Any good games coming out?

[Slowtrain]

They are removing one key aspect of exploration: find enough health to stay alive.

 

This is simply wrong. "Finding enough health to say alive" is not a "key aspect" of exploration. I already mentioned Thief, which you yourself said earlier has a better quality level of exploration than DX, and finding health plays a very minor part.

 

 

FInding health plays a minor role in Thief, because combat plays a minor role in thief. If you play the game well, you should never lose a point of health.

 

That being said, finding health potions in Thief was an AWESOME reward. I was always totally excited when I found some. Because it gave me room for making the inevtiable mistakes I knew I would eventually make and get a hammer to my skull.

[Maria Caliban]

I find that moving the HUD into the game added nothing to the gameplay and only made the game more annoying. Then again I don't like survival horror games and hate using game mechanics to increase the difficulty. "Oh my god will I be able to go through this clumsy and poorly designed menu to get to my medkit or will I have to try again, the horror is blood chilling."

 

If you wanted to heal, all you had to do was press 'Q.' If you popped open the inventory during combat, no wonder you were frustrated.

 

I find shooters difficult in general because they involve skills I suck at. VATS was a life saver in Fallout 3 because instead of wasting my ammo shooting at the air around the super mutant running at me with that super sledge, I could pause and have my character - who is actually a good shot - take aim and fire. The same is true for the pause function in Mass Effect. Why? Because things are easier to see when they don't move.

 

In shooters, things constantly move, and you get l33t points because you can track them. Now, the convention is to have some things not constantly move, but there's no reason for that other than convention. Complaining that the health bar is now on the character's back - unlike other games - is like complaining that instead of being able to head shot everything - like other games - you have to dismember it. That's fine if you don't like it (I dislike it as well) but that doesn't make it poor design or implementation.

[Slowtrain]

You never had that to start with since medkits were more than plentiful in Deus Ex. Personally I think there are far worse decisions than the regenerating health question (which I'm against for other reasons), like the graphics and some other things I'm forgetting.

 

 

Med kits were somewhat plentiful in Deus Ex, but I always ran low at some point or another. I always either had to increase my mde skill or take the regen mod or I would run out.

 

It was sweet that way.

[Maria Caliban]

If that's the key reason for exploration, then the developer is doing something wrong. DX is not L4D, where you contantly hunger for healing.

 

Making staying alive a key reason for exploration in a game where people are shooting at you with plasma rifles is doing something wrong? I don't understand what you mean. How can it not be a key, even THE key, aspect of exploration.

 

I already listed why *I* explored in DX. As someone who stealthed through as much of the game as I could, I promise you that I never explored for health packs. Upgrade canisters? Yes! Passwords and logs. Yes. Multi-tools? Those I loved.

 

I explored to find stuff I that interested me, and I didn't need a great number of health packs. It seems you played a more fighter oriented character so those health packs were probably more desirable to you.

[Hell Kitty]

I don't hate health regeneration, but I don't think that it adds anything either.

 

Heh, it's not supposed to add anything, it's subtracting the loot hunt element, and as you've just claimed you've never run out of health in any recent game it sounds like it shouldn't be an issue for you.

 

FInding health plays a minor role in Thief, because combat plays a minor role in thief.

 

Combat can play a minor role in DX, that's a decision left up to the player, and in this regard Hitman is the same. In other words, you're still wrong, "finding enough health to say alive" is not a "key aspect" of exploration.

 

If you play the game well, you should never lose a point of health.

 

Again, this is true of both DX and H:BM.

 

In DX, finding health is not a key aspect of the game. Health is something you will find whilst doing other exploration, you never need to go search for it specifically, and if you play well enough you will never have to worry about it.

[Slowtrain]

I already listed why *I* explored in DX. As someone who stealthed through as much of the game as I could, I promise you that I never explored for health packs. Upgrade canisters? Yes! Passwords and logs. Yes. Multi-tools? Those I loved.

 

 

Explain to me the difference between exploring for mutitools vs healthpacks.

[Purkake]

I find that moving the HUD into the game added nothing to the gameplay and only made the game more annoying. Then again I don't like survival horror games and hate using game mechanics to increase the difficulty. "Oh my god will I be able to go through this clumsy and poorly designed menu to get to my medkit or will I have to try again, the horror is blood chilling."

 

If you wanted to heal, all you had to do was press 'Q.' If you popped open the inventory during combat, no wonder you were frustrated.

 

I find shooters difficult in general because they involve skills I suck at. VATS was a life saver in Fallout 3 because instead of wasting my ammo shooting at the air around the super mutant running at me with that super sledge, I could pause and have my character - who is actually a good shot - take aim and fire. The same is true for the pause function in Mass Effect. Why? Because things are easier to see when they don't move.

 

In shooters, things constantly move, and you get l33t points because you can track them. Now, the convention is to have some things not constantly move, but there's no reason for that other than convention. Complaining that the health bar is now on the character's back - unlike other games - is like complaining that instead of being able to head shot everything - like other games - you have to dismember it. That's fine if you don't like it (I dislike it as well) but that doesn't make it poor design or implementation.

