Archive 1

 

Archive 2

 

Start anew.

There will be blood.

In response to the last post from Fallout: New Vegas Thread (minus the thread is closing post of course)

 

Yeah, yeah, and that same argument could be used for much of the wood in Fallout 3. I fail to see why all these skilled carpenters of the west coast would create all of these dressers and cabinets and let them all degrade as if they were left overs from a bygone era.

 

Thats beside the point. Getting grognard over every piece of furniture and computer is ridiculous. A good story told through computers 'that shouldn't exist anymore' and left over visuals is a good story.

 

If Obsidian wants to tell their story through a meticulously realistic look at a post nuclear holacaust world (which neither original Fallouts were, even if they were more so than F3) or throw computers and wooden cabinets (that should have degraded decades ago) all over the place I'm fine with either method as long as the story is good. Considering Obsidian's track record a good/great story is highly likely.

 

Oh, and by the way, Fallout: Broken Steel is out today so I'm a happy panda. Dogmeat puppy perk ftw!

Edited May 5, 200916 yr by GreasyDogMeat

There will be blood.

I hope so. It wouldn't be Fallout without a bloody mess.

Yeah, yeah, and that same argument could be used for much of the wood in Fallout 3. I fail to see why all these skilled carpenters of the west coast would create all of these dressers and cabinets and let them all degrade as if they were left overs from a bygone era.

 

Funnily, most of the cabinets and dressers that are intact are located in places populated by humans. People who want to maintain their furniture so that they can live?

 

Preposterous!

 

Look in random encounter locations and similiar - those places are truly nuked out and wasted.

 

Fallout 3's problem is that the stuff you mention is TOO commonplace. There's a working computer and lights in every second building, even though they would've broken down in the first two decades after the war.

 

Thats beside the point. Getting grognard over every piece of furniture and computer is ridiculous. A good story told through computers 'that shouldn't exist anymore' and left over visuals is a good story.

 

A good story should be presented in a way that is consistent with the world. And lights working for the past two hundred years, generators working for two centuries and operational computers that have been left out in the rain for two centuries break immersion and instead of enjoying the story, the first feeling is WTF. A prime example is Germantown Police HQ.

A good story should be presented in a way that is consistent with the world. And lights working for the past two hundred years, generators working for two centuries and operational computers that have been left out in the rain for two centuries break immersion and instead of enjoying the story, the first feeling is WTF. A prime example is Germantown Police HQ.

Let's just call it Science!...

 

Seriously, if one applies real-life science, the entire Fallout universe is WTF.

A good story should be presented in a way that is consistent with the world. And lights working for the past two hundred years, generators working for two centuries and operational computers that have been left out in the rain for two centuries break immersion and instead of enjoying the story, the first feeling is WTF. A prime example is Germantown Police HQ.

Let's just call it Science!...

 

Seriously, if one applies real-life science, the entire Fallout universe is WTF.

 

 

There's this thing called suspension of disbelief. Fallout adheres to it. Fallout 3 breaks it over the head with a rolling pin.

There's this thing called suspension of disbelief. Fallout adheres to it. Fallout 3 breaks it over the head with a rolling pin.

 

 

I would agree, although I would argue that Fallout 3 doesn't even try, so its hard to criticize it for failing. It was obviously not a design goal to create a a consistent and believable world. Bethesda obviously made the decision that "fun" overrides everything. Fun is pretty subjective so, its hard to argue with that.

 

I personally think that Fallout 3 would have beem more "fun" for me, personally, had it gone with a somewhat more believable and consistent world, something closer to a simulation rather than a goofy cartoon. But again, where does one draw the line between the two?

You got to stretch reality to make a game somewhere and I'm fine with having a suspiciously large amount of pre-war stuff lying around, whether it be 50 or 200 years after the war.

 

But in FO1/2 each town and settlement had a plausible mechanism for survival and prosperity, with the exception of, say, New Reno. There were farms, Vault City had its GECK, etc. It didn't always make perfect sense and was exaggerated (I mean, how good is that GECK), but at least it kept the game of illusions up. In FO3 there are vague references to 'wandering traders' (which are a pale shadow of the Hub caravan routes and such) and... heck I forget exactly how Little Lamplight subsists (did they explain?), but FO3 makes so little sense on this front that, combined with the huge abundance of pre-war food, just stands out too much while not adding to the story or gameplay at all.

