How well does Integration of Immigrants work in your country?

[Wrath of Dagon]

We look forward to becoming part of Mexico again.

[Gorth]

We look forward to becoming part of Mexico again.

Mexico knows firsthand the trouble you can get into when not integrating English speaking immigrants properly into society

 

I think the problems back in Denmark has more to do with cultural differences rather than religious. But then, I always believed that religion was a reflection of the society that created it rather than the opposite way around. To "our" (quotation marks because it feels odd to say as an ex-patriate) worldview, some of the "imported" values seems completely out of place. E.g. a very patriarchal structures of families (a nice way of saying chauvinist behaviour), the taboos (things you can't talk about), the different priorities between religion and secularity etc. It is tempting to think "how medieval can you get?", but that is a cheap shot, because you only have to go a handful of decades back to find many of the same thoughts in the very same place where it is now scoffed at.

 

Thing is, countries with little or no experience with non-local ethnic populations seems to have a hard time striking a balance between making reasonable demands of immigrants and demand them to give up their old cultural identity completely. Where the optimal balance is, is the subject of much venomous debate.

[Hiro Protagonist]

As for the gang and violence problem, that's only solvable in the very long view by making sure young immigrants don't define themselves in opposition to the rest of society, which is often the case.

 

Indeed. I caught up with an old school friend recently and he complained that there weren't many Aussies in the suburb he just moved into, it was mostly Asians. In my experience this is a pretty typical view here amongst white people, that if you aren't white you don't get called an Aussie. How are immigrants supposed to integrate when society constantly insists that they belong to some other group?

 

It's not necessarily white people not calling immigrants aussies, it can also be immigrants who set up communities and distance themselves from being called aussies. eg. Lebanese Community Council of NSW. Why would they call themselves Lebanese? Why not call themselves Australian? They're racial profiling themselves as much as white australians are. The same can be said for any ethnic background who racially profiles themselves from the rest of the community.

[Tigranes]

Why is it a Chinese, Pakistani, Afghan or Vietnamnese do well with their lives, while Turks don't?

 

Do you have anything to back this up Morgoth? I only have passing knowledge of Turkish immigrants in Germany and other European countries, so I can't really make a call.

 

Agreed. First-world nations that used to be European colonies, like the U.S. and Australia, have a much easier time of this sort of thing because cultural norms simply have shallower roots and are more easily shifted. In Europe, so much of the national identities are based on deeply rooted cultural traditions, so a large-scale influx of people who don't share these traditions has a more profound effect. Also, the more socialised economic systems you find in Western Europe create a rather heavy economic incentive for the native-born population to dislike the newcomers.

 

Enoch: Theoretically speaking, you'd think so, but even places like New Zealand, which might epitomise the 'shallower' (bad keyword to pick, sorry, I don't mean to suggest a pejorative connotation here on your part or mine) environment, seem to have surprisingly deep-rooted systems of normativity and social identity, at least with regards to our current topic.

 

To be honest, having been an immigrant (though my first-hand observation of immigrants from various locales is limited), it's much more an issue of communal and 'soft' structures and paths that are laid in place when you arrive, than your individual energy / skills or legislation and such 'hard' structures. Of course there are people who lack drive, ability, money or attitude and flounder (and thus benefit nobody), but on the whole I think the critical issues on whether immigrants, as individuals and as ethnic groups, integrate successfully (which of course is different from simple assimilation) and contribute to the host society long-term is dependent on things like whether immigrants from X have been able to form communities, what kind of communities they've been able to form, what areas of expertise or business they have penetrated (e.g. the absolute domination of the 'drug store' / 'dairy' (US/UK terminology) business by the Indian subcontinent in NZ and UK to an extent), and such, rather than big-money deals made between private enterprises or wholesale legislative changes (which find it difficult to intervene effectively in such processes anyway).

 

it can also be immigrants who set up communities and distance themselves from being called aussies.

 

Hiro: there are definitely people who live in their host country 'only in body and not in spirit', and I think that happens the most with people who come just to learn English... even if you have immigrated to just to earn a better living, to flee a war or to marry someone you have some kind of investment in the host society as a whole. But when you're just there to learn English it's extremely difficult to not think "I wouldn't be here anyway if it weren't for the dastardy domination of the English language". It is still lamentable, but when you look at such circumstances at a personal level it's difficult (and unrealistic) to tell them that they're contributing to a negative phenomenon.

