Hail Lightside!

[Jediphile]

I don't need to quote, just read above. I'm kind of going back and forth between replying to the different people so it might be confusing who I'm talking to, and I'm sorry.

 

1. Therefore proving the Dark Side is better since even lightsider's often resort to its power. Doing such will probably lead you to the dark side eventually anyway.

 

2. Do you mean that Jedi can be great without fighting? While this may be true, I am simply pointing out that the Sith are not bound by any morals or laws to prevent them from doing what needs to be done. Take for example the movie, "Saving Private Ryan."

If you remember in the movie they capture that Nazi but let him go, and in the end he comes back to kill half of them.

A Sith would have just slaughtered the guy and saved themselves from later trouble, but the Jedi would be bound to treat him morally and would have let him go. Thus, the Jedi are defeated because they showed mercy and allowed an enemy to live.

 

3. Exactly, you cannot use one example of a fight between two people to decide which side is stronger. If I remember the fight correctly Anakin actually seemed to be on the winning side except he was too overconfident in himself, a flaw of the character, not the Dark Side. Anakin WAS more powerful though.

 

4. I watched the movie last night. The whole time the fight was completely one-sided, Yoda did not stand a chance. The reason he didn't have anything to hold on to was because Palpatine was chucking chair things at him and he had to stay on the move. And lightning wasn't exactly useless, he hit Yoda with it once and hurt him badly, and later when Yoda absorbed it, its power still blew him off the senate pad.

 

5. Jediphile really said all that needs to be said.

 

1. Nah - I missed the Heal powers way too much playing DS, so I don't think that holds. Heck, even Luke used Force Choke in RotJ, and he became the jedi grand master. It's how you use it, not what you use. Using Force Push to push the helpless soldiers over the ege to fall to their deaths DS if incapacitating them with Stun powers is just as viable an option for you, even though Force Push is a neutral power.

 

2. No, the sith are bound by moral codes as well, or rather a lack of them. I might misinterpret you, and if that is the case I apologize in advance, but this sounds awfully like the classic D&D argument that "chaotic evil is more "free" because you're not bound by ethics and can do whatever you want". But aligments or moral codes are not straight jackets - they are descriptions of what sort of a person a character is. If the person is moral and ethical, he follows a moral code and will not do evil things. It can limit a person at times, sure, but being evil and selfish does not make you more "free" somehow, because still defines you by an "anti-moral code" or lack of a moral code. If you're like that, then you do selfish acts. Suddenly choosing to good is not an option, because then you're not behaving according to the character you've defined yourself as, which means you have moral inconsistency and that you're probably facing an identity crisis. Sorry, but I've had far too many players argue that way in my various RPG campaigns over the years to fall for that argument...

 

3. I agree. Anakin was more powerful. He was not, however, more experienced, and he was also arrogant about his power. Those are the reasons he lost, not because Obi-Wan was stronger. Anakin was just overconfident and untrained in his true potential, and that virtually always leads to disaster, whereas Obi-wan knew his limits and strengths and played to them.

 

Rule no. 24. I will maintain a realistic assessment of my strengths and weaknesses. Even though this takes some of the fun out of the job, at least I will never utter the line "No, this cannot be! I AM INVINCIBLE!!!" (After that, death is usually instantaneous.)

 

4. I wouldn't call it one-sided or say Yoda didn't have a chance. I thought he had a fair chance. But he did lose and admitted it. In the end Sidious was just too tough. The film has a major plothole there, though. We know the jedi don't have a code of "it must a one-on-one fight" because Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fought together against Darth Maul two-to-one in Episode I. Yoda and Obi-Wan are both there on Coruscant with Sidious, while Vader is on Mustafar. So why the heck don't they stay together and take Sidious down? Surely they would have stood a better chance two-to-one than Yoda alone against Sidious... And after that, they could have taken Vader on together. I've always desperately needed an excuse for why they could not do that, but the plot never gave us one.

 

5. Thanks.

[Albion72]

I don't need to quote, just read above. I'm kind of going back and forth between replying to the different people so it might be confusing who I'm talking to, and I'm sorry.

