FO: NV

[Aristes]

Yeah, that sounds like a way to go. If you penalize folks for using VATS, you're going to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

As for the ideas regarding the skill impact on accuracy/damage, why change it at all? It sounds like a lot of work for something that won't matter to the vast majority of gamers. Retooling VATS might be worth it, but if they make VATS unusable, they might as well remove it from the game. I'm not a VATS fan, but that certainly doesn't seem worth it.

 

The skill points problem has much more obvious impact on gameplay and balancing. Personally, they could by and large keep combat the same. Sure, in principle I think ranged attacks should use stats for accuracy with minor bumps for damage. In practice, they'd either have to make the changes so minor that the end user would neither notice nor care or make the changes so significant that folks who've gone through the original game and the DLC will be irritated. I don't think it's worth it in either case. Great general theory from folks who want to show off their mad modding skilz though.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Aristes

[bhlaab]

Yeah, that sounds like a way to go. If you penalize folks for using VATS, you're going to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

As for the ideas regarding the skill impact on accuracy/damage, why change it at all?

 

 

Personally, I don't like the fact that you can pull off awesome shots straight out of the vault. You should start off as a total gimp at level 1-- especially when it comes to headshots and limb crippling since being able to perform those are the so-called carrot on a stick of focusing on guns.

 

One more thing. I'm not sure about this, but I don't think Perception factors into accuracy at all. I'm not sure what it does besides provide the base for stealth skills and put the little red blips on your compass.

That is something that DEFINITELY needs to be fixed in New Vegas: Perception and Charisma being completely and utterly useless.

Edited June 18, 2009 by bhlaab

[Aristes]

Ahh, now I understand. So you don't want folks to front load their mad weapon skills for balance reasons. Makes a bit more sense, then.

[HoonDing]

Imo weapon damage should only be dependent on the condition of the weapon, hence on repair skill. When you're out of the Vault, you normally have a pistol in 100% condition so it's normal you can do a fair amount of damage on petty enemies like Raiders. That's actually how I thought it was until now. *shrug*

 

I can't think of any viable explanation for weapon damage increasing with skill for ballistic weapons.. at least for melee/unarmed one can say that damage increases with skill because as skill increases one gets to know where to hit where it hurts the most..

 

IIRC Morrowind's weapon damage was determined by a roll, the 'to hit' depended mostly on attributes like strength & agility and less on skill - Oblivion turned this around and fixed the weapon damage.

Edited June 18, 2009 by virumor

[bhlaab]

Here are the formulas fallout 3 uses for damage

 

Gun Damage = PerkModifiers(BaseWeaponDamage * DamageMultiplier * GunConditionPenalty * SkillBonus) + CriticalDamageBonus

 

Melee Damage = PerkModifiers(BaseWeaponDamage * DamageMultiplier * MeleeConditionPenalty * SkillBonus + (fAVDMeleeDamageStrengthMult * (fAVDMeleeDamageStrengthOffset + ActorStrengthValue)) + MeleeArmConditionPenalty) + CriticalDamageBonus

 

And here's the gun accuracy formula

 

Spread = PerkModifiers(IronSightsBonus * CrouchBonus * (ConditionPenalty[none in vanilla] + SkillBonus) * (WalkPenalty + RunPenalty) + ArmPenalty)

 

And the problem with me trying to mod it is that the "skill bonus" for melee and weapon damage both share the same variables! Argghh

[Slowtrain]

Here are the formulas fallout 3 uses for damage

 

Gun Damage = PerkModifiers(BaseWeaponDamage * DamageMultiplier * GunConditionPenalty * SkillBonus) + CriticalDamageBonus

 

Melee Damage = PerkModifiers(BaseWeaponDamage * DamageMultiplier * MeleeConditionPenalty * SkillBonus + (fAVDMeleeDamageStrengthMult * (fAVDMeleeDamageStrengthOffset + ActorStrengthValue)) + MeleeArmConditionPenalty) + CriticalDamageBonus

 

And here's the gun accuracy formula

 

Spread = PerkModifiers(IronSightsBonus * CrouchBonus * (ConditionPenalty[none in vanilla] + SkillBonus) * (WalkPenalty + RunPenalty) + ArmPenalty)

 

And the problem with me trying to mod it is that the "skill bonus" for melee and weapon damage both share the same variables! Argghh

 

 

That's awesome.

