Slowtrain Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 But the idea that a dev doesn't care about the quality of a product is crazy. Yeah, ok, I will agree that if I came across as saying that devs don't have any pride in their work, that was not OK. I am sure that SOME don't care at all, but yeah, I'm sure a lot do. It's just unfortunate that we've reached this point. I remember when I could take games (opened and installed ones) back to the store just like any other product. Money is tight and I hate that when I buy a new game, I have to just hope that everything will actually work, because if it doesn't I've just wasted a lot of money. My current solution is simply to wait for a several months after release at least before buying a game. Each time I break that rule, I end up eating crow. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 At the point they become pirates, yes, its a moot point. Its the dislike of DRM that continues to create new pirates (at a faster rate than otherwise). I think that this is a myth. No, I think it sounds just right amount of stupid to actually be true. Nah, those people use DRM as an excuse to pirate, and if there was no DRM, they would just find another excuse. "I want to make sure it runs on my PC" "I'm just trying it out and the demo isn't available/isn't long enough" "It might be buggy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 My current solution is simply to wait for a several months after release at least before buying a game. Each time I break that rule, I end up eating crow. Well, that's what you get for being a STALKER fan! Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 My current solution is simply to wait for a several months after release at least before buying a game. Each time I break that rule, I end up eating crow. Well, that's what you get for being a STALKER fan! lol. so true. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) I enjoyed this:http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html It's biased in one direction of course, but I appreciated that he tried to substantiate his points with evidence. A good chunk of it is anecdotal unfortunately. He also has an interesting perspective on StarForce. He completely ignored the online activation issue with the possibility (eventual likelihood I would say) that the servers will be shut down. Besides, if online activation-type DDRM is there to prevent 0th day piracy (and I agree that that is part of the reason), than online activation can be patched out a week or two after it's cracked - but this does not happen. This leads many to the conclusion that DDRM has an ulterior motive - to prevent second hand sales, rather than to fight piracy. If online activation DDRM is there to prevent second hand sales, then publishers wouldn't be restoring activations upon uninstalls. I do agree with his notion that people that blame the developers and publishers for DRM are themselves misguided. There is no way that developers and publishers WANT to spend additional money that otherwise wouldn't be necessary if piracy wasn't as rampant. It's a bit of a pissoff also to learn that many torrent websites make millions of dollars "championing our right to software blahblahblahblahblah." How convenient. Sounds like there are big bux there too. I agree with his notion that people tend to pirate, simply because it means they can get free games. It's why I pirated when I was younger. The only reason why I stopped was due to the ethical concerns I had, and the cognitive dissonance because I myself want to be a game developer. The other piss off is that I definitely agree with him that these leechers most definitely are hurting the PC industry, no matter how much they lie to themselves and others that they are doing it for more than getting games for free. Why wouldn't developers prefer to ignore the PC as a platform if they don't stand to make much (if any) money on it? Edited January 23, 2009 by alanschu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tale Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 It's merely that you can't always get it 100% right 100% of the time. lol. Do you guys keep little sayings like this taped up in the lounge? Nothing like having built in excuses for your failures. There's also nothing like someone buying a toaster then blaming the manufacturer when it doesn't work because they live in a house with no roof and it's raining. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 At the point they become pirates, yes, its a moot point. Its the dislike of DRM that continues to create new pirates (at a faster rate than otherwise). I think that this is a myth. No, I think it sounds just right amount of stupid to actually be true. Nah, those people use DRM as an excuse to pirate, and if there was no DRM, they would just find another excuse. "I want to make sure it runs on my PC" "I'm just trying it out and the demo isn't available/isn't long enough" "It might be buggy" Anything to make them feel better about themselves. I agree with the chap in the article that said he respects people that say they pirate games because they'd rather not pay for them. At least they have a measure of honesty about them. My roommate was the same way, who pirated games because it maximized his return on investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I agree with the chap in the article that said he respects people that say they pirate games because they'd rather not pay for them. At least they have a measure of honesty about them. My roommate was the same way, who pirated games because it maximized his return on investment. What investment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I agree with the chap in the article that said he respects people that say they pirate games because they'd rather not pay for them. At least they have a measure of honesty about them. My roommate was the same way, who pirated games because it maximized his return on investment. What investment? Exactly, he gets something for nothing, which is always optimal. Why pay money for it when he didn't have to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 It's merely that you can't always get it 100% right 100% of the time. lol. Do you guys keep little sayings like this taped up in the lounge? Nothing like having built in excuses for your failures. There's also nothing like someone buying a toaster then blaming the manufacturer when it doesn't work because they live in a house with no roof and it's raining. I don't get what you mean. I always check the system requirements before I buy a game. I wouldn't expect a game to work if I didn't follow the guidelines as to what is required to run the game properly. Is that what you are referring to? I'm confused by your analogy. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neckthrough Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/22/1914201 "Microsoft yesterday unveiled its MSN Mobile Music service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly_Nightshade Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 "Geez. It's like we lost some sort of bet and ended up saddled with a bunch of terrible new posters on this forum." -Hurlshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 lol. That's cold. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure79 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/22/1914201 "Microsoft yesterday unveiled its MSN Mobile Music service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mamoulian War Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Yes... very real... another article about it... http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20090...usic-store.html Sent from my Stone Tablet, using Chisel-a-Talk 2000BC. My youtube channel: MamoulianFH Latest Let's Play Tales of Arise (completed) Latest Bossfight Compilation Dark Souls Remastered - New Game (completed) Let's Play/AAR Europa Universalis 1: Austria Grand Campaign (completed) Let's Play/AAR Europa Universalis 2: Xhosa Grand Campaign (completed) My PS Platinums and 100% - 29 games so far (my PSN profile) 1) God of War III - PS3 - 24+ hours 2) Final Fantasy XIII - PS3 - 130+ hours 3) White Knight Chronicles International Edition - PS3 - 525+ hours 4) Hyperdimension Neptunia - PS3 - 80+ hours 5) Final Fantasy XIII-2 - PS3 - 200+ hours 6) Tales of Xillia - PS3 - 135+ hours 7) Hyperdimension Neptunia mk2 - PS3 - 152+ hours 8.) Grand Turismo 6 - PS3 - 81+ hours (including Senna Master DLC) 9) Demon's Souls - PS3 - 197+ hours 10) Tales of Graces f - PS3 - 337+ hours 11) Star Ocean: The Last Hope International - PS3 - 750+ hours 12) Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII - PS3 - 127+ hours 13) Soulcalibur V - PS3 - 73+ hours 14) Gran Turismo 5 - PS3 - 600+ hours 15) Tales of Xillia 2 - PS3 - 302+ hours 16) Mortal Kombat XL - PS4 - 95+ hours 17) Project CARS Game of the Year Edition - PS4 - 120+ hours 18) Dark Souls - PS3 - 197+ hours 19) Hyperdimension Neptunia Victory - PS3 - 238+ hours 20) Final Fantasy Type-0 - PS4 - 58+ hours 21) Journey - PS4 - 9+ hours 22) Dark Souls II - PS3 - 210+ hours 23) Fairy Fencer F - PS3 - 215+ hours 24) Megadimension Neptunia VII - PS4 - 160 hours 25) Super Neptunia RPG - PS4 - 44+ hours 26) Journey - PS3 - 22+ hours 27) Final Fantasy XV - PS4 - 263+ hours (including all DLCs) 28) Tales of Arise - PS4 - 111+ hours 29) Dark Souls: Remastered - PS4 - 121+ hours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 [i really don't expect the media I purchase to last forever. And I'm ok with that. The good stuff will be remastered for new media, and there is always new stuff coming out anyways. You're OK with that. Most people aren't. Next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/22/1914201 "Microsoft yesterday unveiled its MSN Mobile Music service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly_Nightshade Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I really don't expect the media I purchase to last forever. And I'm ok with that. "Geez. It's like we lost some sort of bet and ended up saddled with a bunch of terrible new posters on this forum." -Hurlshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I kind of agree with Hurlshot though. For example, over the years I've owned Blondie's Eat to The Beat on vinyl, cassette, cd, and digital media. That means I've purchased the same collection of songs 4 times over a span of about 30 years, simply to keep up with new technology. There are quite a few other albums as well. I don't consider it a problem. However, re: the Microsoft article, I WOULD expect my songs to last through more than a single phone upgrade. That is pretty ludicrous. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I kind of agree with Hurlshot though. For example, over the years I've owned Blondie's Eat to The Beat on vinyl, cassette, cd, and digital media. That means I've purchased the same collection of songs 4 times over a span of about 30 years, simply to keep up with new technology. There are quite a few other albums as well. I don't consider it a problem. However, re: the Microsoft article, I WOULD expect my songs to last through more than a single phone upgrade. That is pretty ludicrous. But his post was very silly because a) he assumed that other people don't listen to or play old things just because he doesn't, and worse that somehow justified depriving others of the right to ever do so, and b) the only reason things get 'digitally remastered' is because they were originally not digital! Is he counting on a virtual reality revolution sometime soon that I don't know about? Look at all those things you listed: vinyl, cassette, CD, digital media. What's the one thing they all have in common? You bought them because your old format was out of date. Well thankfully, your newest format - digital, does not go out of date. Unless you add DRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Actually it serves as a counterpoint because otherwise, people are mislead to think that EVERYONE cares, since the people most likely to voice their concerns are those that are outspoken by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 My post doesn't assume either of those things. You are assuming that I am assuming. I also enjoy playing old games and listening to old music. But when I buy something I don't expect it to last forever, and now that I have a child I just count my lucky stars if it survives for a year. Here is a scenario to explain my viewpoint. I have the discs for King's Quest 5. It was one of my favorite games in my youth, I still have the big old box for it. But I have no desire to install it from those floppies. It would be a nightmare to get it to run even if I still had a floppy drive on my PC. So I subscribe to Gametap. I get Kings Quest 5 and it runs through the Gametap player, alleviating the issues I might run into with the OS. It has DRM, I don't own the game, I only get to play it as long as I subscribe to the service. This doesn't bother me in the least. Now Good Old Games is offering a different model, you play a flat fee and get the game DRM free. It is optimized to run under the current OS's. But in ten years, do you think the game will still run with new PC's and new OS's? It might, but there is no guarantee. So when I say DRM doesn't bother me because I don't expect my purchase to last forever, it is simply my experience with technology speaking. I think DRM has proven to be a waste of money for publishers over the last year, but I don't see it as some evil entity. That would be the pirates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 So when I say DRM doesn't bother me because I don't expect my purchase to last forever, it is simply my experience with technology speaking. I think DRM has proven to be a waste of money for publishers over the last year, but I don't see it as some evil entity. That would be the pirates. Which I pretty much agree with. I don't expect any purchased item to last for ever. Whether its furniture or entertainment media. I expect what I purchase to last for a resonable amount of time based on how much it cost. My old three hundred dollar dvd player died and I replaced it with one that cost $25. I don't expect it to last very long. But if it gets through a year or two, I'll be content. I think DRM is a waste of money and a stupid concept. People who want to bypass it, will. People who don't want to are probably not the people that need DRM in the first place. I would prefer DRM go off to a small dark room and never return. But I don't see it as something that is going to affect the use of my products down the road any more than is already so. HOWEVER, something like the Microsoft thing is a bit too like planned obselence (sp) for my taste. I'll pass on their plan. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 You bought them because your old format was out of date. Well thankfully, your newest format - digital, does not go out of date. Unless you add DRM. I'm probably bad example as I am one of those who cling to the humorous and archiac notion of wanting a purchase to result in something tangible. I actually don't like digital media very much and would prefer to stick with something like cds exclusively. However, the convenience factor is undeniable. It is ever so much easier to carry around a tiny little mp3 player than the smallest possible cd player. Ideally I'd like to see music on tiny little discs the size of a fingernail. That would be the best of both worlds. Except I'd probably drop them down the drain or something by accident. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Monty Python's sales on Amazon.com jump 23000% when they release all their episodes to YouTube for free. http://entertainment.slashdot.org/article....9/01/25/0041202 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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