Deus Ex 3

[Shryke]

That said, being shot up and being crippled to some degree, for instance having to re route your systems to regeneration and being unable to use other functions, walking with a limp, limited combat ability. It actually sounds like an interesting gameplay element. And there would be no magical return to full function by clicking a health kit. This would punish charging in blindly and reward careful planning.

 

that sounds kinda cool

 

and i suppose it could work storywise too

 

after all, i'm assuming you play as a mech and not a nanotech agent

[Gorgon]

 

Difficulty level with autohealing only affects individual battles. What happens in one battle has no bearing on the next battle. However if you have limited healing resources per game level, you have to be careful about expending too much of it in any one battle, and thus may have to rethink your whole approach. Sure, you can still take the careful approach even without incentive from the game, but then you're not really competing against the game, which is kind of the point.

 

I dunno, viewing a whole map as some kind of complex equation where you have to think carefully about every resource allocation doesn't sound that enjoyable to me.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Gorgon

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Difficulty level with autohealing only affects individual battles. What happens in one battle has no bearing on the next battle. However if you have limited healing resources per game level, you have to be careful about expending too much of it in any one battle, and thus may have to rethink your whole approach. Sure, you can still take the careful approach even without incentive from the game, but then you're not really competing against the game, which is kind of the point.

 

I dunno, viewing a whole map as some kind of complex equation where you have to think carefully about every resource allocation doesn't sound that enjoyable to me.

I don't think it needs to be that complex, though personally I don't think there's such a thing as too complex, so long as it's not confusing. The main point is that you need to be careful in each battle, so instead of taking on 5 enemies in a row, may be hack the turret or sneak through the vent instead, or find some cover from which you can snipe them efficiently.

[alanschu]

Like that happens a whole lot. Anyway the difficultly level can generate the same scenario.

Difficulty level with autohealing only affects individual battles. What happens in one battle has no bearing on the next battle. However if you have limited healing resources per game level, you have to be careful about expending too much of it in any one battle, and thus may have to rethink your whole approach. Sure, you can still take the careful approach even without incentive from the game, but then you're not really competing against the game, which is kind of the point.

 

 

With the ability to quick save and quick load, are you ever really competing against the game?

 

If the game is hard, then people compensate by saving and loading more frequently. Kill a guy without taking damage? Save! And so on.

 

What is frustrating is that the end of a level becomes impossible to complete because you have no health and there are no medkits around, but you just barely made it through some tough parts. Time to start it all over then I guess.

 

 

It's a double edged sword, and don't really care one way or the other. If I had to choose I'd probably choose a slow regen.

[Moatilliatta]

It's a double edged sword, and don't really care one way or the other. If I had to choose I'd probably choose a slow regen.

Then people will just stand around until they're healed.

 

I imagine it'll be like VtM:B (It effectively had regeneration as you could feed just about anywhere) where all possibilities are possible at the same time, which was fun, but not much more.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Like that happens a whole lot. Anyway the difficultly level can generate the same scenario.

Difficulty level with autohealing only affects individual battles. What happens in one battle has no bearing on the next battle. However if you have limited healing resources per game level, you have to be careful about expending too much of it in any one battle, and thus may have to rethink your whole approach. Sure, you can still take the careful approach even without incentive from the game, but then you're not really competing against the game, which is kind of the point.

 

 

With the ability to quick save and quick load, are you ever really competing against the game?

 

If the game is hard, then people compensate by saving and loading more frequently. Kill a guy without taking damage? Save! And so on.

 

What is frustrating is that the end of a level becomes impossible to complete because you have no health and there are no medkits around, but you just barely made it through some tough parts. Time to start it all over then I guess.

 

 

It's a double edged sword, and don't really care one way or the other. If I had to choose I'd probably choose a slow regen.

I do that a lot. So what, the point is I have to take out each enemy carefully, even if I have to try multiple times. I'm not saying make the game frustrating, I'm saying make it so alternate paths and taking the entire level into consideration has an incentive. I think the point you're making about low health is more valid for shooters, in a game like DX you have plenty of opportunity to avoid that kind of situation so long as you don't just use brute force, which is much of the fun. And slow regen just makes your stand around and wait when in low health, which is the least fun solution IMO. I hated when I kept having to do that in Oblivion.