 

Same deal with all that brown; sure the rocky wasteland is a FO trademark, but did the entire FO3 map have to come from the exact same two colour tones and rock types? How exactly would some foliage and nature have hurt the game?

 

It's a question of degrees, and what purpose is being served by these decisions. If reality is bent to an acceptable degree, masked decently in order to serve a specific gameplay/story/setting benefit, yeah, go for it. In this context, asking questions like "but this isn't the real world so what?" or "other games bend reality too right?" makes zero sense.

But in FO1/2 each town and settlement had a plausible mechanism for survival and prosperity, with the exception of, say, New Reno. There were farms, Vault City had its GECK, etc. It didn't always make perfect sense and was exaggerated (I mean, how good is that GECK), but at least it kept the game of illusions up.

 

Minor correction: the Vault City GECK was disassembled over the course of the city's development. In 2241 the city relies on food and other nourishment from food synthesizers using raw materials imported from outside (Parlour Room bartender indicates this is the case). Outsiders in the Courtyard grow their own food to sell and sustain themselves.

Funnily, most of the cabinets and dressers that are intact are located in places populated by humans.

Funnily? There IS nothing else. One of the major weaknesses in Fallout/Fallout 2. You can't explore anything but the places populated by humans! The overland map is useless because it contains nothing but time wasting as you sit and watch the dot creep around the populated zones, interspersed with unbalanced random encounters.

 

This is another one of these blatantly unconsidered criticisms against Fallout 3 only because it is Fallout 3. Both games have the same flaw, only one is more detailed and gets hammered for it.

Funnily? There IS nothing else. One of the major weaknesses in Fallout/Fallout 2. You can't explore anything but the places populated by humans! The overland map is useless because it contains nothing but time wasting as you sit and watch the dot creep around the populated zones, interspersed with unbalanced random encounters.

 

I assume you forgot that the world of Fallout is a nuked out wasteland, so a relatively limited number of explorable locations is only a logical result.

 

You know, it's hard to argue a point with you, since I have to state the obvious. Like Fallout 1 and 2 having a number of explorable locations that are fleshed out plus a large number of various random encounters that are rewards for exploring the world by wandering around (fishermen fending off raiders, Patrick the Celt, BoS patrols, caravans etc. in Fo1 for instance).

 

Seriously, what's your problem?

I assume you forgot that the world of Fallout is a nuked out wasteland, so a relatively limited number of explorable locations is only a logical result.

Thank you Mr. Expert-on-nuclear-wars-and-its-left-overs. And naturally in your eternal wisdom you've judged that Fallout 3 is completely wrong and breaking believability and Fallout/Fallout2 did nothing wrong.

 

I love how you don't see what the problem is and then ask me that same question.. Fantastic.

Funnily? There IS nothing else. One of the major weaknesses in Fallout/Fallout 2. You can't explore anything but the places populated by humans! The overland map is useless because it contains nothing but time wasting as you sit and watch the dot creep around the populated zones, interspersed with unbalanced random encounters.

 

This is another one of these blatantly unconsidered criticisms against Fallout 3 only because it is Fallout 3. Both games have the same flaw, only one is more detailed and gets hammered for it.

 

a) you CAN explore places not populated by humans in all three games. FO3 has a lot more locations than the other two combined, so FO3 has more of these too.

b) the issue with Fo3 was that having a lot of locations was great, and some of them were really interesting, but the 'dungeon-y' character of so many of these locations (i.e. the skeleton with the morphine might be interesting, but all you could DO in most of these areas was just shoot or stealth your way past and get the loot - there weren't areas like the army depots in FO1/2 with different interaction options), and the manual trudging through the wasteland you are doing to find these places, combined to a sense of... chuggish repetition. This wasn't an issue with the originals because the (much fewer) locations were handcrafted and worldmap travel takes seconds.

 

You can argue that it's still better to have a lot of locations and the ability to walk around in the wastelands fer realz, which is fine - I don't agree personally but I think that's a very valid viewpoint. But yeah, that difference is why.

Let's just call it Science!...

 

Seriously, if one applies real-life science, the entire Fallout universe is WTF.

 

ugh. i'd think you'd start to get sick of me posting this, but i guess not:

 

Funnily? There IS nothing else. One of the major weaknesses in Fallout/Fallout 2. You can't explore anything but the places populated by humans! The overland map is useless because it contains nothing but time wasting as you sit and watch the dot creep around the populated zones, interspersed with unbalanced random encounters.

