North Korea: Great Country, or Greatest Country?

[Gorgon]

If North Korea was so fab I kinda doubt people would risk their lives to get out, and they continually do.

[Walsingham]

Hell, I make $200 a day, why not. I'll also chip in $100.

 

How much does it cost to fly there anyway? I imagine it'd be pretty expensive since you'd probably need to hire a private jet and a pilot good enough to avoid being shot down.

 

If we keep piling up cash like this then we may be able to pay the North Korean government to come get him.

[Gorgon]

One thing that has always bugged me:

 

I fail to see why democratic communism is an unworkable concept. Communism is an economic system, democracy is a governmental one. Why do people always conflate communism with dictatorship?

 

Because in practice, all communist regimes have been totalitarian.

 

And to be honest, I think what you're aiming for is socialist democracy which, while not unworkable, teetters far too close to totalitarian for my liking, because the government has so much raw power.

In Italy and the former Russian republics municipal government has been run by communists (this is while the country is democratic) as far as I know it worked tolerably well.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Gorgon

[Azure79]

I'll just say, for a pretty impartial and factual account of contemporary Korean history, Don Oberdofer's book, The Two Koreas is a good read.

 

It gives some background on the international environment at the time, such as the Sino-Soviet split, normalizations between China, South Korea and the United States and other factor's that contributed to North Korea's policies. It covers everything from Post WW2 up until the summit between former South Korean President Kim Dae Jung and Kim Jong Il.

[Walsingham]

I know we're hardly strangers to bad taste, but I do think it's going rather far to claim that North Korea is a happy worker's paradise. Thousands, possibly tens or even hundreds of thousands of human beings have been sacrificed to the towering ego of a flatulent midget.

 

If any flatulent midgets are going to get sacrificed to around here that midget should be me.

[lord of flies]

If North Korea was so fab I kinda doubt people would risk their lives to get out, and they continually do.

"Buh, buh, if the USA is so great, how come people are running away to the Soviet Union??? Riddle me that!!!"

- You, circa 1930.

[Darth InSidious]

Hell, I make $200 a day, why not. I'll also chip in $100.

 

How much does it cost to fly there anyway? I imagine it'd be pretty expensive since you'd probably need to hire a private jet and a pilot good enough to avoid being shot down.

 

If we keep piling up cash like this then we may be able to pay the North Korean government to come get him.

Haven't we got double their annual GDP as it is already?

[Gorgon]

If North Korea was so fab I kinda doubt people would risk their lives to get out, and they continually do.

"Buh, buh, if the USA is so great, how come people are running away to the Soviet Union??? Riddle me that!!!"

- You, circa 1930.

 

 

You remind me a bit of what the Danish Communists used to say about East Germany, without actually having met

any non regime East Germans of course.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Gorgon

[Walsingham]

You got to love all these people who bang on about communism but steadfastly refuse to go to the paradise communist countries. Excepting of course usually they don't try and pretend the actual communist countries are paradises. This troll is a new level.

[alanschu]

If North Korea was so fab I kinda doubt people would risk their lives to get out, and they continually do.

"Buh, buh, if the USA is so great, how come people are running away to the Soviet Union??? Riddle me that!!!"

- You, circa 1930.

 

 

They were?

 

What exactly were the emigration rates of the United States in the 1930s compared to before (and even After)? It'd be grand if you could also show those that emigrated to the Soviet Union.

 

 

I know immigration went way down, given the Great Depression as well as US Laws limiting immigration imposed in 1927.

Edited August 20, 2009 by alanschu

[Gorgon]

I dunno what dodging bullets and trying to avoid informants and the Chinese authorities, who would deport them back to the death camps automatically, has to do with immigration.

 

These are people risking it all to get out of a hellhole and down to Seoul where the South Koreans accept them automatically as citizens.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Gorgon

[GreasyDogMeat]

LoF, why do you even live in America? This bourgeoisie, stifling country must be HELL for you! Why have you not saved up enough rubles to move to Cuba or Iran, the land of puppies, rainbows, lollipops and individual freedom? You could even sneak across the southern boarder into Mexico. Even IT is a better place to live.

 

I think its because you are great man! You wish to educate all the blissfully ignorant Americans about how horrible their lives really are! Keep up the fight brother!

[Tigranes]

Man, you people talk way too much.

 

LOF, coming back to your point about DPRK being ahead of ROK till the late 1960s, drudging through my memory again, I can probably agree with you on that - the state of the infrastructure and industrial systems in both countries had been royally screwed up by the Japanese occupation, and it may be that the communist state was initially more successful at getting things running and getting things going. (Ironically, that's one of the reasons quite a few South Koreans view the military dictatorships up to 1987 to be a 'necessary evil' - it got the highways down, factories open and the money flowing.) And while the DPRK did receive a massive amount of Chinese / Soviet aid, ROK got quite a bit from the US as well. I think the main factor is that having been modelled quite closely on the USSR, the DPRK economy was never likely to keep up with the ROK, unless the domino effect came about and a much larger communist bloc was established (for trade / etc purposes).

 

Kinda talking out of my ass here though, because it's been a while.

[Hurlshort]

Hey man, I'm all for North Korea. Their children's hands are as small as anyone's and as capable of the type of quality stitching I demand in my consumer goods.

 

Awesome, missed this gem earlier!