[Moatilliatta]

@Gorgon

Surely frustration has little to do with individual design choices and more to do with how they're implemented. If it's possible to fight yourself into an impossible position then it's the designers implementation that fails (in general of course) not the ideas behind it.

 

You kinda argued medpack games into a situation that I've never seen in well designed games.

[Gorgon]

No I was just responding to posters commenting on how wonderful it is to only have one med pack left. The more likely outcome is that you hoard them. Anyway I think the whole cyborg, android, biomod idea lends itself rather well to passive healing.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Gorgon

[Musopticon?]

I think the art direction they've taken is what will eventually sell the game to me, provided at least someone likes the story.

 

Whatever, the mech look reminds me so much of Gits, it's not even funny.

[Moatilliatta]

No I was just responding to posters commenting on how wonderful it is to only have one med pack left. The more likely outcome is that you hoard them. Anyway I think the whole cyborg, android, biomod idea lends itself rather well to passive healing.

It still wasn't a good answer.

 

Having one medpack left is bliss so long as the designer doesn

[Wrath of Dagon]

It just sets off alarm bells that this might really be an accessible shooter with token RPG elements, but who knows, they might implement it well.

[mkreku]

The problem with auto healing for me is that it disrupts the flow of the game. Whenever I am hit, I just take cover and stop playing. Then I sit there and stare at that health bar that's slowly creeping up to full before I continue playing. To me, that's not making the game more fun, it's making the game experience more fragmented. Health regeneration only leaves me with two choices: either I continue and die (and have to reload) or I just stop playing for whatever amoujnt of time it takes for the regeneration to finish.

 

When I have health packs, I use them whenever I need. I don't have to wait for a regenerating health bar, the outcome is in my own hands and the game experience flows much better.

 

That said, I've enjoyed Crysis and other regenerators before so all is not doom and gloom. I'd prefer health packs but I can live with regeneration.

[Hell Kitty]

Then people will just stand around until they're healed.

 

It's not as though the rest of the game world suddenly stops whenever the player just stands around until they've healed. If you're in the middle of a firefight you can't just "stop playing" while you regenerate because your enemies won't stop playing. While you're hiding in cover you might loose sight of your enemies and allow them to get the drop on you, or you may need to retreat to a different location before you can heal up.

[alanschu]

I do that a lot. So what, the point is I have to take out each enemy carefully, even if I have to try multiple times. I'm not saying make the game frustrating, I'm saying make it so alternate paths and taking the entire level into consideration has an incentive. I think the point you're making about low health is more valid for shooters, in a game like DX you have plenty of opportunity to avoid that kind of situation so long as you don't just use brute force, which is much of the fun. And slow regen just makes your stand around and wait when in low health, which is the least fun solution IMO. I hated when I kept having to do that in Oblivion.

 

 

So reloading constantly to ensure you successfully complete each encounter optimally is better?

 

 

To be honest, after you started talking about how you have plenty of opportunity to avoid those kind of situations in Dues Ex, it sounds like the point you are making is that the health regeneration model (whether it be auto regen, or medkits) is not very important.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I do that a lot. So what, the point is I have to take out each enemy carefully, even if I have to try multiple times. I'm not saying make the game frustrating, I'm saying make it so alternate paths and taking the entire level into consideration has an incentive. I think the point you're making about low health is more valid for shooters, in a game like DX you have plenty of opportunity to avoid that kind of situation so long as you don't just use brute force, which is much of the fun. And slow regen just makes your stand around and wait when in low health, which is the least fun solution IMO. I hated when I kept having to do that in Oblivion.

 

 

So reloading constantly to ensure you successfully complete each encounter optimally is better?

Better than proceeding through the game sloppily, yes. I don't always have to reload, but I like to have the opportunity if I need to.

 

To be honest, after you started talking about how you have plenty of opportunity to avoid those kind of situations in Dues Ex, it sounds like the point you are making is that the health regeneration model (whether it be auto regen, or medkits) is not very important.

You can avoid that situation in either case, the difference is with medkits you have to use your head, with regen it's done for you so you can just plough through.

[Hell Kitty]

You can avoid that situation in either case, the difference is with medkits you have to use your head, with regen it's done for you so you can just plough through.

