EA Closes One BioWare/Pandemic Studio

[Morgoth]

If you realy think that the securom deal was less than few millions you are pretty naive and you can bet EA expected at least double if not triple the sales on PC

Hey, puplishers always expect too much. They always want more.

 

But seriously. Mass Effect was done. Development, VO, marketing. All done. EA "only" needed to deal with the conversion (no, actually, even Bioware handled that on their own), distribution and (of course!) the multi-million copy protection deal. Whatever.

 

 

Even DA was completely financed internally by Bioware. They never needed a publisher until the very end (VO work, production stuff). That shows me that Bio on it's own did pretty well, and that EA virtually didn't have to pay huge chunks for the development for DA. Both EA and Bio wins in that deal (again).

Edited January 15, 2009 by Morgoth

[Morgoth]

reading this thread is like business management for the insane.

That's North Korean MBA wisdom!

[Mamoulian War]

You are forgetting that they invested 800 million into ME PC and DAO IP's so they pretty much covered all Bioware's developing costs

Edited January 15, 2009 by Mamoulian War

[kirottu]

I don't think ME did near as well as expected. They probably broke even, but that's about it. Compare their numbers to Assassin's Creed, which came out at the same time, AC probably did at least twice the business. Also Bio didn't get married, they got bought. They don't exist as a legal entity.

ME sold 2,5 million units on the 360 alone. Add the PC sales, and you have 3 million. Now don't tell me those aren't good numbers.

 

When we were discussing did Jade Empire sell well Sawyer said that AAA titles need to sell about 1 million units to make profit/break even. So, yeah, I would say those are good numbers.

[Morgoth]

You are forgetting that they invested 800 million into ME PC and DAO IP's so they pretty much covered all Bioware's developing costs

No. They invested 800 millions into Bioware-Pandemic (the talent, the infrastructure, the assets) plus all properties owned by these two. You can argue whether that was a good deal or not, but for some reason, Johnny Riccitello thought it was. Not our problem, not Bioware's problem.

 

Bioware now can even take more money as they please. Plus all the benefits (facilities, ressources, knowledge) they can share by being part of EA.

 

Seems like Bio knows it's shyt.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Morgoth

[Morgoth]

I don't think ME did near as well as expected. They probably broke even, but that's about it. Compare their numbers to Assassin's Creed, which came out at the same time, AC probably did at least twice the business. Also Bio didn't get married, they got bought. They don't exist as a legal entity.

ME sold 2,5 million units on the 360 alone. Add the PC sales, and you have 3 million. Now don't tell me those aren't good numbers.

 

When we were discussing did Jade Empire sell well Sawyer said that AAA titles need to sell about 1 million units to make profit/break even. So, yeah, I would say those are good numbers.

Indeed. 1 million is the magical number that makes the boss smile. Everything above, and you might even end up getting a hug.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Morgoth

[Hurlshort]

You are forgetting that they invested 800 million into ME PC and DAO IP's so they pretty much covered all Bioware's developing costs

No. They invested 800 millions into Bioware-Pandemic (the talent, the infrastructure, the assets) plus all properties owned by these two. You can argue whether that was a good deal or not, but for some reason, Johnny Riccitello thought it was. Not our problem, not Bioware's problem.

 

 

QFT. This is a long term investment for EA. They don't expect to make 800 million off one or two titles with this relationship. I'd guess EA expects to have made that 800 million back around the time KotOR online hits.

 

I'd be more interested in hearing what EA will do to Mythic, since Warhammer Online seems to have stalled out pretty hard after its launch. That will be a good indicator of how they will handle Bioware down the line if the bleep hits the fan.

[Morgoth]

You are forgetting that they invested 800 million into ME PC and DAO IP's so they pretty much covered all Bioware's developing costs

No. They invested 800 millions into Bioware-Pandemic (the talent, the infrastructure, the assets) plus all properties owned by these two. You can argue whether that was a good deal or not, but for some reason, Johnny Riccitello thought it was. Not our problem, not Bioware's problem.

 

 

QFT. This is a long term investment for EA. They don't expect to make 800 million off one or two titles with this relationship. I'd guess EA expects to have made that 800 million back around the time KotOR online hits.

 

I'd be more interested in hearing what EA will do to Mythic, since Warhammer Online seems to have stalled out pretty hard after its launch. That will be a good indicator of how they will handle Bioware down the line if the bleep hits the fan.

Hmm. the worst thing that could happen is if they shut down Bioware Austin if SWTOR fails. Then the docotrs would pick them up and merge/assimilate those who want to move to Edmonton into Bio Edmonton. But I doubt both studios get shut down for that.

 

And hey, I thought WAR has some 1 million active subscribers? Isn't that supposed to be brilliant?

Edited January 15, 2009 by Morgoth

[Volourn]

"And no, 2 million is about break even"

 

L0LZ

 

 

"you do know that EA has not seen a single dime from the Xbox release?"

 

O RLY? You do realize that EA owns BIo, right? This means any money that the 'company' BIO has or sees is EA's as well, right?

