Mass Effect 2 to appear in GDC

[Wrath of Dagon]

Well, Telos station is one of the weakest areas in K2, so yes, it's somewhat reminiscent of that, although even Telos had a lot more going on. The problem with the Citadel it's just bland, empty, there are no real points of interest, and it looks like a mall instead of a galactic capital build by an ancient race. The other story planets are small, linear, and generally very repetitive, with nothing interesting to see. As far as shooter gameplay, there are no features in the level design to make combat interesting. It's a bit hard to explain, but if you played great shooters like Half Life 2 or Return to Castle Wolfenstein you should be able to see what I mean. Also some levels have a lot of pointless empy areas, and doors, lots and lots of doors you have to keep going through. As for Uncharted Worlds, yes they're optional, but so poorly and amateurishly done it's an insult to the player. I didn't think a respected developer like Bioware would have the nerve to copy and paste the same awful area 35 times, only changing the rock color and crate locations!

[Maria Caliban]

... That's still not level design, that's more to do environment artwork, the complaint being the lack there of.

 

"The visuals didn

[Meshugger]

Not a suprise, considering that ME is supposed to be a trilogy.

 

The art direction was really bland, as wrath of dagon said, the citadel looked more like a mall than an intergalactic space station. The level design was solid, as it made sure that the gameplay had a certain flow, but it was nothing extraordinary. The mako missions were really boring and uninspiring as well. ME did have pretty good VO, soundtrack production values, but since the story and characters were so bland, it didn't manage to keep my interest high enough. I the end, i just wanted to end it. As far as roleplaying goes, the options were many. But again, simply uninteresting.

 

ME2 has a lot to improve upon.

[Gromnir]

never depend on wiki... for anything. wiki definitions is, at best, a tertiary source. wiki sources is not fact checked and they can be authored by virtual any clown with an internet connection. some fat junior college drop-out, sitting in his mom's basement, nursing a big gulp and wearing a sweat stained ac/dc t-shirt, may be the guy you is depending on for accurate information 'bout The Constitution of the United States of America, or the side-effects of Oxycontin?

 

...

 

am not sure what is level design. seems to have a fluid definition depending on the speaker. that being said, Gromnir rarely sees developers reference aesthetic concerns when discussing level design.

 

example: some folks here has seen Gromnir give josh a hard time... from time to time. HA! one such instance were our rather acerbic and critical posts regarding HoW. a cobbled together game that were little more than a tedious sequence o' s-shaped maps filled with repetitive monster encounters. terrible level design. the wailing virgins and drowned dead looked kewl... and as usual the artwork in most locations were beyond reproach, but when Gromnir criticized level design, and when josh responded to such criticisms, we weren't talking aesthetics. how is gameplay features and encounters organized so as to increase/decrease challenge and or enjoyment? sounds like level design how we seen used most often.

 

that being said, is a bit like distinction 'tween strategy and tactics: is largely illusory and semantic. at some point accumulated tactical concerns become a matter o' strategy... or vice versa. if stale look o' citadel makes encounters makes gameplay more tedious for people, then ain't that level design even though it not seem to fit Gromnir's definition? regardless, am not sure if it is worth fighting over the distinction 'tween what is and is not level design. if speaker and audience both understand the criticism, then what is point in arguing whether or not is actually level design v. art, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nightshape]

... That's still not level design, that's more to do environment artwork, the complaint being the lack there of.

 

"The visuals didn

Edited January 9, 2009 by Nightshape

[Wrath of Dagon]

Can you please name one very clever thing about the Citadel?

 

Edit: IMO, great level design needs a theme. One of the problems with ME levels none really had a strong and sustained theme.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Nightshape]

My experience tells me you're hammering level design when you mean ART DIRECTION.

 

I personally see clever things as something quite different, the citadel has streaming zones wherever possible, When you enter a lift another area is streamed into memory. That is a "Clever" solution to help aid the level design. It isn't an inherant level design feature.