 

Like I said before that's really not true.

[Gorgon]

Well either works if done well, I just dislike having to forage for medkits. It's perfectly possible to combine passive healing with limited resouce. It's in the execution after all. Say you play as a mech, you would be unable to fully heal until you are able to 'power down'. Doing that in a hostile area could get you killed.

 

You could also have slow regen combined with medpacks or a limeted use biomod (X times per day), that is perhaps passive healing would only regenerate your health bar 50%.

[alanschu]

Better than proceeding through the game sloppily, yes. I don't always have to reload, but I like to have the opportunity if I need to.

 

Sounds like rationalization if you ask me. If you want to challenge the game, play iron man and only save when you intend to stop playing. Ridiculous amounts of savnig and loading mean you can still play through the game sloppily...you just start to use your metaknowledge of what is coming up to cheat if you find a place that struggles.

 

 

You can avoid that situation in either case, the difference is with medkits you have to use your head, with regen it's done for you so you can just plough through.

 

Maybe in a shooter, but not really in Deus Ex. I only ever play the game on Realistic and as you say, the game lets you play in such a variety of ways that health management is moot in the game.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Better than proceeding through the game sloppily, yes. I don't always have to reload, but I like to have the opportunity if I need to.

 

Sounds like rationalization if you ask me.

Any reason I give you you can call rationalization. Rationalization of what exactly?

If you want to challenge the game, play iron man and only save when you intend to stop playing.

I want some challenge, not a ridiculous amount of challenge. Having to redo things once in a while is challenge enough for me, but thank you for your advice.

Ridiculous amounts of savnig and loading mean you can still play through the game sloppily...you just start to use your metaknowledge of what is coming up to cheat if you find a place that struggles.

That's right, I use my metaknowledge and get through more cleanly, if you don't like that, don't do it. I prefer that to having to set the game to a lower difficulty setting, which is what I do if the game only allows checkpoints.

[Wrath of Dagon]

You can avoid that situation in either case, the difference is with medkits you have to use your head, with regen it's done for you so you can just plough through.

 

Like I said before that's really not true.

Your example was healing during combat, I was talking about healing in between combat. I hate games that throw waves of enemies at you non-stop, and DX certainly didn't do that.

[Moatilliatta]

So we haven't talked about voice acting yet. Surely we can all agree that it should improve, right? The asians in Deus Ex were rather freaky because of this.

[alanschu]

Any reason I give you you can call rationalization. Rationalization of what exactly?

 

Of the fact that essentially what you do is self-regen yourself via saving and loading, and don't really play the game for the competition of the game. You said that saving and loading is better than proceeding through the game sloppily, yet your saving and loading still allows you to play through the game sloppily. You just get to redo parts, and god forbid if you messed up and have no medkits, 1 health, and a wall of guys to fight through.

 

That's right, I use my metaknowledge and get through more cleanly, if you don't like that, don't do it. I prefer that to having to set the game to a lower difficulty setting, which is what I do if the game only allows checkpoints.

 

 

Odd that when I said the same to you, it was unacceptable. Just because the game will allow you to take more chances in combat, doesn't mean you have to.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Difference is, saving is out of game, and med pacs are in game. To an extent you have a point, if you can't save during the level it makes you careful just like having limited health would do. The problem is, it's far more tedious to start over the level from the beginning and redo everything you've already accomplished successfully than to reload right after the battle if you died or survived but used up so much health you may not make it to the end. The second alternative gives more choices to the player, which I consider a good thing.

[alanschu]

The problem is, it's far more tedious to start over the level from the beginning and redo everything you've already accomplished successfully than to reload right after the battle if you died or survived but used up so much health you may not make it to the end.

 

You're right, that's the problem. The thing is, not everyone saves and loads so frequently, so there ARE people that indeed have to restart entire levels because they didn't realize they used up too much health 30 minutes ago.

[Wrath of Dagon]

But if they do that once, wouldn't they remember to watch their health more closely next time? Besides, it they don't save during the level, when they die they'll have to start over again anyway.

 

Edit: What I do is only save when I'm in relatively good shape, i.e. still have enough health and resources to continue. That way if I die, I just go to the nearest point from which I can proceed reasonably well.

Edited October 7, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon