How well does Integration of Immigrants work in your country?

[Gorgon]

If they did get in they would tilt the power balance in the parliament because of proportional representation. 70. million people live in Turkey, more than in France.

[Morgoth]

And Europe would magically develop backwards into the middle age again. No thank you.

[Purkake]

If they did get in they would tilt the power balance in the parliament because of proportional representation. 70. million people live in Turkey, more than in France.

 

Yeah, if they all magically gained citizenship. Immigarnts don't get to vote the parliament, at least not here.

[Gorgon]

If Turkey got in the EU they would get 70. million people worth of representation in the EU parliament.

[Morgoth]

And the official EU statistics of the fertility rate would magically rise up 500% again.

[Purkake]

If Turkey got in the EU they would get 70. million people worth of representation in the EU parliament.

 

I didn't think of the EU parliament. But still, they couldn't do anything crazy, Germany has 82 million people and 99 seats in the EU parliament and the largest party has 284 seats. Turkey couldn't really do anything alone with their ~85 seats.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Purkake

[Rosbjerg]

Turkey in the Europe Union would be a good thing for them (from a western point of view) as they would have to follow the laws of EU.. It would move them further towards democracy.. It wouldn't move us away from it.

 

And Morgoth, I can highly recommend that you take a long vacation in Turkey and talk to the locals.. you will see that they aren't anything like what you imagine.

[Gorth]

...doesn't have to deal with these scumbags that reproduce in high speed and try to undermine our culture on a daily basis... ...undertanding zilch of the dangerous situation...

but you start to care if there're imams that get trained to be hate preachers and potential terrorist contacts.

You know that many bombing attacks are often orgranized by imams?

I rather do worry about these potential dangerous subjects, because they're a threat to our safety.

And Europe would magically develop backwards into the middle age again. No thank you.

And the official EU statistics of the fertility rate would magically rise up 500% again.

Not really sure what to say, the quotes sort of speak for themselves. Everything is not well in the Fuhrer Bunker?

 

It does sound very similar to propaganda reels from the thirties you know?

 

Or rather, it sounds like fear speaking. I wonder what it is exactly that scares you? Is it fear of crime and violence? Fear of the unkown? Is it fear of loss of national identity? A fear of feeling like a stranger in your own home? Something is obviously bothering you and I suspect that you are looking for a way of expressing it, but not necessaily finding the right focus in your own search for reasons. The hyperbole makes it too easy to dismiss, which is a shame. Some of the facts your presented are interesting, but why not stick to facts (and at least keep up appearances of presenting them objectively) and let people draw their own conclusions?

 

On a slightly related note Gorths thoughts on nationalism.

[Morgoth]

...doesn't have to deal with these scumbags that reproduce in high speed and try to undermine our culture on a daily basis... ...undertanding zilch of the dangerous situation...

but you start to care if there're imams that get trained to be hate preachers and potential terrorist contacts.

You know that many bombing attacks are often orgranized by imams?

I rather do worry about these potential dangerous subjects, because they're a threat to our safety.

And Europe would magically develop backwards into the middle age again. No thank you.

And the official EU statistics of the fertility rate would magically rise up 500% again.

Not really sure what to say, the quotes sort of speak for themselves. Everything is not well in the Fuhrer Bunker?

 

It does sound very similar to propaganda reels from the thirties you know?

 

Or rather, it sounds like fear speaking. I wonder what it is exactly that scares you? Is it fear of crime and violence? Fear of the unkown? Is it fear of loss of national identity? A fear of feeling like a stranger in your own home? Something is obviously bothering you and I suspect that you are looking for a way of expressing it, but not necessaily finding the right focus in your own search for reasons. The hyperbole makes it too easy to dismiss, which is a shame. Some of the facts your presented are interesting, but why not stick to facts (and at least keep up appearances of presenting them objectively) and let people draw their own conclusions?

 

On a slightly related note Gorths thoughts on nationalism.

What's that garbage with F

[Gorth]

I don't want this generation to be our future that only has negative feelings about the multicultural dream.

