My opinion on the words "dialogue" and "dialog".

[Gorth]

"The boy vomited".

 

There, problem solved

[Gorgon]

What is that an example of.

[Gorth]

What is that an example of.

How to solve a problem by not creating it in the first place

[Gorgon]

'threw up' is one syntactic unit, not two. The preposition only reveals itself at the morphological level. I'd say it was an exception, which is all good. Exceptions are what makes us remember the rules as much as the rules themselves.

[samm]

Greek and Latin rely more heavily on grammar than English, which relies more on word placement rather than grammar per se.

That is a funny thing to say. First, what do you count into 'grammar'? I agree of course in the sense that there are more phenomena with a greater amount rules in the former languages, like morphology and constructions using certain cases etc, but other things with less, like writing direction, separation of words, syntax in the sense of succession of words, punctuation...

The preposition only reveals itself at the morphological level.

What exactly do you mean by that? I currently can't get my head around that

 

By the way, it's interesting to see that there are grammatical problems in English - when looking at papers about computational linguistics, the English writers tend to make assumptions that are far, far too easy for most languages other than English. [edit]Oh, and should I mention the horrible prevalence of ASCII encoding?... No, that's probably off topic.

Edited December 8, 2008 by samm

[Gorgon]

Morphology

Base word type classification, preposition, noun, verb.

 

Syntax

Function within a clause, predicate, object, subject.

[samm]

I think you misunderstood my question - I do know what morphology and syntax are. In fact, your definitions are somewhat lacking What I wanted to know was simply what you wanted to say with the quoted sentence: That one doesn't know that 'up' is a preposition unless one looks it up in a grammar book? That it doesn't matter what 'up' means, where it is placed etc, but it matters that it in fact is a preposition? You see, that sentence still confuses me...

 

On the other hand, we could just go back to topic.

[Gorgon]

My definition is lacking how.. I mean, there are more functions and word types, these are just examples.

 

The point I was trying to make is that 'up' is certainly a preposition, but thinking in groups of meaning, as when you assign syntax within a clause, 'threw up' constitutes one, and further analysis does nothing to improve ones understanding, in fact the opposite is the case.

 

In the grammar I learned long ago one could call it a prepositional clause or a verb clause post modified by a preposition, but a descriptive language like grammatical analysis often forces conclusions that are irrelevant.

[Aristes]

Once again, this is an example of my prevailing laziness, since we indeed have grammar in Enlish. The earlier example of 'whom' underscores that point, as it is a... relative pronoun (I think. As I warned earlier, I've forgotten a lot of the terms.). It is not mere window dressing, as it is the objective form. Perhaps I should have said that Greek and Latin rely heavily on grammatical constructs whereas English (and most Romance languages) rely on word order and punctuation.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love English. In fact, I think learning all those oldie moldie languages helps folks learn more about their own languages. However, there are folks in the US who contend that grammar need not be taught in its own right since students will have sufficient understanding of it from common use. Grammar is the red headed step-child of English.

 

And I'll admit that you're probably going to have me if you're an actual linguist, since I'm not one. No hard feelings, though. I'll take my lumps and be glad to hear what you have to say.

[Humodour]

Well, if tarna and Krezaks defense is right, then J.E.'s point is already lost.

 

I think you misunderstood. I was simply conceding that American quotation punctuation is a 'strict' rule in America to point out an inconsistency in Enoch's application of standards (because I was being a senseless pedant), not that it's correct or logical (I don't think it is).

 

Certainly though, I think Enoch's claim that these are "American forums" was silly, since probably not even half the members are American, and the games are designed for the international community.

 

As such, I will now advocate British quotation punctuation (as established by The Oxford Guide to Style).

[Humodour]

Hey guys, I've a couple of grammar questions:

 

Aristes said: "The earlier example of 'whom' underscores that point, as it is a... relative pronoun (I think. As I warned earlier, I've forgotten a lot of the terms.)."

 

Is his use of the extra full stop at the end correct? It seems to be correct from a perspective of consistency (and I do it, too), but it also looks odd having two full stops in a row.