 

 

Lee Harvey Oswald emigrated to Russia. But he wasn't happy with the fact they made him a common workman or something, so he complained until they sent him back to the US.

[Humodour]

I know we're hardly strangers to bad taste, but I do think it's going rather far to claim that North Korea is a happy worker's paradise. Thousands, possibly tens or even hundreds of thousands of human beings have been sacrificed to the towering ego of a flatulent midget.

 

If any flatulent midgets are going to get sacrificed to around here that midget should be me.

 

Well millions have died from NK government induced famine, so I think your figures are a bit low.

[Humodour]

Hell, I make $200 a day, why not. I'll also chip in $100.

 

How much does it cost to fly there anyway? I imagine it'd be pretty expensive since you'd probably need to hire a private jet and a pilot good enough to avoid being shot down.

 

If we keep piling up cash like this then we may be able to pay the North Korean government to come get him.

Haven't we got double their annual GDP as it is already?

 

'We'? Australia has a GDP of 1 trillion dollars. South Korea has a GDP just shy of 1 trillion. America has a GDP of 14 trillion. North Korea has a GDP of 0.025 billion.

 

Oh wait, I get it. lol.

[Walsingham]

Ok. I guess we could just get him a brush for his hair, and maybe a nice button hole flower. He'd look so adorable they'd be bound to come and take him back to their country, to add a splash of colour to their terrified existences.

[Humodour]

Man, you people talk way too much.

 

LOF, coming back to your point about DPRK being ahead of ROK till the late 1960s, drudging through my memory again, I can probably agree with you on that - the state of the infrastructure and industrial systems in both countries had been royally screwed up by the Japanese occupation, and it may be that the communist state was initially more successful at getting things running and getting things going. (Ironically, that's one of the reasons quite a few South Koreans view the military dictatorships up to 1987 to be a 'necessary evil' - it got the highways down, factories open and the money flowing.) And while the DPRK did receive a massive amount of Chinese / Soviet aid, ROK got quite a bit from the US as well. I think the main factor is that having been modelled quite closely on the USSR, the DPRK economy was never likely to keep up with the ROK, unless the domino effect came about and a much larger communist bloc was established (for trade / etc purposes).

 

Kinda talking out of my ass here though, because it's been a while.

 

IIRC, the North Korean economy actually was doing pretty well (better than SKorea's) up until about the 1970's when their 7 year central plans started failing epically and their communist leaders all collectively started losing their minds. A big part of the reason for their economic failure at this point (besides ever less rational central planning) was the fact that they spent 25% or so of their GDP on military, which was a problem even huge amounts of Chinese and Soviet aid couldn't fix.

[Rostere]

Regardless of the atrocities inflicted on North Korean citizens by South Korean and American forces during the Korean War, I do not think that North Korea should be excused for it's authoritarian policies. A country which so frequently has problems with famine can obviously not be considered other than a failed state although in part, this may be due to their bad relations with the outside world and restrictive trade policies (Yugoslavia someone?).

[Guest PoziomyPion]

I find it amazing how a flamebait topic can turn into such an interesting discussion.

 

Thanks Lord od Flies, you may be considered a troll or an alt, but surely people like posting in your threads.

 

Obsidian logo on the top should be replaced with this: just to appreciate Lords of Flies character.

Edited August 22, 2009 by PoziomyPion

[Purkake]

There's no party like the communist party.

[alanschu]

I bet China is a dream as well, sharing North Korea's practice of giving the people all the power.

[lord of flies]

I bet China is a dream as well, sharing North Korea's practice of giving the people all the power.

If you think China has been a communist nation since Mao died, you are functionally illiterate or woefully ignorant. "Hmm, yes, let's economically liberalize while retaining our one-party state. This is very revolutionary, going into regressive bourgeois politics reminiscent of the late USSR." It is nothing more than an authoritarian regime that labels itself Communist, much as the Nazi regime in Germany labeled itself "Socialist."

[alanschu]

Those Chinese certainly seem to be much worse off because of it.

 

I know it was dreamy before hand.

 

 

But hey, I'm the one that's woefully ignorant apparently. Coming from the one that can't be bothered to check the facts of the propaganda he spews, I find your assertion quite humourous.

Edited August 23, 2009 by alanschu

[Walsingham]

I know china's not communist. I'm sick of communists trying to cop out of the observed facts concerning communism. Newsflash: communism is nonsensical political system. It's like positing a political system where the economy is powered by perpetual motion machines. Or being chauffered everywhere by magic pigs. Or a chocolate hat.

 

Nice idea, and totally impossible.

 

Not only does observed history show communist states becoming totalitarian dung heaps, but the process is perfectly logical.

 

1. A communist system of monetary equality is not the natural order of human behaviour.

2. Not being natural, communism must be enforced, and must be enforced by a large enough apparatus to overpower divergent groups within society

3. This communism sustaining apparatus will tend to accumulate power, because while it can acquire power there is no contrary organisation to remove power from it. The rate can vary but the direction never changes.

4. Eventually the communism sustaining apparatus will accumulate so much power that monetary equality is redundant. All become slaves to the Party, except the very highest party officials

5. And that's what has happened in every communist state.

 

Not that I expect you to pay any attention to this. After all, if a nation of millions living in fear and degradation doesn't change your mind then nothing I can say is going to.