 

Is armor not factored into gun damage?

 

What is the Damage Multiplier variable?

 

How is the weapon condition varaible derived? Is it a percentage of the weapons's current condition? (Ie a weapon at 50% condition has a value of .5 for a gun condition penalty)

[bhlaab]

To be honest, rather than seperate variables I'd be much happier with Melee accuracy based on skill just like I think weapons should. Pretty much, yeah, just like old fallout. I'd be happy with melee/unarmed misses and also with dodge chance based on agility for all weapons.

[Slowtrain]

if you have skill numbers in a game they have to affect either sccuracy or damage. What else is there?

 

In a first person action game, I would prefer the skills affect damage only, since to me it just feels clunky when you are aiming right at something and keep missing it. That kind of thing (forced misses) works better in a isometric/overhead kind of game.

 

If you have to do it, the variable crosshairs such as in DX is a better way of tying accuracy to skill in a first person action game. It requires a HUD of some sort of course, which might make it a little weird in some game settings.

Edited June 18, 2009 by CrashGirl

[bhlaab]

That's awesome.

 

Is armor not factored into gun damage?

 

What is the Damage Multiplier variable?

 

How is the weapon condition varaible derived? Is it a percentage of the weapons's current condition? (Ie a weapon at 50% condition has a value of .5 for a gun condition penalty)

 

-Armor is a different formula. Weapon damage figures out the number that appears when you're highlighting the weapon in the pipboy (for example, 10mm pistol: 15 DAM)

Armor has a similar number, labelled DR for damage resistance. I haven't checked but I presume that it takes the two formulas and mashes them together to figure out actual damage done.

 

-I'm not quite sure but i think it's just to easily adjust all damage done with one variable. For example, its default is 1.0, and if you wanted to make a cheat mod "ALL WEAPONS DO A BAZILLION DAMAGE" you just set that variable ridiculously high without having to fudge with all the other ones.

 

-fDamageGunWeapCondBase + (fDamageGunWeapCondMult * WeaponCondition)

You're right, 1.0 is 100% repaired and 0.5 is 50%. But there's a little bit more to it than that, with a base value (default 0.5) and a multiplier (also default 0.5)

So a weapon with a condition of 70% affects the damage done within the formula

 

0.5 + (0.5 * 0.75) = 0.875

 

The base is for whether you want the idea of weapon condition to affect things more across the board, and the multiplier is for setting exactly how much you want the condition to affect it

[bhlaab]

if you have skill numbers in a game they have to affect either sccuracy or damage. What else is there?

 

In a first person action game, I would prefer the skills affect damage only, since to me it just feels clunky when you are aiming right at something and keep missing it. That kind of thing (forced misses) works better in a isometric/overhead kind of game.

 

If you have to do it, the variable crosshairs such as in DX is a better way of tying accuracy to skill in a first person action game. It requires a HUD of some sort of course, which might make it a little weird in some game settings.

 

I agree that it does look sillier in a fully realized 3d environment from an Action game perspective, but damn it this is Fallout and any step towards making it play like a fallout game is worth its weight in gold. *raises lighter into the air*

 

It's pretty obvious at this point that we're never going to see an isometric TB one again so I'm willing to forgo the cigar as long as it gets as close as possible

[Slowtrain]

if you have skill numbers in a game they have to affect either sccuracy or damage. What else is there?

 

In a first person action game, I would prefer the skills affect damage only, since to me it just feels clunky when you are aiming right at something and keep missing it. That kind of thing (forced misses) works better in a isometric/overhead kind of game.

 

If you have to do it, the variable crosshairs such as in DX is a better way of tying accuracy to skill in a first person action game. It requires a HUD of some sort of course, which might make it a little weird in some game settings.