 

Didn't know about the Q thing.

 

I really like the pause function as well, it makes things more tactical. I don't have a problem with shooting people if my aim isn't crippled for effect ala Dead Space.

 

I disagree that complaining about the health bar is the same as complaining about the dismemberment. The dismemberment is a new and interesting mechanic that totally changes the gameplay and makes you pay attention to what you aim at. The health on your back is a meaningless gimmick, implemented to put a big bullet point on the box saying "No HUD, total immersion!!".

 

I don't hate health regeneration, but I don't think that it adds anything either.

 

Heh, it's not supposed to add anything, it's subtracting the loot hunt element, and as you've just claimed you've never run out of health in any recent game it sounds like it shouldn't be an issue for you.

 

I just don't understand the need to change it. It looks like a "me too" kind of a thing. It also seems like a departure from the RPG part of Deus Ex.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Purkake

[Slowtrain]

FInding health plays a minor role in Thief, because combat plays a minor role in thief.

 

Combat can play a minor role in DX, that's a decision left up to the player, and in this regard Hitman is the same. In other words, you're still wrong, "finding enough health to say alive" is not a "key aspect" of exploration.

 

Very true. If you choose to avoid combat then you will not need as much extra health. How does that have anything to do with not putting out health packs as part of the exploration process.

 

Again, this is true of both DX and H:BM.

 

In DX, finding health is not a key aspect of the game. Health is something you will find whilst doing other exploration, you never need to go search for it specifically, and if you play well enough you will never have to worry about it.

 

In Deus Ex your play style can miminize the need for one reosurce and maximize a need for another. Its all part of the gameplay. SImply removing one key aspect is silly.

[Slowtrain]

[ "No HUD, total immersion!!".

 

 

Except in the real world, I don't have to look at my back to see if I got my legs blown off. In the real world, somehow, my body just knows....

[Purkake]

[ "No HUD, total immersion!!".

 

 

Except in the real world, I don't have to look at my back to see if I got my legs blown off. In the real world, somehow, my body just knows....

 

Yes, it seems a bit illogical to hide your injuries. Maybe in a few years you'll have to rotate the camera around and find the bullet holes to make sure that you are ok.

[Slowtrain]

[ "No HUD, total immersion!!".

 

 

Except in the real world, I don't have to look at my back to see if I got my legs blown off. In the real world, somehow, my body just knows....

 

Yes, it seems a bit illogical to hide your injuries. Maybe in a few years you'll have to rotate the camera around and find the bullet holes to make sure that you are ok.

 

WHen you're playing a computer/video game you are interacting with a world in a manner that limits your sensory input. Basically, you can only use 2 of your senses, vision and hearing. Forcefeedback can give you some semblance of feel, but not really.

 

Therefore, in order to represent things that you cannot see or or hear, the game has to present some sort of representational meter or gauge.

 

WHen I am playing a game, I can't tell if I've been shot because I can't feel my body, because of course, I don't have a body to tell me what is going on with it. The health meter is a visual representation of the state of my body. It is a neccessary artifice because of the current limitations of our interactions with virtual world. Although a health meter may seem "artificial", in fact when we play, it quickly becomes normalized, just another part of the world.

 

 

Removing the health meter, so it becomes difficult to know the condition of our virtual bodies, or making it come and go, prevents us from getting information that we need when we need it, and thus in fact draws MORE attention to itself as an artice.

 

 

It amazes me that game developers don't understand these things.

[Hell Kitty]

How does that have anything to do with not putting out health packs as part of the exploration process.

 

I don't know how I can be any clearer. "Finding health" is not an inherent part of exploration, not a "key aspect", as evidenced by exploration heavy games in which finding health plays no part.

 

SImply removing one key aspect is silly.

 

Your constantly claiming that finding health is a "key aspect" is what is silly, because as I've mentioned several times now it's simply wrong, and as you seem to ignore that there is nothing left to say.

 

You like finding health kits in games that allow it, that's all well and good, but finding health kits won't be a part of the gameplay in DX3. Perhaps you'll enjoy is less than you would if it was designed to incorporate health kits, but for me it's not an issue.

 

As for Dead Space, it features a standard health bar, it is as easy to see on the characters back as it would be in a HUD. I don't know what Purkakes issue is, other than personally not liking it. Me, I didn't like the HUD in DX:IW. It was ugly. That's not a design flaw.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Hell Kitty

[Slowtrain]

I don't know how I can be any clearer. "Finding health" is not an inherent part of exploration, not a "key aspect", as evidenced by exploration heavy games in which finding health plays no part.

 

 

I don't know how I can be any clearer, finding health is the key aspect of a game like Deus Ex, which is about exploring and staying alive. If your character runs out of health nothing else matters.

 

 

 

Your constantly claiming that finding health is a "key aspect" is what is silly, because as I've mentioned several times now it's simply wrong, and as you seem to ignore that there is nothing left to say.

 

You like finding health kits in games that allow it, that's all well and good, but finding health kits won't be a part of the gameplay in DX3. Perhaps you'll enjoy is less than you would if it was designed to incorporate health kits, but for me it's not an issue.