 

Also, I'm going to refer to something: This is a sentence. Is my capitalisation of 'this' correct or should it be lower case (I usually opt for lower case)? I mean, when you use a semicolon, you don't start the new 'sentence' with capitalisation, right, so why do it with a colon?

[Aristes]

All right (alright) Krezak, you yutz. I'll accept your Oxford Guide.

 

I think these boards are much American as anything else, but I also tend to prefer diversity at any rate. Not in any sort of enforced sense, but more in an organic sort of way.

 

As far as the parentheses are concerned, my understanding is that full sentences within them follow normal rules and, where they fall within a clause, punctuation follows. However, I will defer to grammarians on this point. I probably should have ended the sentence and then included my parenthetical comments afterward. In truth, you really shouldn't rely on a lot of parenthetical information.

[Walsingham]

I'm going to quote Churchill, since I'm too lazy to construct my own witticisms:

 

"Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put."

[Gorgon]

So whats your take on 'the boy threw up', can you appreciate where I'm coming from by viewing 'threw up' as the verb and not bothering one bit about the preposition.

[Walsingham]

I find it hard to argue, on the practical and philosophical levels because I've been throwing up all day.

[Amentep]

Full stop should only be used in one place in the case of parenthesis, not both. Outside the parenthesis unless the parenthesis themselves form a separate sentence

 

The letter after a colon is capitalized if the section following is multiple sentences or is the "meat" of the sentence, or is a formal quote, otherwise its not capitalized.

[blue]

"Dialog" has only appeared in American English the past twenty to thirty years, thanks to programmers and Microsoft.

Apparently some joker missed your memo.

[Musopticon?]

Morphology

Base word type classification, preposition, noun, verb.

 

Syntax

Function within a clause, predicate, object, subject.

I agree, " threw up" forms its own syntactic unit and the matter shouldn't be made more confusing by examining it on the morphological level. Phrasal verbs might be problematic to some wizened old coots, but when the issue springs up, I usually take to established grammarians(that agree with me), like say Leech and Svartvik, rather than delve into the much bigger issue of standardization. For me its enough that the communicative value stays intact from user to user.

 

Also, linguistic student here. And man, I'm going to stay out of this grammar business. Postcolonial studies(read: language on the macro level) are enough for me.

[Aristes]

I'm a classical history man myself. You learn a lot of English grammar from taking classical languages, though. Not necessarily because we have all of the same constructs, but more because you get a certain feel for your own grammar when forced to understand foreign grammar. I think. ...But hell, who knows?

 

Hark, to shower I must attend, O vangabonds!

[Humodour]

Yeah, you're right there. Learning any second language is a massive boost to your first language.

 

For example, while I haven't actually 'learnt' any second language yet, but when I was just briefly teaching myself some Russian, I discovered what (in)definite articles were in English by Russian's lack of them.

 

English: "The boy went to a shop."

Pseudo-Russian: "Boy went to shop."

[Gorgon]

Whats an indefinite article, a missing definite article..

 

ohh nevermind, it's just 'a', 'an', no definite (specific) reference.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Gorgon

[Gorgon]

In Japanese and Thai, probably more asian languages I'm not aware of, the subject is often elided, this makes context an absolute imperative. If you didn't know what the two sentences above were about, the next few may be no help at all. An adjective can constitute an entire clause.

 

I like the methodical approach in English, where you have to mark the place where the subject would have been with 'it'

and of course you can't do without introducing it specifically to begin with.

 

Japanese : cold (is)

 

English : It is cold.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Gorgon

[Gorth]

In Swedish: *Hrmmff!* *Grunt!* *Snarff!*

 

It took me a long time to learn using 'The' in sentences. I often forgot it when writing my first sentences in English. I.e. "Car is going fast" instead of "The car is going fast".

[Gorgon]

Well, 'bilen, huset, etc' is definite reference.

[Gorth]

Well, 'bilen, huset, etc' is definite reference.

It is. It just doesn't translate very well (or at least I used to think so when learning English)

 

Silly people couldn't just use a perfectly good variation of the word, but had to add additional filler words to sentences.