 

1. Therefore proving the Dark Side is better since even lightsider's often resort to its power. Doing such will probably lead you to the dark side eventually anyway.

 

2. Do you mean that Jedi can be great without fighting? While this may be true, I am simply pointing out that the Sith are not bound by any morals or laws to prevent them from doing what needs to be done. Take for example the movie, "Saving Private Ryan."

If you remember in the movie they capture that Nazi but let him go, and in the end he comes back to kill half of them.

A Sith would have just slaughtered the guy and saved themselves from later trouble, but the Jedi would be bound to treat him morally and would have let him go. Thus, the Jedi are defeated because they showed mercy and allowed an enemy to live.

 

3. Exactly, you cannot use one example of a fight between two people to decide which side is stronger. If I remember the fight correctly Anakin actually seemed to be on the winning side except he was too overconfident in himself, a flaw of the character, not the Dark Side. Anakin WAS more powerful though.

 

4. I watched the movie last night. The whole time the fight was completely one-sided, Yoda did not stand a chance. The reason he didn't have anything to hold on to was because Palpatine was chucking chair things at him and he had to stay on the move. And lightning wasn't exactly useless, he hit Yoda with it once and hurt him badly, and later when Yoda absorbed it, its power still blew him off the senate pad.

 

5. Jediphile really said all that needs to be said.

 

 

1. Lightsiders dont' resort to its power, they give in to temptation of power, which eventually leads to their downfall. DS users have no control. Thats why perhaps Revan was so feared. He had some measure of control.

 

2. The Jedi spend more time learning about the force, this balances out the equation of just going and killing someone right away. *On the Saving Private Ryan note* - The Jedi would've imprisoned him, sentenced him to a trial, and by the time it was all through WWII would be over. If it wasn't, they wouldn't release him at some random place in France.

 

3. Agreed to some degree (Oo, lol) but, I don't ever remember seeing Anakin on the "winning side". The fight constantly shifted. Anakin managed to choke Obi-Wan then Obi-wan got a few kicks in and nearly got him with a lightsaber. Anakin was indeed blind with power (another drawback to the DS). Anakin may be younger, but wasn't he composed of only midi-chlorians? That right there plus your instant *DS Power* should've made him able to deal with obi easier.

 

4. Eh? That fight was more in favor of Yoda until Yoda absorbed Sidious' lightning (Which BLEW BOTH THEM away from eachother, it didn't just effect Yoda). ***OFF TOPIC MOVIE BLOOPER*** - You at first see Sidious falling, with no IMAGE of a Railing/Bar for him to grab onto, it then shows yoda then goes back to Sidious... and walla, theres a perfect bar there for him.*** END BLOOPER *** - I'd like to have seen that part reversed, what would've happened.

 

5. No comment

 

 

Earlier Post Reference: Someoen said not to mention LS LightSide powers in this debate. There are some in the movies. I will ist'em.

 

1. Knight Speed (Upgraded/degred not sure)

 

2. Breach Control (More or so Universal)

 

3. Most likely Knight Valor if they can lightsaber duel with Sith who gained strength through DS transfiguration.

 

4. Force Jump (Universal

 

DS powers I've seen in movies

 

1. Force Lightning/Storm

 

2. Force Choke (More or so Universal)

 

3. People who have played Dark Side in KOTOR post'em please, you are more knowledgeable.

 

Of course we are not going to see Death Field or Stasis Field or Force Energy Resitance (That would look silly in the movie, a purple field aroudn a guy...)

 

 

REMEMBER to not take things like this so serious, I intended this forum for fun debate, not fanboism. We are gearing towards an offensive forum, lets gear away for it (Or if you are Rping darkside... ahem). lol

 

 

THEORY: About Yoda's age, this is true.... What if it is only possible to become "so" powerful before it ends or before you become like Nihilus, animalistic? That would auto-balance all arguments.

Edited June 25, 2008 by Albion72

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I see some strawmen!

[Jediphile]

1. Lightsiders dont' resort to its power, they give in to temptation of power, which eventually leads to their downfall. DS users have no control. Thats why perhaps Revan was so feared. He had some measure of control.