 

 

 

"They don't expect to make 800 million off one or two titles with this relationship"

 

The problem, though, is that accoridng to the sales press release, EA expects BIO-Pandemic to release quite a few games within the next 5 years.

 

 

"and you can bet EA expected at least double if not triple the sales on PC"

 

Riiiight.... because, publishers know that PC versions of console games sale more than their console counterparts by that much - espicially when it comes out months after.... The logic here is astounding.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Volourn

[Hurlshort]

I was under the impression that, much like Age of Conan, WAR is hemorrhaging subscribers. I know they are doing a ton of server mergers. Maybe they have a better business plan than the AoC crew and can handle the subscriber drop, I'm not sure.

[Morgoth]

I was under the impression that, much like Age of Conan, WAR is hemorrhaging subscribers. I know they are doing a ton of server mergers. Maybe they have a better business plan than the AoC crew and can handle the subscriber drop, I'm not sure.

Yeah, I didn't really follow AoC/WAR too much lately, but it seems many players are returning to WOW. AoC has a lot of server mergers going on, but I think WAR is still doing (relatively) well, even though it's hardly the WoW killer that Mythic hoped for.

 

For SWTOR, Bioware needs to attract people that aren't so much into Wow, lest having the same effect like WAR (people returning to WoW after 1-2 months). I guess they hope to get the Kotor fans into the fold, and Star Wars fans in general. At least TOR doesn't try to pull a WoW, so they just might succeed in their endeavor.

 

Edit: Man all these typos. No single post without editing I guess lol.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Morgoth

[aries101]

Where did you do your MBA, North Korea?

 

North Korean MBAs are very prestigious.

 

I would argue with Volourn about this issue, but I don't have any confidence in emerging victorious, so I'll just RUN LIKE HELL

 

Also, is EA's ownership of Bioware total? I think it is?

 

Yes, it is.

 

But apparently EA hasn't got a clue about what is going on:

 

http://dragonage.bioware.com/forums/viewto...m=135&sp=60

 

From Lethlar's post in the above thread:

 

Unfortunately, we do not have any idea of the game you are referring. The game "Dragon Age : Origins" is not an EA game.

 

And the chief of EA thinks that DA: Origins is a 'game about dragons' I hope someone did get him the memo or emailed him...

 

Then Ashi984 wrote this:

 

We should be grateful that EA is being kept so far out of the development they don't even know what it is though.

 

 

For this, I too, am very grateful.

 

When I fist read this I was and and

 

But then I realized that this is actually a good thing; it means that EA isn't controlling anything at Bioware at all....

 

EA closing Pandemics branch in Brisbane, Australia is about the same as Carlsberg closing its brewery in a small town near Copenhagen to move all of the production lines for beer etc. to one town in Jutland, Denmark. It is, of clourse, bad for the people it will affect, but necessary, I think, in these financial times.

[Mamoulian War]

"you do know that EA has not seen a single dime from the Xbox release?"

 

O RLY? You do realize that EA owns BIo, right? This means any money that the 'company' BIO has or sees is EA's as well, right?

 

You know that 80-90% of ME Xbox sales was before Bio was bought up right?

[Wrath of Dagon]

When we were discussing did Jade Empire sell well Sawyer said that AAA titles need to sell about 1 million units to make profit/break even. So, yeah, I would say those are good numbers.

Jade was a last gen game. I bet ME cost quite a bit more than Jade. And really AAA game costs can vary widely, GTA4 supposedly cost over 100 mil, and Shenmue was supposed to be 80 mil way back when.

[Morgoth]

"you do know that EA has not seen a single dime from the Xbox release?"

 

O RLY? You do realize that EA owns BIo, right? This means any money that the 'company' BIO has or sees is EA's as well, right?

 

You know that 80-90% of ME Xbox sales was before Bio was bought up right?

Bioware also made a considerable chunk of profit margins out of the 360 deals, and that money is now also EA's money.

[Morgoth]

Where did you do your MBA, North Korea?

 

North Korean MBAs are very prestigious.

 

I would argue with Volourn about this issue, but I don't have any confidence in emerging victorious, so I'll just RUN LIKE HELL

 

Also, is EA's ownership of Bioware total? I think it is?

 

Yes, it is.

 

But apparently EA hasn't got a clue about what is going on:

 

http://dragonage.bioware.com/forums/viewto...m=135&sp=60

 

From Lethlar's post in the above thread:

 

Unfortunately, we do not have any idea of the game you are referring. The game "Dragon Age : Origins" is not an EA game.

 

And the chief of EA thinks that DA: Origins is a 'game about dragons' I hope someone did get him the memo or emailed him...

 

Then Ashi984 wrote this:

 

We should be grateful that EA is being kept so far out of the development they don't even know what it is though.

 

 

For this, I too, am very grateful.

 

When I fist read this I was and and

 

But then I realized that this is actually a good thing; it means that EA isn't controlling anything at Bioware at all....

 

EA closing Pandemics branch in Brisbane, Australia is about the same as Carlsberg closing its brewery in a small town near Copenhagen to move all of the production lines for beer etc. to one town in Jutland, Denmark. It is, of clourse, bad for the people it will affect, but necessary, I think, in these financial times.