 

I agree that it does look sillier in a fully realized 3d environment from an Action game perspective, but damn it this is Fallout and any step towards making it play like a fallout game is worth its weight in gold. *raises lighter into the air*

 

It's pretty obvious at this point that we're never going to see an isometric TB one again so I'm willing to forgo the cigar as long as it gets as close as possible

 

 

I'm not opposed to tying accuracy to skill. Its a pretty traditional way of doing it. It just feels a little clunky to me in some games. FO3 being one of them.

 

Ideally, I'd prefer that neither damage nor accuracy be tied to a skill number in a game like FO3. But if not, then what is the point of the skill number? I suopose you could create some gun handling variables such as reload speed and weapon raise speed and focus speed and tie them all into a skill. Probably that makes more sense really, but who is going to bother when it is so much easier just to tie it to accuracy and damage.

 

Also, thanks for the formula stuff.

 

Just out of curiosity do you happen to know if npcs in Fallout 3 have seperate skills for weapon usage similar to the pc? For example if a raider is carrying a hunting rifle, but then picks up a laser rifle that gets dropped by a dead Outcast, does the raider use a different skill number when firing the laser rifle than he did when using the hunting rifle?

Edited June 19, 2009 by CrashGirl

[Tagaziel]

In a first person action game, I would prefer the skills affect damage only, since to me it just feels clunky when you are aiming right at something and keep missing it. That kind of thing (forced misses) works better in a isometric/overhead kind of game.

 

And isn't it even clunkier to see your guns magically deal more damage as you sink points into a skill?

 

Deus Ex nailed the skill system. And it wasn't even an RPG.

[Slowtrain]

Deus Ex nailed the skill system. And it wasn't even an RPG.

 

Yeah, I pretty much agree. DX did it well.

 

Again, I'd prefer neither damage nor accuracy tied to stats, but that's not going to happen.

[bhlaab]

Just out of curiosity do you happen to know if npcs in Fallout 3 have seperate skills for weapon usage similar to the pc? For example if a raider is carrying a hunting rifle, but then picks up a laser rifle that gets dropped by a dead Outcast, does the raider use a different skill number when firing the laser rifle than he did when using the hunting rifle?

 

Checking right now, it appears so. But things are split up into 3 camps:

 

-Generated based on templates (This is typical for random encounter enemies and people in clearly defined factions such as slavers) Templates are like named characters but can be used to affect multiple people at once.

 

-Auto Calculated, probably for level scaling purposes (This is most named characters, like Bannon in Rivet City) This seems to mean that you can set their Level, and they will automatically decide where to place the skill points they earn. I'm not sure what affect SPECIAL has on auto calc, but I think it might influence what skills are chosen.

 

-and a very few have set in stone skill sets that (afaik) never change ever, like Caleb Smith (who I think is a caravan trader?)

 

So yes.. Bannon, for example, is great at Melee weapons and Bartering (don't know when that comes in handy for him as an NPC...) but he stinks at small guns. His Auto calc also seems to be selected to give him more stimpacks and better armor.

Edited June 19, 2009 by bhlaab

[Aristes]

Ideally, I'd prefer that neither damage nor accuracy be tied to a skill number in a game like FO3. But if not, then what is the point of the skill number? I suopose you could create some gun handling variables such as reload speed and weapon raise speed and focus speed and tie them all into a skill. Probably that makes more sense really, but who is going to bother when it is so much easier just to tie it to accuracy and damage.

 

You would rather have a system in an RPG that relies on player reflexes more than character skills? Brilliant move. You hear sound of distant howls? Those are players who are going to pollory your game. Good luck with that.

 

Character skill should trump player reflexes in an RPG. ...And I've played my share of FPSes, so it's not like I have a hard time running and gunning either. In fact, it's very easy to exploit movement in Oblivion to win combat, especially as a mage or ranged PC. That doesn't mean it's good.

 

I can see the benefit of balancing out the skills in the early game. Fair enough. You can probably improve the game without drawing undue attention. However, the farther you move from character skills, the less of an improvement. Yeah, you might not have liked Fallout 3. Good. I did and I don't want some sort of Frankensteinish monster that tries to use mechanical gymnastics to make my weapon skills useful. Weapon reloading speed? Good God, bro! You don't actually shoot better or do more damage, but you can reload that puppy in a jiff!