 

2. The Jedi spend more time learning about the force, this balances out the equation of just going and killing someone right away. *On the Saving Private Ryan note* - The Jedi would've imprisoned him, sentenced him to a trial, and by the time it was all through WWII would be over. If it wasn't, they wouldn't release him at some random place in France.

 

3. Agreed to some degree (Oo, lol) but, I don't ever remember seeing Anakin on the "winning side". The fight constantly shifted. Anakin managed to choke Obi-Wan then Obi-wan got a few kicks in and nearly got him with a lightsaber. Anakin was indeed blind with power (another drawback to the DS). Anakin may be younger, but wasn't he composed of only midi-chlorians? That right there plus your instant *DS Power* should've made him able to deal with obi easier.

 

4. Eh? That fight was more in favor of Yoda until Yoda absorbed Sidious' lightning (Which BLEW BOTH THEM away from eachother, it didn't just effect Yoda). ***OFF TOPIC MOVIE BLOOPER*** - You at first see Sidious falling, with no IMAGE of a Railing/Bar for him to grab onto, it then shows yoda then goes back to Sidious... and walla, theres a perfect bar there for him.*** END BLOOPER *** - I'd like to have seen that part reversed, what would've happened.

 

5. No comment

 

 

1. Just because Malak or Sion are blunt instruments lusting for power, and Nihilus too in his own way, doesn't mean that all sith are. Revan's measure of control is not unique. Palpatine is about as wary, and Kreia is far more so than both of them. Besides, it's not like lightsiders don't resort to DS powers. And it's not a problem as such, if they do. The lies in whether they get tempted by the power. As Belaya puts in in KotOR1, "You should be proud of your accomplishment... but never forget that you still have much to learn.As your power grows you will constantly face temptations to slip to the dark side. This is the eternal struggle of the Jedi." Using DS powers is not a problem as such. The problem is that they usually give power to those who use it, and they then become tempted by that power.

 

2. Actually, that the jedi would both sentence and punish the man is part of their problem, as it makes them both judge and jury as well as the policeman. That's too much power for anyone. And who are the jedi responsible to in the end? Only other jedi. Nice little vicious circle, isn't it? The jedi did better in the prequel movies, because they acted as policemen, but did not meddle in politics. But of course, Palpatine skillfully used that against them, too...

 

3. Anakin is blinded by power BECAUSE he has a high medi-chlorian count and so is powerful with the force. He has all that power thrown on him, and that makes it far more difficult for him to resist the temptation to use it. After all, if you have power to stop the suffering of the innocent, but are told you can't, because it will corrupt you, then what would you do? I see Revan in a similar manner. I don't see him as the ultimate uber-jedi/sith like some fanboys do, but I do see him as one of the more potent jedi/sith of his time, and with all that power, he could not bear to just sit and watch the innocent die on the Outer Rim while the jedi order did nothing. He knew he could make a difference, and that pushed him to act. That gave him power, which eventually corrupted him. Yes, Anakin is overconfident, but that's not all there was to it IMHO.

 

4. I disagree. The fight was very evenly matched. Sure, Sidious has more posturing and "you cannot win"-comments. But come, the guy is THE sith lord - of course he has to brag. He just destroyed the jedi order and fooled the republic into becoming HIS empire. Surely that gives him bragging rights And it was evenly matched until Yoda lost his touch and lost the fight.

 

5. Hmm... "Qui tacet consentire videtur."

[Bass-GameMaster]

If Im correct Obi-Wan used Ataru and so did Anakin... Obi-Wan had already mastered it so of course he knew his limits and own potential which is why he defeated Anakin. I think he actually went easy on him.

[walkerguy]

5. @Jediphile: Ego discrepo, vos es a stolidus.

 

I agree with the lightside myself, the dark will forever be both disgustingly evil and coop-crazy. Justice! Life! Not looking like a "mutantized-stonehead"!

[DeathScepter]

To BassMaster: Obi Wan and Anakin do pratice Ataru but Obi Wan master and favor Soresu. Where as Anakin mastered Djem So and Shien.