[cronicler]

Let me give you the view from a native Turk a bit then.

In the aftermath of WWII there was a very heavy push for low class labor workers. In a very small time period the people who were branded "leftist" or to be more basic, the people who were thinking beyond their immediate time frame were cut off from important areas like education, decision making and general immigrant society both here and there in Eu. Coupled with this was the fact that most of the immigrants were clannish "rural" people.

In the period up to today, we had a lot of problems with radical and takeover minded groups who use islamic motives to hide behind. As you might notice we are going to hell in a hand-basket pretty fast over here. In Eu most people didn't know jack about those manipulative bastards who started teaching their own propaganda in the communities. So after years and years of silent brainwashing (free education for smart kids with brainwashing on top, free "help" in the form of monetary aids and cheap goods, community meetings that has become frighteningly cabalistic...) you have a group of people who are encouraged to make 4 babies a couple at least, who donate their cash to "legal" organizations that aim to "help" Turkey become another Iran (No I am not talking about secessionist Kurdish organizations here).

 

Don't look at me, Some Western governments were so afraid that we would go red, they had most of the progression advocated purged with other evil people like teachers and such while transferring heavy funding and education to Radical Islamics to counter the red threat. Now we are stuck with all the sabotages and the setbacks. A very angry part of me wants to say something stupid like; "Hope you enjoy your own crop of useless parasites" but thats just a primitive reaction.

 

Anyway, As far as I can see, the only solution will be heavy racist policies to clean out the place from some ethnic people. It would be nice for your politicans to wake up and smell the coffee about some of the mutual help organizations and the like too but at the moment its shutting the barn door after the horses have run off

It would have been nice if there was a way to selectively clean out these cobweb headed prehistoric relics but these people are so poisonous that even if you remove them the next 5 people or so will also be tainted against you.

 

Not to forget, there is also the fact that most of the youngsters from "unwanted" Islamic backgrounds are also told and shown that their own gangs are hated by this this and these "native" gangs. When you look at the attacks and counter attacks between such divided societies, a spark is all that is needed to provide the start. The rest will happen from the normal social tensions by itself. And my countryman are quick to anger and idiots when angry type does not help at all...

Edited May 18, 2009 by cronicler

[Meshugger]

Finland has little to no immigration when it comes to humanitarian reasons. In the private sector however, it is not unusual to take in people from abroad, which i personally encourage as well. I think that this is a sound solution, helping people abroad to help themselves through different huminatarian organizations, and let the market take whatever people they need from abroad if that is the case. What i do not agree upon, is massimmigration because of the happy feeling of being multi-cultural.

 

My problem with multi-culture lies in the very abstract idea on what it tries to achieve. Multi-culture means the absence of any culture, in my case at least. Take Sweden for example, there is Lebanese culture, and Syrian, Iranian, Iraqi, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Greek, Balkanese, Somali culture and so on. When you ask someone the basic question: "Well that's nice. But what is Swedish culture then?", the answer is "it is multi-culture!". This example is grossly simplified, but the point still stands. In the future no one will know how to categorize a swede anymore. One can ask: "What is a typical swede?". Is it a question based on culture? a nation-state? a race? or a combination of all? With multiculture, it will be none of the before mentioned.

 

Bear in mind, in the we are all individuals. But individuals tend to form groups, societies, languages and culture. Culture is the framework where the individual can thrive according to the standards to that particular culture. Or if he or she happens to be an exceptional individual, they might reshape the culture as we know it.

 

What follows of course is how to define "culture". It is language, art, music, law and ethics, formed by the people before you and before that. You notice it with your bodylanguage, how you express your self and how you meet your fellow man. We have the EU, North America, Australia and New Zeeland as the classical western culture, a residue from the enlightment in terms of law, rights and individual freedom. We have the latinamerican culture, which resembles the western one. The same goes with the Oriental ones, such as South Korea and Japan. Just look at their laws and codes of conduct to see the resemblence.

 

Now people claim that Australia and the US are multicultural societies, since these countries have influence of other cultures (some more than the other), but they have enough to define it as their own. The US is an ideal; a nation of free men, that is the US culture. Australia was also once a colony, but still managed to create a culture of its own. I dear even say that they aren't really multicultural as people claim them to be. For example, by following the standards of multiculture: Where are some courts not based on Bengali culture? Why haven't there been more presidents that have had a platform based on nigerian, gypsy or saudi-arabian culture? Why do the US have the same democratic process of electing presidents? Why not a presidential process that is a blend of chinese-indian culture? Why is the main language of popular culture english? Same goes for Australia for that matter.