Much better

[Guest PoziomyPion]

I'd say Morgoth is right to feel how he feels, 'cause immigration is a problem that isn't handled well in Europe. Multi-culturalism doesn't work in real life like we would like to. It might work in big hubs like London, Paris etc. but that's something normal for big cities that are main centres of politics, economics,arts. I'm not religious, but I don't wanna see Mosques everywhere I go, it wouldn't be Poland anymore. I mean we have mosques and other kind of churches, but it's far from what happens in the western Europe(and it happens way too fast, that's why natives get angry so easly. ) Most people in Poland don't mind immigrants, we respect their beliefs etc. bla bla bla <insert politically correct rant here approved by EU> but if we were literally raided by immigrants who in large numbers don't respect our culture and our country and demand us to change our ways to fit theirs... sorry won't happen! (I hope!).

 

Just to add, when I was in Britain for 7 months, worked there, I was instantly put in a role of a loser that will work for everyone else. Nobody said that directly to me at the beginnig, they admitted that when I didn't let them push me around and in the end I made some friends. Being politically correct and a hypocrite doesnt help. Just say no for immigrants or set the rules. Culture of each European country is unique and we should be proud of it and shouldn't hide our pride behind political corectness.The thing is cultural roots are such a big part of our life, most of us won't feel good abroad. I didn't so I left and came back to Poland. I could stay there, make more money etc. but I wouldn't be British, their culture is too diffrent, we value diffrent things etc bla bla bla.

 

It really depends on where you are raised, it's a big part of history of your life that ultimately makes your character.

 

Immigration only works when people want to have a better life and feel like they are at home abroad and they accept their new home country for what it is and do not try to change it into Poland #2 or Turkey#2.

 

Or when you fall in love with some Hispanic mucho-macho firefighter and decide to move to Spain.

For Jaesun

Edited May 18, 2009 by PoziomyPion

[Gfted1]

On a slightly related note Gorths thoughts on nationalism.

 

 

Huh, Ive been a member there for 5 years now, I thought a lot of those names looked familiar. Guess I should try to remember my password.

[Cycloneman]

Jesus Christ Morgoth, I thought Europe was a shining beacon of liberalism or some such? Look, sometimes immigrants never integrate. Cry some more. There is still a massive gulf between African and European immigrants here in the USA, in terms of education, location, social position, and oftentimes culture, even those that have been divorced from their "home countries" for centuries.

 

Ethnic ties were forged thousands of years ago, and the idea that people must be expected to completely abandon them immediately, in a society which does not tolerate and accept their differences (especially with that great divider we call religion), is preposterous. While to say that it is ideal that we retain ethnic separatism is equally preposterous and even more immoral, you cannot force integration. Sorry.

[Morgoth]

Jesus Christ Morgoth, I thought Europe was a shining beacon of liberalism or some such? Look, sometimes immigrants never integrate. Cry some more. There is still a massive gulf between African and European immigrants here in the USA, in terms of education, location, social position, and oftentimes culture, even those that have been divorced from their "home countries" for centuries.

 

Ethnic ties were forged thousands of years ago, and the idea that people must be expected to completely abandon them immediately, in a society which does not tolerate and accept their differences (especially with that great divider we call religion), is preposterous. While to say that it is ideal that we retain ethnic separatism is equally preposterous and even more immoral, you cannot force integration. Sorry.

What the heck are you trying to say? I don't have to like Turkish macho-Nationalism. Nor do we have to accept it.

[Cycloneman]

What the heck are you trying to say? I don't have to like Turkish macho-Nationalism. Nor do we have to accept it.

"Gosh durn Turks coming to our country! They don't speak our language or pray to our god, and they live in ghettos!"

 

That's what I'm talking about. Hmm, no, the separateness of ethnic Turks from white Europeans couldn't possibly have anything to do with our discrimination against them. Must be because TURKISH MACHO-NATIONALISM.

 

Why don't you just start up "Stolen Generations" version two, and get it over with?

Edited May 18, 2009 by Cycloneman

[Morgoth]

What the heck are you trying to say? I don't have to like Turkish macho-Nationalism. Nor do we have to accept it.

"Gosh durn Turks coming to our country! They don't speak our language or pray to our god, and they live in ghettos!"

 

That's what I'm talking about. Hmm, no, the separateness of ethnic Turks from white Europeans couldn't possibly have anything to do with our discrimination against them. Must be because TURKISH MACHO-NATIONALISM.

 

Why don't you just start up "Stolen Generations" version two, and get it over with?

I think you completely missed my point. Read the posts again. jerk.

[Cycloneman]

I think you completely missed my point. Read the posts again. jerk.

I'm sorry, once was enough. Perhaps you could explain how I "misinterpreted" your posts?