 

As for the level design itself, I personally got the impression that the citadel was infact HUGE, but the player is only exposed to a few key area's... For me personally they achieved that result by making the level area's they did have fairly large in terms of scope. The citadel was clearly not designed as a play area for shoot outs. As the environments are scaled beyond there requirements you could argue that that actually has a negative impact on the area in regards to how efficiant it is to traverse the citadel, but short cuts are presented as are directions, so that is fairly moot.

 

I can agree with how alot of people feel about how the place looks sterile, personally I liked that about it, underpopulated? Likely a restriction of the engine itself. As an area for quests it's fairly poor, but it does certainly fit within the story.

 

So what is so negative, why does the citadel suck?

[Morgoth]

A theme, a purpose...that's the key. The point is that ME's level design was kept to an minimum. Sure, there were all necessary entities and actors to advance the story, but it was all so abstract...like a movie set. It didn't felt like a real place. There was neither architectual/artistic glory in the places, nor any way to provide some exploration.

[Wrath of Dagon]

As an area for quests it's fairly poor, but it does certainly fit within the story.

 

So what is so negative, why does the citadel suck?

Your previous sentence answers your question, it's sucks as an area for quests. Everything should be used to reinforce the theme, the gameplay, the level design, and the artwork. I would consider art design to be part of the level design, and again it's crucial that different elements work together and reinforce each other. On the Citadel, everything is kind of pointless. Fitting within the story is a minimum requirement, and clever technical solutions is not something the player really cares about, not that slow elevators seem particularly clever to me.

[Nightshape]

A theme, a purpose...that's the key. The point is that ME's level design was kept to an minimum. Sure, there were all necessary entities and actors to advance the story, but it was all so abstract...like a movie set. It didn't felt like a real place. There was neither architectual/artistic glory in the places, nor any way to provide some exploration.

 

The theme of an area is part of the Art Directors role, the actual building blocks of it is the level designers role, and the asset content is an environmental artists role.

 

I am not actually disagreeing or agreeing with exact issues, I'm just trying to inform people of roles as structure within the games industry.

 

It's like pointing a finger at the wrong person as the cause of a problem... It's actually someone else who's screwed up.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Well, it's someone's fault since they're all supposed to work together. And yes, I'm aware of all the excuses why the game turned out the way that it did, but that hardly changes the outcome.

[Morgoth]

A theme, a purpose...that's the key. The point is that ME's level design was kept to an minimum. Sure, there were all necessary entities and actors to advance the story, but it was all so abstract...like a movie set. It didn't felt like a real place. There was neither architectual/artistic glory in the places, nor any way to provide some exploration.

 

The theme of an area is part of the Art Directors role, the actual building blocks of it is the level designers role, and the asset content is an environmental artists role.

 

I am not actually disagreeing or agreeing with exact issues, I'm just trying to inform people of roles as structure within the games industry.

 

It's like pointing a finger at the wrong person as the cause of a problem... It's actually someone else who's screwed up.

You don't need to tell me about defining roles about creating environments.... I know that the level designer is responsible for all the scripting, placeables and the general layout that serves gameplay purposes etc.

The point is just, that this get's a bit blurry in ME, or it seems to me that the envirionment artist just took over the role of the level design as well. As I said, like a movie set, it's functual, but it doesn't offer any interesting gameplay. This is very critical for FPS. Why not for RPGs? Just look how well the maps in HL2, Bioshock etc. come together. It's truly a shining example of how well designer and artists can work together. Bioware has still a lot to learn in that regard.

[Nightshape]

Well, it's someone's fault since they're all supposed to work together. And yes, I'm aware of all the excuses why the game turned out the way that it did, but that hardly changes the outcome.

 

I actually like the game alot, it ranks as one of my favourite.

 

My point is more, don't hammer a level designer for something outside of his control, and his job description, it's kinda like saying it's the rendering programmers fault because an orginal art asset is crap ya know?

 

The citadel isn't a major quest area until the end of the game, it's more a tutorial area with a slow story introduction.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, I think you're wrong and Mass Effect is infact a really good game, but ya know that's all well and good I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. Fact is... If anything it does suffer from bad art direction.