 

 

Yeah, the developers are going to do what they are going to do, but it doesn't make the rationalization of why they are doing it any less weak.

 

You don't take away reasons to explore in an exploration game. Its ridiculous.

Edited February 21, 2009 by CrashGirl

[Maria Caliban]

I already listed why *I* explored in DX. As someone who stealthed through as much of the game as I could, I promise you that I never explored for health packs. Upgrade canisters? Yes! Passwords and logs. Yes. Multi-tools? Those I loved.

 

 

Explain to me the difference between exploring for mutitools vs healthpacks.

 

There isn't one. That would be my point.

 

Explain to me what your argument is because I'm confused.

 

What I hear is: They need to have *health packs* because searching for *health packs* is a key to exploration.

 

To which I responded, there are things other than *health packs* to search for.

 

If your point is now that we need some incentive to explore, and it doesn't matter whether that incentive is health packs, passwords, multitools, alternate routes, etc. and that multi-tools can perform the exact same function - ie, an item you want and will go out of your way to look for - then what is the emphasis on *health packs?*

[Slowtrain]

My point is that nothing should be done to lessen the importance of exploration in a game life Deus Ex. Don't remove anything. Heck, add more stuff. Don't reduce the game. Invisible War tried that, and failed.

 

But if you have to not remove ONE thing, that one thing that should not be removed is health pickups.

 

Because health is so basic to the gameplay. And the gameplay of Deux Ex is exploration and resource gathering and survival. Giving it away for free hurts that gameplay.

 

ARe the other reasons to explore? Sure. But why take away the most basic one?

 

Its this damn streamlining, is what it is. This idea that continually reducing a game makes it more accessible and sells more copies. And maybe it does. At least if that is the motivation, I understand it.

[Mamoulian War]

LOL at health regeneration... The game will look like this... kill few enemies and if under 50% Alt+Tab to facebook chat a while with friends, repeat... oh joy... i rather hit my left knee with a hammer...

[alanschu]

"...designers didn

[alanschu]

Stop the spamming, ladies. Why does nobody respond to my outrage about the DX levels?

 

I *did* respond to your outrage.

 

DX levels were marvels of failiure due to its poor gameplay. You could sneak your way through them or you could shoot, but neither worked very well. The sneaking was a frustrating trial-and-error horror of seemingly randomly triggered alarms, while the shooting was clunky and awkward. Everyone just ended up getting the amazingly imbalanced lightsabre so you could rush and chop your way through it

 

And then you'd get those agents that blew up when they died.

 

The original Deus Ex has the 'dart handcrossbow.' Possibly the stupidest weapon ever. It was weak, the range was bad, it only worked on organics, and if you tried the non-leather darts, it took five hours for them to die while they ran around alerting everyone around you.

 

 

Disagree entirely wrt to the crossbow. As nonlethal it is amazing, because it WILL knock them out. I would hide on a ledge or behind a corner, snipe people, and hide until they passed out, rinsing and repeating. I use it a whole heck of a lot for the first few missions.

[alanschu]

This is the exact reason the Call of Duty series now uses regen. Its developers want players to move from one intense action scene to another, they don't want players to get to the end of a battle and search around for a health kit because they are too injured to continue, and feel the need to reload because they are too injured to continue. You survive the battle or you don't.

 

That would be an issue if the games weren't easy enough to play through by a blindfolded drunk who had never seen a video game in his life.

 

I'd rather watch a movie than play a game where all you do is go from room to room mowing down enemies without worry for ammo, health or tactics.

 

Regenerating health is simply the removal of the health-kit hunt element, that's all. It doesn't effect exploration is any other way.

 

When was the last time you had to actually hunt down a medkit in a game? There's usually so many of them that you could use them as ammunition.

 

 

Then regenerating health shouldn't be an issue for you.

[Dark_Raven]

Hey how about that Dragon Age game?

 

D3 for me. Come on Blizzard.

 

It's been pushed back until November.

 

I'm wondering if DIII will even hit the shelves this year. While you're waiting, you can pick up a cute, diablo iii t-shirt.

Good things do not come to releases being pushed back. Sounds like Duke Nuke 'Em Forever again.

 

A neat D3 T-shirt.

Edited February 22, 2009 by Dark_Raven

[Morgoth]

I think it was pretty clear from the beginning that Diablo 3 would hit shelves in 2010 at the earliest.

[Mamoulian War]

SC2 will be released first imo... and i atm kinda doubt it that it will be ready before spring 2010

[Morgoth]

I think SC2 will be ready for 2009. They're prolly announce the release date at the BlizzCon in August.

 

Or not.

[Mamoulian War]

I think SC2 will be ready for 2009. They're prolly announce the release date at the BlizzCon in August.

 

Or not.

 

Depends how much is Blizz spoiled by Kotick

[Kaftan Barlast]

DX' design was ambitious, but flawed. I prefer that more rather than some "perfectly" made Gears of War boxes that repeat themself like a pattern. In DX, there were always these little things you could discover. I miss this attention to detail in modern games.

 

 

What do you mean boxes?