overtly sexual but unattainable (what an odd word to use) in the majority of game builds frustrated a lot of gamers. Which is indicative of the way that gamers generally tend to see women in games. One, they did all this **** for Jeanette and it was a big let-down when she just sends you off after having teased you for the last few hours. People felt cheated. You only feel cheated when you think you earn something and you don't get it. So why did people feel as though they had earned sex with Jeanette? What about VV, who seems actually attracted to the PC but just sends him love letters?

 

But that's cool. it'll teach them to be less stupid and naive in real life and know that nothing is for certain, and that relationships dont work the way they suppose them to. There is a good lesson in that frustration.

[ironcreed]

But, there's also an achievement for keeping it in your pants.

 

Exactly, "your weapon is choice." I guess they missed that part....or just assumed that the average person playing will probably consider their weapon to be in their pants, lol.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Thing is, with AP it doesn't look like the sex is there under a pretense of "character development". It's there for its own sake. It certainly seems to be marketed that way.

 

If you're role playing a suave spy in the James Bond style its mandatory. It goes with the established genre. Alpha Protocol is a halfway spoof on the spy genre (like the opening box thing with the entire arsenal of the army of the peoples republic of china), and in the context it makes for perfect role playing sense. However if you want to be Bourne, a no nonsense professional, you can be - and skip the sex.

Its the fault of previewers getting a boner at the mention of virtual sex and neglecting to mention other aspects of the game.

Edited August 29, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Pop]

Sounds like he's attempting to stir up controversy to bring in page views for the site, wouldn't be the first time either.

 

Gaming "journalism"

Uh, Kotaku didn't actually write the piece on misogyny. That was Gamecritic.

 

Linking to articles on other sites is actually a function of legitimate news aggregation blogs like Kotaku.

[Pop]

But that's cool. it'll teach them to be less stupid and naive in real life and know that nothing is for certain, and that relationships dont work the way they suppose them to. There is a good lesson in that frustration.

I very much doubt V:TMB taught anybody anything. A game can't teach life lessons when every other game contradicts it. Insofar as misogyny is concerned, they contribute to and enforce a larger narrative about the nature of gender politics that is pushed implicitly through every media imaginable.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Pop

[Karranthain]

Looks like you're very upset about video games.

[Pop]

It's more accurate to say I am intellectually superior to the vast majority of gamers and I like to flex on dumbass mother****ers.

 

And to egregiously appropriate the words of Dr. King, there can be no deep disappointment where there is not a deep love. I call games on their **** because I love them. And because I'm smarter than the people who buy them. But also because I am deeply disappointed in the capacity of my fellow gamers to think critically, because I love my comrades. To appropriately apply the words of another great man, I pity the fool.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Pop

[Karranthain]

Edit your posts more, take your time.

 

Making superfluous posts doesn't quite prove your claim though. But there's some humour shining through your last post, so I'll let it slide.