Probably some european EA branch that didn't get the memo?

 

Seriously. DA is completely in Bioware's hands. They have the facilities and marketing team to handle their baby on their own. They don't need to be babysitted by EA.

But EA is still needed for the legal stuff, the VO work outside of English, the distribution. They surely have to have a clue by now that DA will be released soon?

Edited January 15, 2009 by Morgoth

[alanschu]

Where did you get those numbers? And no, 2 million is about break even, depending on how much the game cost to make.

 

Edit: Pandemic made Full Spectrum Warrior, which was very good. Destroy all Humans and Mercenaries are supposed to be good too, but I haven't played them.

 

 

I know you hate the game and all, but don't start going off and spouting off random numbers now.

[alanschu]

If you realy think that the securom deal was less than few millions you are pretty naive and you can bet EA expected at least double if not triple the sales on PC

 

 

So what you're saying is you like to make stuff up?

[mkreku]

ME sold 2,5 million units on the 360 alone. Add the PC sales, and you have 3 million. Now don't tell me those aren't good numbers.

When we were discussing did Jade Empire sell well Sawyer said that AAA titles need to sell about 1 million units to make profit/break even. So, yeah, I would say those are good numbers.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/tomb-rai...-sales-hit-1-5m

 

Apparently not always.

[Mamoulian War]

Where did you get those numbers? And no, 2 million is about break even, depending on how much the game cost to make.

 

Edit: Pandemic made Full Spectrum Warrior, which was very good. Destroy all Humans and Mercenaries are supposed to be good too, but I haven't played them.

 

 

I know you hate the game and all, but don't start going off and spouting off random numbers now.

 

nope that is simple math...

 

try counting with me...

 

my development costs are 25 millions (i bet that the number was bigger but we leave it down at this)

 

add the marketing costs (i will be low again and say 1 million)

 

how many gameboxes do you have to sell to get the money back?

[Morgoth]

Now this is getting interesting. *gets the popcorn*

[alanschu]

Where did you get those numbers? And no, 2 million is about break even, depending on how much the game cost to make.

 

Edit: Pandemic made Full Spectrum Warrior, which was very good. Destroy all Humans and Mercenaries are supposed to be good too, but I haven't played them.

 

 

I know you hate the game and all, but don't start going off and spouting off random numbers now.

 

nope that is simple math...

 

try counting with me...

 

my development costs are 25 millions (i bet that the number was bigger but we leave it down at this)

 

add the marketing costs (i will be low again and say 1 million)

 

how many gameboxes do you have to sell to get the money back?

 

 

Your development costs?

 

What are you basing your estimates on?

 

Otherwise you're still just making up numbers. Why is marketing at $1 million low?

[Slowtrain]

ME sold 2,5 million units on the 360 alone. Add the PC sales, and you have 3 million. Now don't tell me those aren't good numbers.

When we were discussing did Jade Empire sell well Sawyer said that AAA titles need to sell about 1 million units to make profit/break even. So, yeah, I would say those are good numbers.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/tomb-rai...-sales-hit-1-5m

 

Apparently not always.

 

 

Eventually, devs and publishers are going to realize it works better to keep the budgets down for game titles, rather than flinging lots of poo against a wall and hoping they have a giant seller.

 

Its like staying fit: its better to have some discpline and stick with a solid and well thought out diet and add some small amoubnt of physical exercise on top of that. Rather than eating a ton of junk all day and then spending 4 hours in the gym trying to burn it all off.

 

A litle restraint and discpline goes a long way toward success.

 

 

I find it difficult to believe that anyone sane would expect to sell that many copies of a fading franchise title like Tomb Raider XXX.

[Volourn]

"You know that 80-90% of ME Xbox sales was before Bio was bought up right?"

 

Doesn't matter. BIO's profit is EA's profit. The moment EA purchased BIO they got all monies, properties, and everything else including the company toilet paper.

 

 

"Apparently not always."

 

Nowhere in your link does it state that the game in question didn't break even or make a profit. Just that it didn't meet (the very likely super high) expectations. TWO hugely different things. A series like Tomb Raider is likely expected to sell more is all.

 

 

P.S. Marketing at 1 mil is probably higher than most games get for sure. And, $25mil is probably at the high end of devlopmental costs too. I have a hard time believing that game would cost $100mil to make so if that's what GTA4 cost to make, WOW! I'll have to play it just to see what a $100mil game looks and plays like. L0L

Edited January 15, 2009 by Volourn

[Morgoth]

ME sold 2,5 million units on the 360 alone. Add the PC sales, and you have 3 million. Now don't tell me those aren't good numbers.

When we were discussing did Jade Empire sell well Sawyer said that AAA titles need to sell about 1 million units to make profit/break even. So, yeah, I would say those are good numbers.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/tomb-rai...-sales-hit-1-5m

 

Apparently not always.

Ah, another great example how publisher like to screw around. They sell 1,5 million units, and as a result they lay off 30 people plus want to make Lara now attractive to girl gamers. Great thinking!