 

Bioware is likely to suffer more and more now that it's part of EA.

[Nightshape]

A theme, a purpose...that's the key. The point is that ME's level design was kept to an minimum. Sure, there were all necessary entities and actors to advance the story, but it was all so abstract...like a movie set. It didn't felt like a real place. There was neither architectual/artistic glory in the places, nor any way to provide some exploration.

 

The theme of an area is part of the Art Directors role, the actual building blocks of it is the level designers role, and the asset content is an environmental artists role.

 

I am not actually disagreeing or agreeing with exact issues, I'm just trying to inform people of roles as structure within the games industry.

 

It's like pointing a finger at the wrong person as the cause of a problem... It's actually someone else who's screwed up.

You don't need to tell me about defining roles about creating environments.... I know that the level designer is responsible for all the scripting, placeables and the general layout that serves gameplay purposes etc.

The point is just, that this get's a bit blurry in ME, or it seems to me that the envirionment artist just took over the role of the level design as well. As I said, like a movie set, it's functual, but it doesn't offer any interesting gameplay. This is very critical for FPS. Why not for RPGs? Just look how well the maps in HL2, Bioshock etc. come together. It's truly a shining example of how well designer and artists can work together. Bioware has still a lot to learn in that regard.

 

I shouldn't have directed that at you sorry.

 

I think Bioware have a shed load to learn, like not jumping in bed with EA. That said, I don't think they did a terrible job, alot of the set piece's are done very well.

[Morgoth]

I don't think the EA/Bioware combo is bad. Bioware enjoys a lot of autonomy within the EA group - the Doctors just make sure to keep John Riccitello drugged.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Well, it's someone's fault since they're all supposed to work together. And yes, I'm aware of all the excuses why the game turned out the way that it did, but that hardly changes the outcome.

 

I actually like the game alot, it ranks as one of my favourite.

 

My point is more, don't hammer a level designer for something outside of his control, and his job description, it's kinda like saying it's the rendering programmers fault because an orginal art asset is crap ya know?

 

The citadel isn't a major quest area until the end of the game, it's more a tutorial area with a slow story introduction.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, I think you're wrong and Mass Effect is infact a really good game, but ya know that's all well and good I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. Fact is... If anything it does suffer from bad art direction.

 

Bioware is likely to suffer more and more now that it's part of EA.

I'm not hammering the level designer, I'm hammering the game. I don't know who did what and why, all I know is the final product. And yes, if you look at Maria's post about what constitutes level design, all of that is badly done in ME. As far as you liking the game a lot, so what, some people like to be whipped, what does that prove? You haven't given any real reasons so far why you like the game, while I explained why I don't like it.

[Azure79]

I thought ME was rather bland. Its a good game, but it lacked character. All I really remember from ME is the endless barren planets with the cut and paste caves/spaceships/missions. I kept visiting all the optional planets hoping I'd run into something interesting, but all I got was the exact same cave or building or spaceship with the exact same layout and mysteriously all filled with boxes of stuff. I usually play Bioware games multiple times, but nothing seems to be pulling me back to ME.

 

There were some interesting tidbits here and there and I liked the choices that you made along the way concerning fates of NPCs and such, but it doesn't merit starting a new game.

 

The main storyline was enjoyable, although pretty short. I'm looking forward to the next installment because I want to see how the massive lurking threat will be dealt with. I'm also hoping for less planets with more things to do on them.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Aw, come on. BioWare only included the mass of generic planets to please all those "explorer" players who like crawling through millions of same-looking caves gathering loot. If they hadnt included them, you numbnuts would be complaining about how the game was too linear and un-freeroaming.

 

 

ME is the best game ever to come out of BioWare, and probably the best they will ever make short of ME2.

[Morgoth]

My prediction is very positive: DA will own every past Bio title (including BG2), and ME2 shall be an improvement over ME.

[Wrath of Dagon]

@Kaftan

So your theory is the Uncharted Worlds were added so that the rest of the crappy game looks good by comparison?