 

This is another one of these blatantly unconsidered criticisms against Fallout 3 only because it is Fallout 3. Both games have the same flaw, only one is more detailed and gets hammered for it.

I dont get it, where is the flaw? I have never played an RPG that had any location that was not

a. populated by people

or

b. populated by beasts

or

c. populated by lewt

 

Fallout 1 & 2 gave emphasis to locations "a", while it had all 3 kinds, and that was good for me, as the most interesting parts of the game were played there, and i mostly play RPGs for the plot.

In fallout 3, there were respectively less people to talk to, and more places to kill beasts and find stuff. so what?

 

I'm not sure i'm getting your point. Can you give an example of a game that got right what you refer to as a flaw?

I... don't think you got what he's saying. The 'flaw' he's talking about is the dressers stuff.

If VATS will be in New Vegas, PLEASE trash that "burnout" slow-mo camera effect. It get's annoying seeing the same sequence after the first 250 times.

Edited May 5, 200916 yr by Syraxis

I'm surprised modders haven't been able to introduce a On/Off (or % of occurrence) toggle yet. I suppose its not just an int value that they can change...but surely Obsids can do it.

I... don't think you got what he's saying. The 'flaw' he's talking about is the dressers stuff.

I got the dressers stuff, it's been thoroughly discussed, let's move on:

 

I'm asking about locations; why is it a weakness that most locations are populated by humans? Which game got this "weakness" right?

Sigh. Look B. was more concerned about getting the whole thing bigger, more, and all that. Thats probably the reason a lot of parts in the game is so jarring and unpolished.

Since when did pointing out things that rusted/not painted/damaged become anathema?

 

Anyway since you guys are intent on shoveling the suggestions under interweb battles, Ill continue with a few more;

 

Detailed character equipment system:

Actually this bit is a sore point since the first fallout game. None of the fallout games have used a detailed inventory / equipment slot system up to this date.

What does your average outdoors man / infantryman wear?

 

Body and Legs:

-Clothing. Preferably suited to the environment you are in.

-Armor. These range from external strap on leg-guards and padded outer clothing to Dragon Skin Class 5 body armors.

-Carry Harness. These are basically extra pockets (read: quickslots) that you wear over your normal dress. These range from Fisherman's wests to Combat harnesses. (Or strap on bags to holsters in case of legs)

 

Head:

-Hats:Protects you from the glare of the sun (Cowboy hats anyone?) or protects your brain from shrapnel (Helmets and so on)

-Headgear: LLVS to NVG's, Flashlights, Random small stuff (like a pack of cigarettes or a small booklet) that is attached to your helmet

-Glasses: "Survival Hobbyist Rant:" One of the things I hate about the Wilderness aspect in games is forgetting these. On a sunny day it can get really hard on the eyes when you are in the middle of a very shinny desert. You need something to protect your eyes if you are going to trek in such places. And no there are other things than glasses too. you can substitute a light see through cloth that you can wear as a blindfold to lessen the glare. Or you could wear the state of the art "pipboy external glass unit" which not only protects your eyes but also shows you the time, records your actions and even shows you the database entries for the stuff you see. The commander's choice for a tight cohorent AAR. Froım Roboco; tools for the future!

 

Foot:

Correct foot gear is the key to the success. You don't want to wear a steel toed and heeled work boots when you are trying to sneak, do you? These could range from soft half boots that allow you to move more silently to comfortable walking boots that allow you to walk a bit faster. Also lets not forget running shoes that allow you to sprint a bit faster and Long Plastic Boots that allow you to cross toxic/harmful terrain (Beware of the fumes thou )

 

Backpacks:

Modern Trekking backpacks with internal supports and straps that fit snugly onto your whole upper body allows people to carry nearly 25% more load in relative comfort. Interestingly the basic design for such modern bags can be traced back to Native Americans, Nomads of the north Europe and central Asia.

 

It would be nice if we can finally see how our guys/gals carry their stuff in this game at last.

Such detailed gear system also opens up new possibilities:

-More gear means more noise. Drop your backpack, store your excess gear and go bad guy hunting maybe?

-Make combat more tactical by restricting players usable equipment to those he carries in his pockets?

-Tie in a detailed skill system with crafting system into the gear system? "Oh look while trying to find if there was anything usable in the remains of that old burnt out computer I some parts of "American History Volume MMMCXXI" It talks about native Indian crafts. Maybe I can make something like the backpacks described there instead of these 2 bed sheet carry-bags I use to haul my loot around..."