 

They are evenlly match but Anakin's force jump was his own downfall like Darth Maul not finishing Obi Wan at the Naboo Palace Reactor.

 

 

Both of their mistakes were exploited by Obi Wan in those fights.

[Darth Clumber]

1. Lightsiders dont' resort to its power, they give in to temptation of power, which eventually leads to their downfall. DS users have no control. Thats why perhaps Revan was so feared. He had some measure of control.

 

2. The Jedi spend more time learning about the force, this balances out the equation of just going and killing someone right away. *On the Saving Private Ryan note* - The Jedi would've imprisoned him, sentenced him to a trial, and by the time it was all through WWII would be over. If it wasn't, they wouldn't release him at some random place in France.

 

3. Agreed to some degree (Oo, lol) but, I don't ever remember seeing Anakin on the "winning side". The fight constantly shifted. Anakin managed to choke Obi-Wan then Obi-wan got a few kicks in and nearly got him with a lightsaber. Anakin was indeed blind with power (another drawback to the DS). Anakin may be younger, but wasn't he composed of only midi-chlorians? That right there plus your instant *DS Power* should've made him able to deal with obi easier.

 

4. Eh? That fight was more in favor of Yoda until Yoda absorbed Sidious' lightning (Which BLEW BOTH THEM away from eachother, it didn't just effect Yoda). ***OFF TOPIC MOVIE BLOOPER*** - You at first see Sidious falling, with no IMAGE of a Railing/Bar for him to grab onto, it then shows yoda then goes back to Sidious... and walla, theres a perfect bar there for him.*** END BLOOPER *** - I'd like to have seen that part reversed, what would've happened.

 

5. No comment

 

 

1. Just because Malak or Sion are blunt instruments lusting for power, and Nihilus too in his own way, doesn't mean that all sith are. Revan's measure of control is not unique. Palpatine is about as wary, and Kreia is far more so than both of them. Besides, it's not like lightsiders don't resort to DS powers. And it's not a problem as such, if they do. The lies in whether they get tempted by the power. As Belaya puts in in KotOR1, "You should be proud of your accomplishment... but never forget that you still have much to learn.As your power grows you will constantly face temptations to slip to the dark side. This is the eternal struggle of the Jedi." Using DS powers is not a problem as such. The problem is that they usually give power to those who use it, and they then become tempted by that power.

 

2. Actually, that the jedi would both sentence and punish the man is part of their problem, as it makes them both judge and jury as well as the policeman. That's too much power for anyone. And who are the jedi responsible to in the end? Only other jedi. Nice little vicious circle, isn't it? The jedi did better in the prequel movies, because they acted as policemen, but did not meddle in politics. But of course, Palpatine skillfully used that against them, too...

 

3. Anakin is blinded by power BECAUSE he has a high medi-chlorian count and so is powerful with the force. He has all that power thrown on him, and that makes it far more difficult for him to resist the temptation to use it. After all, if you have power to stop the suffering of the innocent, but are told you can't, because it will corrupt you, then what would you do? I see Revan in a similar manner. I don't see him as the ultimate uber-jedi/sith like some fanboys do, but I do see him as one of the more potent jedi/sith of his time, and with all that power, he could not bear to just sit and watch the innocent die on the Outer Rim while the jedi order did nothing. He knew he could make a difference, and that pushed him to act. That gave him power, which eventually corrupted him. Yes, Anakin is overconfident, but that's not all there was to it IMHO.

 

4. I disagree. The fight was very evenly matched. Sure, Sidious has more posturing and "you cannot win"-comments. But come, the guy is THE sith lord - of course he has to brag. He just destroyed the jedi order and fooled the republic into becoming HIS empire. Surely that gives him bragging rights And it was evenly matched until Yoda lost his touch and lost the fight.

 

5. Hmm... "Qui tacet consentire videtur."

 

 

1. Albion- DS has no control over their power? Jedi are less in control than the Sith, the Jedi are slaves to the force and do everything because it is the will of the force, the Sith simply use the force for whatever serves their own needs, they are COMPLETELY in control of their power.