Edited January 9, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Calax]

@Kaftan

So your theory is the Uncharted Worlds were added so that the rest of the crappy game looks good by comparison?

no, his theory is that the uncharted worlds were put in because a large sect of the RPG gamers enjoy running off to wherever and seeing if that place has loot regardless if there is a reason behind going there.

 

As to the citadel and the level design/art direction tomfoolery, I think that the Citadel was an ok quest hub. If you knew how to do things you could do everything in one or two loops through the place. Could it have been compressed? probably. It did get overly large, and it seemed like the devs were trying to convey that what you were running around in was just a very small percentage of the actual station. Their attempt while valiant didn't come off so well because the size of the areas you had to run around in led to a lot of dead area. After going through the game several times, I noticed that almost every area within the citadel was actually used in various quests, but the problem is that half the area was only used on the first go, with the other half being right before you took off to Iilos, or on your second arrival.

[Niten_Ryu]

World of ME is definately sterile and I think it's designed that way (maybe because they wanted to or maybe because schedule or resource issues). You get the feeling of small nanobots breaking down the small rubble, collecting dust particles, shining and fixing the worn surfaces. I'm not a fan of Star Trek and never been one but I've seen few episodes of various series of that show and I get the same feeling of it too. Everything is sterile, organzied and clean.

 

While it don't make the most interesting world IMO, in some strange way it still works. I have to admit that world aspect of ME didn't open for me with one run, but took total of 3 runs (normal, heroic, insane difficulty levels). During the first run I didn't care about characters, world, environments or the writing. But because I found combat mechancs to be fun, I wanted to play more after the final encounter and thus started a new run. Slowly game opened for me and all the stuff started to make more sense. Developers probably tested the game enough and had solid vision for the game, but it didn't open for new players as easily as some other games.

 

Level design was one of the weak spots in ME. I mean often developers were so lazy that they just copy/pasted generic_warehouse_1, maybe moved few boxes or weaponlockers around and weld down one of the doors. Maybe you could rationalize it same way as the sterile look. There was some huge corporation who manufactured standard size warehouse and living quaters. But really, that's just lazyness.

 

For ME2 I wish more variation in level design, more interesting outside environments and total redesign of the loot system (as it's one of the worst I've seen in any game).

[Montgomery Markland]

Level design absolutely includes aesthetic and visual considerations. A level poor in visuals might be that way because of poor art direction, but it also might be that way because of poor level design. If artists are delivered a level that has not been designed with aesthetic and visual elements in mind, it will be very difficult for them to achieve a high level of visual quality.

 

I don't really remember Mass Effect well enough to comment on any particular levels, but I do recall being pretty bored for the first 4 hours and enjoying the game a lot for the rest of the time (maybe 8-10 hours of game after that). Part of that was definitely getting into the story and characters more as I played and getting more accustomed to the gameplay, but part of that was probably the level design in the first third of the game.

[Nightshape]

I don't think the EA/Bioware combo is bad. Bioware enjoys a lot of autonomy within the EA group - the Doctors just make sure to keep John Riccitello drugged.

 

I do, because EA will just throw money and bodies at problems opposed to solving it. EA's management culture is absolutely SCREWED!

 

Burnout Paradise cost $42 million, and needed to sell 2.2 million units - It didn't.

 

I admit that it's merely one example, Criterion is an absolute mess now as a result, and looking at EA's previous record with companies that it's bought you can see why I'd be thinking the way I am.

 

See in the past Bioware had to deal with publishers to get games released, now they don't have to deal with that, they just have to deal with EA's absolutely insane management structure.

[Nightshape]

Level design absolutely includes aesthetic and visual considerations. A level poor in visuals might be that way because of poor art direction, but it also might be that way because of poor level design. If artists are delivered a level that has not been designed with aesthetic and visual elements in mind, it will be very difficult for them to achieve a high level of visual quality.

 

When people speak of levels lacking a theme or relevence at all that's clearly something that went wrong before the level was even created.

 

That seems to be what has most peoples knickers in a twist, sure it could have been a failure of the level design and environment art team, but you'd have to have a downright piss poor unskilled set of folks to achieve that.