 

And 1 MAJOR gripe about the equipment. I can understand Glasses giving me a perception of 4 is my perception is even lower (As mine is in RL) but the whole +1 to this stat or +5 to that skill clothing were a bit too much. Sure I can understand a chick giving you cold shoulder if you are wearing a dusty travel outfit or hitting on you after you take a bath and don your fresh and expensive clothes but do we really need to shout these with "This clothing item gives +5 to speech with officials and townspeople. It also makes you a target with higher priority for pickpockets and back alley thugs."

 

The +Skill Clothing brings us back to the Survival Pack:(The post about it was 2 pages ago)

The game needs some barriers to direct the players way. No one is disputing that fact. However you can do this by putting a complex combination lock that requires some specific tools like a stethoscope and long thin needles when the player has only bobby pins as lockpicks and encourage the player to find better equipment or you can just take the easy way and give the usual error message of "You need X skill for this action"...

Giving the player a basic set of tools to start with then allow him to upgrade his tools by manufacturing them himself with high enough repair and relevant skill (Skill level determines if you can create new designs for the job. Repair level determines if you craft a basic item to access the said action types or some better design that makes your job easier like a more durable tool or whatever) or by just buying/stealing/finding better tools. This way the player can still access some those locked paths without having the "Oh look I have 100% in all skills and stats" problem in the 3rd game.

 

 

Tigranes: I am not entirely sure but I think I remember someone complaining that VATS was pretty much hard coded and changing things about it was a b... was hard. There were a couple of mods that tried to tone down and speed up the Vats but I don't think any of them managed to speed it up beyond a certain speed....

Edited May 5, 200916 yr by cronicler

Detailed equipment - that's a good point. Perhaps the original designers felt that because of the setting and the type of game it is, introducing a large variety of equippable items (and thus introducing a 'monty haul' element) was not really a priority (or appropriate). Additionally, you'd be hard pressed to find non-magical, non-sci fi, reasonable upgrades in such a varied list of equipment when you can't reasonably expect to find 'good' gear in the wastelands anyway.

+1 to the "please god, no more majick clothing" suggestion.

Sigh. Look B. was more concerned about getting the whole thing bigger, more, and all that. Thats probably the reason a lot of parts in the game is so jarring and unpolished.

Since when did pointing out things that rusted/not painted/damaged become anathema?

 

Anyway since you guys are intent on shoveling the suggestions under interweb battles, Ill continue with a few more;

 

Detailed character equipment system:

Actually this bit is a sore point since the first fallout game. None of the fallout games have used a detailed inventory / equipment slot system up to this date.

What does your average outdoors man / infantryman wear?

 

Body and Legs:

-Clothing. Preferably suited to the environment you are in.

-Armor. These range from external strap on leg-guards and padded outer clothing to Dragon Skin Class 5 body armors.

-Carry Harness. These are basically extra pockets (read: quickslots) that you wear over your normal dress. These range from Fisherman's wests to Combat harnesses. (Or strap on bags to holsters in case of legs)

 

Head:

-Hats:Protects you from the glare of the sun (Cowboy hats anyone?) or protects your brain from shrapnel (Helmets and so on)

-Headgear: LLVS to NVG's, Flashlights, Random small stuff (like a pack of cigarettes or a small booklet) that is attached to your helmet

-Glasses: "Survival Hobbyist Rant:" One of the things I hate about the Wilderness aspect in games is forgetting these. On a sunny day it can get really hard on the eyes when you are in the middle of a very shinny desert. You need something to protect your eyes if you are going to trek in such places. And no there are other things than glasses too. you can substitute a light see through cloth that you can wear as a blindfold to lessen the glare. Or you could wear the state of the art "pipboy external glass unit" which not only protects your eyes but also shows you the time, records your actions and even shows you the database entries for the stuff you see. The commander's choice for a tight cohorent AAR. Froım Roboco; tools for the future!

 

Foot:

Correct foot gear is the key to the success. You don't want to wear a steel toed and heeled work boots when you are trying to sneak, do you? These could range from soft half boots that allow you to move more silently to comfortable walking boots that allow you to walk a bit faster. Also lets not forget running shoes that allow you to sprint a bit faster and Long Plastic Boots that allow you to cross toxic/harmful terrain (Beware of the fumes thou )

 

Backpacks:

Modern Trekking backpacks with internal supports and straps that fit snugly onto your whole upper body allows people to carry nearly 25% more load in relative comfort. Interestingly the basic design for such modern bags can be traced back to Native Americans, Nomads of the north Europe and central Asia.

