DRM Thread

[Hurlshort]

That's a shame, since Stardock is one of the few companies that came out against DRM. Just goes to show most folks pirating are simply selfish a-holes who think they are entitled to other people's hard work.

[alanschu]

I thought Stardock was championed by those that would otherwise pirate, for not using DRM, and hence rewarded by said pirates purchasing their games?

[Mamoulian War]

Pirates do not buy their games, people who hates DRM buy their games...

[alanschu]

Pirates do not buy their games, people who hates DRM buy their games...

 

 

These groups are not mutually exclusive.

Edited April 16, 2009 by alanschu

[Morgoth]

I think it's important to have copy protection for your games, otherwise it's an too easy snatch for pirates and everyone else who can't wait to get their hands on it. However, I don't get why publishers have to deploy this internet activation and limited install bull****. That's just contraproductive.

They should better use the new Steamworks suit, which now generates independently a specific exe file for every copy. That whay, no-cd cracks become obsolete, and while we once have to activate the game on the internet, it doesn't come with malware or limited installs.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Morgoth

[Mamoulian War]

Pirates do not buy their games, people who hates DRM buy their games...

 

 

These groups are not mutually exclusive.

 

Seriously saying that everyone who hates DRM is pirate is same bull**** like syaing that every muslim is terrorist...

Edited April 16, 2009 by Mamoulian War

[Purkake]

I think it's important to have copy protection for your games, otherwise it's an too easy snatch for pirates and everyone else who can't wait to get their hands on it. However, I don't get why publishers have to deploy this internet activation and limited install bull****. That's just contraproductive.

They should better use the new Steamworks suit, which now generates independently a specific exe file for every copy. That whay, no-cd cracks become obsolete, and while we once have to activate the game on the internet, it doesn't come with malware or limited installs.

 

I seriously doubt that the new Steamworks DRM solution will be the holy grail of copy protection. They have said that about every new DRM. For example the Bioshock DRM had internet activation that actually downloaded the exe from their server, it took less than a week to crack that.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

They should better use the new Steamworks suit, which now generates independently a specific exe file for every copy.

 

No they should not as they would loose the business of people who do not like Steam.

[Deraldin]

Pirates do not buy their games, people who hates DRM buy their games...

 

 

These groups are not mutually exclusive.

 

Seriously saying that everyone who hates DRM is pirate is same bull**** like syaing that every muslim is terrorist...

 

He didn't say that everyone who hates DRM is a pirate. He said that some people who hate DRM are pirates.

[Mamoulian War]

They should better use the new Steamworks suit, which now generates independently a specific exe file for every copy.

 

No they should not as they would loose the business of people who do not like Steam.

 

this

[neckthrough]

Pirates do not buy their games, people who hates DRM buy their games...

 

 

These groups are not mutually exclusive.

Well, yes and no.

 

The guy that downloads the torrent from Pirate Bay doesn't care if the original game had DRM or not, he's getting a clean uninfected version.

 

The guy that wants to borrow/copy a game from a friend does care and would be pissed off with DRM, but I would think that this group is pretty small in size. Also, many people in this group would probably resort to torrents once they figure out they can't get games from friends. Once they start file-sharing, DRM is a non-issue.

 

I certainly believe that the largest set of people that are most vehemently and vocally opposed to DRM are genuine pissed off customers.

[Hurlshort]

I certainly believe that the largest set of people that are most vehemently and vocally opposed to DRM are genuine pissed off customers.

 

But I'm not sure if that group itself is that large. They are a vocal minority, sure, and they wield the power of the internets. But I have a pretty good feeling that 90% of customers don't care about limited installs and all that. They just want the game to work when it is put in the PC.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

But I have a pretty good feeling that 90% of customers don't care about limited installs and all that.

 

Until they run out of activations or find out about the system that they have bought into.

[neckthrough]

I certainly believe that the largest set of people that are most vehemently and vocally opposed to DRM are genuine pissed off customers.

 

But I'm not sure if that group itself is that large. They are a vocal minority, sure, and they wield the power of the internets. But I have a pretty good feeling that 90% of customers don't care about limited installs and all that. They just want the game to work when it is put in the PC.

That's probably true. But because the vocal minority have made their sentiments abundantly clear, we're beginning to see EA back down on its increasingly draconian practices. This is a win for *all* consumers, not just the minority.

[alanschu]

Pirates do not buy their games, people who hates DRM buy their games...

 

 

These groups are not mutually exclusive.

 

Seriously saying that everyone who hates DRM is pirate is same bull**** like syaing that every muslim is terrorist...

 

 

I didn't say they overlapped perfectly, and hence didn't say that everyone who hates DRM is a pirate.

 

You're kidding yourself if you don't think some people that are anti-DRM pirate a game that has DRM because they still want to play it.

[alanschu]

The guy that wants to borrow/copy a game from a friend does care and would be pissed off with DRM, but I would think that this group is pretty small in size. Also, many people in this group would probably resort to torrents once they figure out they can't get games from friends. Once they start file-sharing, DRM is a non-issue.

 

I disagree that this group is small in size. It seems to me that the latest DRM methods specifically target this group, with limited installs and whatnot. Heck, even the CD Copy Protection was done primarily to combat this, as it prevented people from simply copying a CD to another CD. It's no coincidence that CD Copy Protection measures became more common when CD burners became more common.

Edited April 16, 2009 by alanschu

[neckthrough]

The guy that wants to borrow/copy a game from a friend does care and would be pissed off with DRM, but I would think that this group is pretty small in size. Also, many people in this group would probably resort to torrents once they figure out they can't get games from friends. Once they start file-sharing, DRM is a non-issue.