 

I do not see a multicultural society, rather a western one that have individuals from other cultural backgrounds, but still adhering to the western one. I would call it assimilation to an already existing culture. For example: the christmas tree comes from Germany. Originally it was not decorated as much, and hung from the roof. Still, it was adopted, changed and added to the western culture and becoming an annual ritual in most western socities.

 

Back to immigration. Of all immigration groups, the ones with youthgangs hanging out and harassing the population usually comes from cultures that are most foreign the western one: Namely Subsaharan and middle-eastern. Freedom of expression, social hierarchy and code of conduct is completely different and most of all counterproductive to a stable western society. I can't say i haven't heard about Sikh-gangs or japanese-gangs hanging out and burning thousands of cars like they have done is France.

 

Finally, take a typical Frenchman, a typical Japanese, a typical Namibian, and a typical Turk. How to do you classify them as such? A bit difficult if you ponder long enough.

 

Enough of my rambling. I think i can get a better grasp of it all later in the future.

[Meshugger]

Let me give you the view from a native Turk a bit then.

In the aftermath of WWII there was a very heavy push for low class labor workers. In a very small time period the people who were branded "leftist" or to be more basic, the people who were thinking beyond their immediate time frame were cut off from important areas like education, decision making and general immigrant society both here and there in Eu. Coupled with this was the fact that most of the immigrants were clannish "rural" people.

In the period up to today, we had a lot of problems with radical and takeover minded groups who use islamic motives to hide behind. As you might notice we are going to hell in a hand-basket pretty fast over here. In Eu most people didn't know jack about those manipulative bastards who started teaching their own propaganda in the communities. So after years and years of silent brainwashing (free education for smart kids with brainwashing on top, free "help" in the form of monetary aids and cheap goods, community meetings that has become frighteningly cabalistic...) you have a group of people who are encouraged to make 4 babies a couple at least, who donate their cash to "legal" organizations that aim to "help" Turkey become another Iran (No I am not talking about secessionist Kurdish organizations here).

 

Don't look at me, Some Western governments were so afraid that we would go red, they had most of the progression advocated purged with other evil people like teachers and such while transferring heavy funding and education to Radical Islamics to counter the red threat. Now we are stuck with all the sabotages and the setbacks. A very angry part of me wants to say something stupid like; "Hope you enjoy your own crop of useless parasites" but thats just a primitive reaction.

 

Anyway, As far as I can see, the only solution will be heavy racist policies to clean out the place from some ethnic people. It would be nice for your politicans to wake up and smell the coffee about some of the mutual help organizations and the like too but at the moment its shutting the barn door after the horses have run off

It would have been nice if there was a way to selectively clean out these cobweb headed prehistoric relics but these people are so poisonous that even if you remove them the next 5 people or so will also be tainted against you.

 

Not to forget, there is also the fact that most of the youngsters from "unwanted" Islamic backgrounds are also told and shown that their own gangs are hated by this this and these "native" gangs. When you look at the attacks and counter attacks between such divided societies, a spark is all that is needed to provide the start. The rest will happen from the normal social tensions by itself. And my countryman are quick to anger and idiots when angry type does not help at all...

 

I can see where you are coming from. A friend of mine fled his beloved Istanbul because it had been taken over by "backwards, conservative islamists" during the last decades or so (five to ten million new people IIRC). Progress in his westernized Istanbul has been severly weakened by debates on whether wearing a islamic veil or not.

 

Maybe he overreacted, but i haven't lived there or been there for that matter, so i leave that judjement to him.

[cronicler]

Can't say I blame him. To be honest I can't really see any decent solution without some really drastic measures in the education department. However as long as there is "feel good" and other nonsense crammed into the "public" schools then there won't be any decent way to make the whole culture a whole. Then again how can you "force" education when there are n+3 vultures that are going to play the "victim" card to whore media and other attention.

 

I just wish....

[Humodour]

Turkey seems one of Europe/Mid East's shining beacons. 90 years of secular democracy, NATO member, continually developing, good example for Arabs, etc. The animosity a lot of Europeans have for Turks (Morgoth being a classic example) is almost comical from where I'm standing.