 

Of course, none of this addresses the real problem with skills in the first place. I guess it'll all balance out. I'll have six skills at 100 by the end of the game but none of them will really be useful anyhow. CG, you're nuts on this issue.

[bhlaab]

Of course, none of this addresses the real problem with skills in the first place. I guess it'll all balance out. I'll have six skills at 100 by the end of the game but none of them will really be useful anyhow. CG, you're nuts on this issue.

 

*ahem* if i may self advertise...

 

Classic Skill Point Overhaul: http://fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=6984

Classic fallout 1 formula, divided by 2 to compensate for 100 skill limit, then multiplied by 70% to compensate for there only being 13 skills instead of 18

Also tagged skills grow twice as fast and get a 10 point bonus

 

I really hope NV raises the skill ceiling to 200

Edited June 19, 2009 by bhlaab

[Slowtrain]

You would rather have a system in an RPG that relies on player reflexes more than character skills? Brilliant move. You hear sound of distant howls? Those are players who are going to pollory your game. Good luck with that.

 

 

FO3 is 80% shooter and 20% crpg. Maybe 10%. Maybe 5% Anyway, so yes, more player skill less character skill. Far less clunky. Playing FPS combat in Fallout 3 feels like taking a broken down jalopy out for a drive. Sure it gets you there, but its hardly enjoyable.

 

If VATS didn't completely suck, I might not care so much. But VATS does completely suck. So.

 

Actually, I don't really care at all. It would just be my preference.

Edited June 19, 2009 by CrashGirl

[bhlaab]

You would rather have a system in an RPG that relies on player reflexes more than character skills? Brilliant move. You hear sound of distant howls? Those are players who are going to pollory your game. Good luck with that.

 

 

FO3 is 80% shooter and 20% crpg. Maybe 10%. Maybe 5% Anyway, so yes, more player skill less character skill. Far less clunky. Playing FPS combat in Fallout 3 feels like taking a broken down jalopy out for a drive. Sure it gets you there, but its hardly enjoyable.

 

If VATS didn't completely suck, I might not care so much. But VATS does completely suck. So.

 

Actually, I don't really care at all. It would just be my preference.

 

Turning Fallout into a pure fps sounds like the absoloute worst thing a person could do, their heart would have to be coal black and covered with thorny ice.

 

As opposed to making it an rpg/fps hybrid, which requires a grey heart with half-melted nubbed ice

[J.E. Sawyer]

I can't think of any viable explanation for weapon damage increasing with skill for ballistic weapons.. at least for melee/unarmed one can say that damage increases with skill because as skill increases one gets to know where to hit where it hurts the most.

Firearm shot placement tends to matter a lot more than caliber or raw energy.

[bhlaab]

I can't think of any viable explanation for weapon damage increasing with skill for ballistic weapons.. at least for melee/unarmed one can say that damage increases with skill because as skill increases one gets to know where to hit where it hurts the most.

Firearm shot placement tends to matter a lot more than caliber or raw energy.

 

So if you get good enough at shooting a pistol, you can make a shot to the kneecaps damage your opponant just as much as a headshot did when you were bad at it?

 

Anyway, I take that to mean you aren't planning on changing it :\

[jero cvmi]

I can't think of any viable explanation for weapon damage increasing with skill for ballistic weapons.. at least for melee/unarmed one can say that damage increases with skill because as skill increases one gets to know where to hit where it hurts the most.

Firearm shot placement tends to matter a lot more than caliber or raw energy.

not in burst mode, and not with explosive ammo like rockets.

 

and since we're talking about a game that supports called shots, i think a better way to represent how skill affects shot placement which in turn affects damage, would be to make the skill govern the chance to hit or critically hit specific body parts that have better damage tables. it's a fairly good abstraction.

[bhlaab]

I can't think of any viable explanation for weapon damage increasing with skill for ballistic weapons.. at least for melee/unarmed one can say that damage increases with skill because as skill increases one gets to know where to hit where it hurts the most.

Firearm shot placement tends to matter a lot more than caliber or raw energy.

not in burst mode, and not with explosive ammo like rockets.