 

I disagree that this group is small in size. It seems to me that the latest DRM methods specifically target this group, with limited installs and whatnot. Heck, even the CD Copy Protection was done primarily to combat this, as it prevented people from simply copying a CD to another CD. It's no coincidence that CD Copy Protection measures became more common when CD burners became more common.

This was definitely true in the past, but I think times have changed. 10 years back very few people had multi-megabit connections and torrents weren't popular, so DRM would be a major annoyance to anyone that wanted to copy a game. Today anyone that wants a free ride will just queue up a torrent. The notion of "casual copying" is just not that common anymore. This has a positive effect too - I'd say Amazon MP3 et. al. have significantly reduced the amount of casual copying of songs from friends.

[alanschu]

I disagree but can't really verify the claim one way or another, so I'll leave it at that. The only evidence I have is that the DRMs still do a good job of specifically targeting the casual copying.

[Mamoulian War]

I disagree but can't really verify the claim one way or another, so I'll leave it at that. The only evidence I have is that the DRMs still do a good job of specifically targeting the casual copying.

 

I can confirm you that nowadays even casual pirates knows how to get non-DRM product from some sites, which name should not be mentioned here

[alanschu]

I can confirm you that nowadays even casual pirates knows how to get non-DRM product from some sites

 

I won't dispute that. I never did. Your statement is worthless though.

 

If we're going to play the anecdotal evidence game, I can confirm to you that people do in fact casually pirate games by taking a disc from a friend, installing it from that disc with that CD key (usually single player games), and then get a No-CD Crack. They prefer to do it this way because your mileage may vary when using public torrent sites. Ironically, they prefer to not use public torrent sites because they have issues with trojans and viruses. He did NOT do this with Spore, because his friend didn't want to use an install.

 

My example is just as worthless as yours though, and does little to support my position because I don't know how prevalent this course of action is.

Edited April 17, 2009 by alanschu

[neckthrough]

Ironically, they prefer to not use public torrent sites because they have issues with trojans and viruses.

Hmm, a possible trojan from a torrent site vs. a guaranteed trojan from EA... which one's worse? I wonder.

(Don't bother answering that, it wasn't a real question.)

 

In all seriousness though, from 50,000 feet they aren't all that different. They both install themselves in a way that they can take complete control of my computer, that I purchased, and where I keep my personal information. EA has absolutely no business touching my computer.

 

In general I'm opposed to DRM for a mix of practical and idealistic reasons, but I'm willing to live with non-intrusive implementations that give me certain value-additions (e.g. Steam).

 

Crap like SecuROM, on the other hand, enrages me to an entirely new level. I cannot believe it is legal and I cannot believe people are willing to put up with it. The rampant copyright infringement that is prevalent today is indeed a serious problem, but installing rootkits on customers' computers is not the solution. I honestly believe installing spyware on a user's computer without their knowledge is in my view easily as despicable a crime (if not worse) as illegally copying a piece of IP for personal use.

 

/rant

 

(just a general rant, I wasn't challenging anything particular you said. I know what your stand is.)

[skuld1]

(snip)

 

/rant

 

(just a general rant, I wasn't challenging anything particular you said. I know what your stand is.)

 

I don't think anyone here has a problem with reasonable anti-DRM folks, which you seem to be (maybe aside from saying you get a guaranteed trojan from EA ) .

 

Nowadays, all companies disclose what sort of DRM scheme is used with their products. If anti-DRM folks (not referring specifically to you, referring to the lame pirates) disagree with the policies that the company uses, don't buy their product. However, the fact that the companies use a scheme that anti-DRM folks don't like does not give pirates a right to commit copyright infringement.

 

There have even been a few regular posters here who have admitted to piracy due to DRM (though I believe their most explicit posts to that effect were deleted by mods). The way I see it is pretty simple: Pirates don't magically get the right to commit copyright infringement because some company uses a DRM scheme you don't like. Anyone that suggests that they gain the right to commit copyright infringement because of a DRM scheme is lame and pathetic.

[Hurlshort]

Yep, these are video games. They aren't something anyone is entitled to. I'm not a fan of some of the DRM measures, and I'd sign a petition to eliminate the more intrusive ones, but piracy is for the morally bankrupt.

 

 

I know this because when I was younger, I did my share of pirating. I look back on that time with a ton of regret. Not only was I selfishly damaging the industry that I wanted to thrive, but I was trading short term enjoyment at the cost of my long term happiness. It was stupid.

[Mamoulian War]

Fully agreed with you, but i realy dont think anyone here is trying to justify that

 

I have absolutely no problem with SECUROM 7 on my DVDs of NWN2 and their expansions, althought it little bit over the my definition of reasonable DRM (bacause of the malware similarities), but i would never ever touch the crap piece of **** that has Mass Effect, Spore or newest Riddick shipped with them...

[alanschu]

Yep, these are video games. They aren't something anyone is entitled to. I'm not a fan of some of the DRM measures, and I'd sign a petition to eliminate the more intrusive ones, but piracy is for the morally bankrupt.

 

 

I know this because when I was younger, I did my share of pirating. I look back on that time with a ton of regret. Not only was I selfishly damaging the industry that I wanted to thrive, but I was trading short term enjoyment at the cost of my long term happiness. It was stupid.

 

I was a hardcore pirate too.

 

My cousin had the new fangled interwebs and would get access to all the cool warez sites. One of my roommates in University hosted a private FTP server to pirate games (he'd usually give access to the server by asking for games or CD Keys). It was around this time though, that I started to be against piracy, and was proud of myself for owning all the software I was using while my 3 roommates all used pirated versions.