 

It would be nice if we can finally see how our guys/gals carry their stuff in this game at last.

Such detailed gear system also opens up new possibilities:

-More gear means more noise. Drop your backpack, store your excess gear and go bad guy hunting maybe?

-Make combat more tactical by restricting players usable equipment to those he carries in his pockets?

-Tie in a detailed skill system with crafting system into the gear system? "Oh look while trying to find if there was anything usable in the remains of that old burnt out computer I some parts of "American History Volume MMMCXXI" It talks about native Indian crafts. Maybe I can make something like the backpacks described there instead of these 2 bed sheet carry-bags I use to haul my loot around..."

 

And 1 MAJOR gripe about the equipment. I can understand Glasses giving me a perception of 4 is my perception is even lower (As mine is in RL) but the whole +1 to this stat or +5 to that skill clothing were a bit too much. Sure I can understand a chick giving you cold shoulder if you are wearing a dusty travel outfit or hitting on you after you take a bath and don your fresh and expensive clothes but do we really need to shout these with "This clothing item gives +5 to speech with officials and townspeople. It also makes you a target with higher priority for pickpockets and back alley thugs."

 

The +Skill Clothing brings us back to the Survival Pack:(The post about it was 2 pages ago)

The game needs some barriers to direct the players way. No one is disputing that fact. However you can do this by putting a complex combination lock that requires some specific tools like a stethoscope and long thin needles when the player has only bobby pins as lockpicks and encourage the player to find better equipment or you can just take the easy way and give the usual error message of "You need X skill for this action"...

Giving the player a basic set of tools to start with then allow him to upgrade his tools by manufacturing them himself with high enough repair and relevant skill (Skill level determines if you can create new designs for the job. Repair level determines if you craft a basic item to access the said action types or some better design that makes your job easier like a more durable tool or whatever) or by just buying/stealing/finding better tools. This way the player can still access some those locked paths without having the "Oh look I have 100% in all skills and stats" problem in the 3rd game.

 

 

Tigranes: I am not entirely sure but I think I remember someone complaining that VATS was pretty much hard coded and changing things about it was a b... was hard. There were a couple of mods that tried to tone down and speed up the Vats but I don't think any of them managed to speed it up beyond a certain speed....

 

 

If you haven't, you should Jagged Alliance 2 with the 1.13 mod.

Actually it is a bit different than no more +skill clothing (And yes I am opposed to clothing that gives bonus to stats. Penalty? Sure but stat bonuses other that Powered1 Armors extra carry capacity and strength enhancements.) But clothes that modify the "effective" skill levels or social reactions are a bit more acceptable. Just not with a heavy handed approach that FO3 took.

 

I can accept there are clothing types that are more appropriate to certain social situations by blending in like wearing a prospector / desert rat clothing when in a bar filled with such types or not wearing such clothes when you are trying to give the impression that you are an important or wealthy a.hole.

On the other hand wearing dark colors and duct tapeing all your equipment down does make you more stealthy compared to doing it with regular gear. On the other hand a guy with a sharp mind can understand how these improvements are effective and can be done after facing them once. Leave your backpack and spare equipment in a secure location, tie down your loose gear and go bad guy hunting.

I am ok with minor but creative bonuses that stack: By talking to and listening to people you find out that Lady X likes man with feodoras. You gather up some nice **** Tracy clothing, complete with a feodora and handkerchief and meet the said Lady in a social gathering. Since you are like a dream that has come from her fantasies, Her first reactions should be more positive. The rest still depends on your silver tongue

 

Also on this topic, I really want to see some drawbacks associated with items and gear. Sure ductaping your gear makes you more stealthy but it also makes you look ridiculous. A ghilie suit makes you nearly impossible to spot at X meters visually depending on your outdoorsman skill. There are real life maniacs (Usually ccalled special operation branch snipers ) who are so adept at camouflage that you literally need to step on them or their hideout to spot them. On the other hand moving silently in a deployed G. suit is very hard. the thing just catches on every available outcropping. Ever seen a women in a bodyglove like dress try to move quickly? :D

 

The game is already based on a small scale for the skill checks. we don't really need to lower down the required skills as much as 3rd game.

 

Edit: Sorry Scope but i prefer to do my sniping myself and have Buzz as backup . Have you managed to get over the Drassen Counter attack at day 1 or 2 without cheesing out btw?

Edited May 5, 200916 yr by cronicler