[Morgoth]

I think you completely missed my point. Read the posts again. jerk.

I'm sorry, once was enough. Perhaps you could explain how I "misinterpreted" your posts?

Well you're rambling about ethnicity and language issues. That's not the issue. The issue is that when you have Turks living here for several decades that still behave like they're from the middle ages, then there are problems programmed.

[Cycloneman]

Well you're rambling about ethnicity and language issues. That's not the issue. The issue is that when you have Turks living here for several decades that still behave like they're from the middle ages, then there are problems programmed.

It's pretty much just "unrealistic expectations" to anticipate any first generation immigrant (that is, off-the-boat immigrants) to ever totally fall into the local cultural norms. The more important question is if second generation immigrants are behaving according to local cultural norms. If they aren't, it reflects societal influences, such as ostracization or ghettoization, which are generally as much (if not moreso) the fault of the dominant group as they are the fault of the immigrants. Do you mean that second generation immigrants living in your country still behave according to their "home" country's cultural norms?

[Morgoth]

Well you're rambling about ethnicity and language issues. That's not the issue. The issue is that when you have Turks living here for several decades that still behave like they're from the middle ages, then there are problems programmed.

It's pretty much just "unrealistic expectations" to anticipate any first generation immigrant (that is, off-the-boat immigrants) to ever totally fall into the local cultural norms. The more important question is if second generation immigrants are behaving according to local cultural norms. If they aren't, it reflects societal influences, such as ostracization or ghettoization, which are generally as much (if not moreso) the fault of the dominant group as they are the fault of the immigrants. Do you mean that second generation immigrants living in your country still behave according to their "home" country's cultural norms?

I'm talking about a 3rd(!) generation of Austro-Turks that still have trouble to loosen their ties/views from their parents/grandparents. As I said, I blame Turkish nationalism for that, it prohibits to adapt to the host culture, because this is seen as a sin. Other immigrants from other countries do very well btw.

[Cycloneman]

I'm talking about a 3rd(!) generation of Austro-Turks that still have trouble to loosen their ties/views from their parents/grandparents. As I said, I blame Turkish nationalism for that, it prohibits to adapt to the host culture, because this is seen as a sin. Other immigrants from other countries do very well btw.

Did you ever consider that maybe it's just because you Europeans hate Turks so much? You could've said the same thing about Irish-Americans perhaps a hundred years ago, and now look at them - part of our national heritage!

[Morgoth]

I'm talking about a 3rd(!) generation of Austro-Turks that still have trouble to loosen their ties/views from their parents/grandparents. As I said, I blame Turkish nationalism for that, it prohibits to adapt to the host culture, because this is seen as a sin. Other immigrants from other countries do very well btw.

Did you ever consider that maybe it's just because you Europeans hate Turks so much? You could've said the same thing about Irish-Americans perhaps a hundred years ago, and now look at them - part of our national heritage!

You really have no clue what you're talking about, don't you? Apples and Oranges.

[Purkake]

It is a lot different in America. You have to learn the language, you can't just live in your little ghetto and get by. In smaller European countries the immigrants think that they can carve out their own little chunk and get by without learning the language or respecting the local laws/culture.

 

Of course there are also nice immigrants who just want to build a life in the new country, but for every one of those you have ten others who want everything to be the way they think it should be, laws included.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Purkake

[Hurlshort]

It is a lot different in America. You have to learn the language, you can't just live in your little ghetto and get by.

 

I'm not quite sure if you are saying you can get away with it in America or not. We have neighborhoods all over that support foreign languages. In the US you can pretty much go your whole life without learning English if you want. But we also don't have an official language in our country.

[Purkake]

It is a lot different in America. You have to learn the language, you can't just live in your little ghetto and get by.

 

I'm not quite sure if you are saying you can get away with it in America or not. We have neighborhoods all over that support foreign languages. In the US you can pretty much go your whole life without learning English if you want. But we also don't have an official language in our country.

 

I'm saying that in a bigger country the incentives to learn the language/culture are greater. The immigrants probably won't get the idea that they could mold the country to their wishes. For example, there are quite a few Russians here in Estonia who don't/won't learn the language because they feel superior to the locals and some still consider Estonia a part of Russia/Soviet Union.

 

In America, if the immigrants want their children to get a decent job/education they will have to at least learn the language.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Purkake