 

and since we're talking about a game that supports called shots, i think a better way to represent how skill affects shot placement which in turn affects damage, would be to make the skill govern the chance to hit or critically hit specific body parts that have better damage tables. it's a fairly good abstraction.

 

yes exactly

[J.E. Sawyer]

So if you get good enough at shooting a pistol, you can make a shot to the kneecaps damage your opponant just as much as a headshot did when you were bad at it?

I was responding to his suggestion that it makes sense for melee damage to increase because of better blow placement but it doesn't make sense for firearms.

 

Anyway, I take that to mean you aren't planning on changing it :\

Poor inference.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Do you prefer to PLAY games that use systems where the skill level of a given weapon (say small guns or rifles or melee or whatever) affects your accuracy or your damage or both? What I'm getting at is where you think the most fun balance lies between systems found infallout 1 (ie only affects accuracy, damage is purely item based) or deus ex and morrowind where it was primarily accuracy but a little effect on damage (please correct me if I am recalling these wrong) or the systems of say fallout 3 where it was primarily damage being affected with only a small effect on accuracy.

I don't really care what system is used as long as it allows me to build my character how I'd like and the gameplay is enjoyable. I thought the effects of skills on firearm accuracy in Bloodlines (for example) were pretty un-fun. There's something irritating to me about pointing at a wall ten feet away and hitting something 45 degrees off from the center of my crosshairs (it's been a while since I've played Bloodlines, so it might not have been that extreme, but it was nutty). New shooters are inaccurate with handguns, but Bloodlines' implementation both stretched the boundaries of realism (not necessarily top concern for me as a player) and made for frustrating gameplay (biggest issue). I completely disliked Morrowind's melee combat for similar reasons. Actually, that was more bothersome to me than Bloodlines' firearms because in Morrowind you would actually see the weapon hit the target but you'd still miss. Were the gunplay abstracted and removed heavily (as it is in Fallout 1 and 2), it probably wouldn't have been as irritating. F1 and F2's implementation only irritated me with things like flamethrowers at two hexes, but edge cases and wacky weapons will always cause problems unless you just get rid of them, which is sort of like cutting off the nose to spite the face sometimes.

[Wombat]

Relax ladies and gents since J.E. Sawyer is active today.

 

FO3 is 80% shooter and 20% crpg. Maybe 10%. Maybe 5% Anyway, so yes, more player skill less character skill. Far less clunky. Playing FPS combat in Fallout 3 feels like taking a broken down jalopy out for a drive. Sure it gets you there, but its hardly enjoyable.

 

If VATS didn't completely suck, I might not care so much. But VATS does completely suck. So.

 

Actually, I don't really care at all. It would just be my preference.

A move to something like S.T.A.L.K.E.R.? It's actually a hybrid of RPG/FPS, where the players can enhance the abilities of their characters through choosing equipment. The basic design direction is similar to Deus Ex: Invisible War but, IMO, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. managed to do it much better. So, ultimately, it comes down to the balance, I guess. Also, in reality, I don't think Obsidian team will remove the character development system in combat gameplay.

 

That said, there are a few probable cons in choosing the system where character skill matters.

 

1. The invested points to skills cannot be changed compared with equipment, which reduces the range of choices available in the combat gameplay. I know it's by design but quite many combats seem to be involved in FO3.

 

2. Another possible problem with the system of FO3* is that, less influence from scaling can make the game too easy for the players who heavily invested on the combat-related skills. I'm not a fan of Oblivion but it extended favored gameplay options with skill updates while its scaling system doesn't change the difficulty. The downside of this option is, however, as many people complained, that it makes the world feel less consistent. I think this is why the opinions of the players are divided when both systems are compared. * I haven't played FO3, so, this can be pointless.

 

3.

and since we're talking about a game that supports called shots, i think a better way to represent how skill affects shot placement which in turn affects damage, would be to make the skill govern the chance to hit or critically hit specific body parts that have better damage tables. it's a fairly good abstraction.

Some players will not be happy with the lack of well-placed shot through the skill of them, such as a headshot. However, even if the damages are determined by the skill of the characters, the damages/effects can be differentiated depending on which body part is shot, which would make the results include both skills of the characters and the players.

 

PS Well...this thread should be about story and plot...