[Morgoth]

Krezzy obviously confuses the "shining beacon" of Turkey with the prehistoric dinosaurs that settle(d) down here in European countries. But of course Krezzy doesn't have to deal with these scumbags that reproduce in high speed and try to undermine our culture on a daily basis. Krezzy rather likes to sit in his comfty Australia pointing with the finger at other people instead and undertanding zilch of the dangerous situation.

It's time for your medicine again, Krezzy.

[Meshugger]

Turkey seems one of Europe/Mid East's shining beacons. 90 years of secular democracy, NATO member, continually developing, good example for Arabs, etc. The animosity a lot of Europeans have for Turks (Morgoth being a classic example) is almost comical from where I'm standing.

 

Strange how those who actually live there differ from your opinion.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Meshugger

[Gorgon]

They treat their ethnic minorities rather poorly. Police brutality is rampant despite it being a democracy, they still have the death penalty, only country in Europe.

 

They definitely have a while to go yet.

[Morgoth]

Let alone how they treat their Christian minority, or how vigirously oppose the construction of churches, while in Europe it can't be fast enough how many mosques we build.

[Meshugger]

+ the whole cyprus debacle, armenian genocide.

 

//EDIT: in terms of the armenian genocide, i am not talking about reparations and whatnot. I am more talking about recognising the event.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Meshugger

[Rosbjerg]

Let alone how they treat their Christian minority, or how vigirously oppose the construction of churches, while in Europe it can't be fast enough how many mosques we build.

 

Can't really say we are any better on that front (DK at least).. There not one Mosque in Denmark, they get allocated to old factories and the likes.. Several attempts to build mosques have been thwarted by locals..

[Morgoth]

Well we have some 260 mosques in Austria, and just last week there was a demo against building a training center for imams and a new mosque in Wien-Brigittenau. But of course the will of the folks always gets repressed, and the politically correct government will press on with the construction.

[Gorgon]

How could you possibly care if there are mosques or training centers for imams or whatnot. I haven't spent 5 minutes considering the existence of the church whose tower I can see from my window. Unless you are looking for some pretext and this isn't really about mosques at all that is.

[Morgoth]

How could you possibly care if there are mosques or training centers for imams or whatnot. I haven't spent 5 minutes considering the existence of the church whose tower I can see from my window. Unless you are looking for some pretext and this isn't really about mosques at all that is.

More islam centers, mosques etc. only create more isolation, not integration. I don't give a rats ass about churches or mosques either, but you start to care if there're imams that get trained to be hate preachers and potential terrorist contacts.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Morgoth

[Gorgon]

You can't detect the prejudice in your statement at all, can you...

[Morgoth]

Better be careful and call the problem by name than always accuse other people of being "prejudiced" or whatever. You know that many bombing attacks are often orgranized by imams?

[Gorgon]

Extremists Imams is one thing to worry about, and I don't know how you qualify that there are 'many' linked to terrorism, another is people demonstrating against freedom of religion.

 

I would prefer having just the one thing to worry about, but that's just me.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Gorgon

[Purkake]

It's going to be extra super special awesome when Turkey gets into the EU. I'm still hoping that the cold will keep the masses at bay. I don't have anything against them per say, but we have enough problems with the Russians.

[Morgoth]

You neither need a church nor a mosque to exert your religion. Neither do we need training centers for imams. How many imams have already been arrested for preaching hate, despising democracy, or even been linked to terrorist organizations? I rather do worry about these potential dangerous subjects, because they're a threat to our safety. Building more mosques and more training centers won't make the situation any better.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Morgoth

[Morgoth]

It's going to be extra super special awesome when Turkey gets into the EU. I'm still hoping that the cold will keep the masses at bay. I don't have anything against them per say, but we have enough problems with the Russians.

Except, this won't happen in the next 20-30 years anyway. Turkey has yet take many steps to be EU-ready, and by the current course, they rather make steps backwards than forward.

[Purkake]

It's going to be extra super special awesome when Turkey gets into the EU. I'm still hoping that the cold will keep the masses at bay. I don't have anything against them per say, but we have enough problems with the Russians.

Except, this won't happen in the next 20-30 years anyway. Turkey has yet take many steps to be EU-ready, and by the current course, they rather make steps backwards than forward.

 

Yeah, that whole genocide thing is a bitch. Then again Estonia was declared "Judenfrei", but at least we were occupied at the time.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Purkake