 

Jediphile- using DS powers as a Jedi leads to the DS because these powers tend to be more destructive and deathfull, something that the Jedi try to stay away from and using such powers means you have ALREADY been tempted by the power it grants you, you have simply not admitted it yet. "To fall is a quiet thing," or something (Kreia says is it)

 

2. Albion-The Jedi's methods takes longer though, the DS is a quicker path to the same strength over the force. About Saving Private Ryan, the people were on a mission and didn't exactly have the time to stop where they were and wait till WW2 was over having a trial in the middle of nowhere, they had things to do. It would have been too difficult to bring him along so the choice would be kill him or let him go, the Jedi would let him go and pay for it later.

 

Jediphile-which shows the Jedi seek power just as much as the Sith do but aren't willing to admit it. The Sith are at least truthful about their intentions.

 

3. Albion- it didn't really seem to be that even and shifting the whole time to me. We have one part where Anakin almost cuts Obi-Wan's head off with his own lightsaber until Obi-Wan manages to barely hit him off, and parts where they are saber-locked that Anakin using one hand against Obi's two hands and winning. Anakin being blind with power was a fault of his character, not the DS. There have been many Sith who know their abilities well and aren't too overconfident. On another note, the LS actually made the Jedi more blind than any Sith. They trusted too much, allowing Palpatine to rise to power and allowing Anakin to be seduced by the dark side, all without them knowing.

 

Jediphile- I don't really see anything to argue here. You're pretty much giving the facts.

 

4. Albion- the whole time Yoda is flying around the room, just staying clear of Palpatine's attacks. Their postitions wouldn't have been reversed because Palpatine had a better position to fight from (the center of the pad) because HE wasn't on the defensive. It was Yoda's fault he was in a bad postion to resist the blast.

 

Jediphile- Yoda was on the defensive the whole time, it wasn't very even except in the beginning when they were fighting with lightsabers.

 

5. uhhh...translation please?

[Albion72]

1. Lightsiders dont' resort to its power, they give in to temptation of power, which eventually leads to their downfall. DS users have no control. Thats why perhaps Revan was so feared. He had some measure of control.

 

2. The Jedi spend more time learning about the force, this balances out the equation of just going and killing someone right away. *On the Saving Private Ryan note* - The Jedi would've imprisoned him, sentenced him to a trial, and by the time it was all through WWII would be over. If it wasn't, they wouldn't release him at some random place in France.

 

3. Agreed to some degree (Oo, lol) but, I don't ever remember seeing Anakin on the "winning side". The fight constantly shifted. Anakin managed to choke Obi-Wan then Obi-wan got a few kicks in and nearly got him with a lightsaber. Anakin was indeed blind with power (another drawback to the DS). Anakin may be younger, but wasn't he composed of only midi-chlorians? That right there plus your instant *DS Power* should've made him able to deal with obi easier.

 

4. Eh? That fight was more in favor of Yoda until Yoda absorbed Sidious' lightning (Which BLEW BOTH THEM away from eachother, it didn't just effect Yoda). ***OFF TOPIC MOVIE BLOOPER*** - You at first see Sidious falling, with no IMAGE of a Railing/Bar for him to grab onto, it then shows yoda then goes back to Sidious... and walla, theres a perfect bar there for him.*** END BLOOPER *** - I'd like to have seen that part reversed, what would've happened.

 

5. No comment

 

 

1. Just because Malak or Sion are blunt instruments lusting for power, and Nihilus too in his own way, doesn't mean that all sith are. Revan's measure of control is not unique. Palpatine is about as wary, and Kreia is far more so than both of them. Besides, it's not like lightsiders don't resort to DS powers. And it's not a problem as such, if they do. The lies in whether they get tempted by the power. As Belaya puts in in KotOR1, "You should be proud of your accomplishment... but never forget that you still have much to learn.As your power grows you will constantly face temptations to slip to the dark side. This is the eternal struggle of the Jedi." Using DS powers is not a problem as such. The problem is that they usually give power to those who use it, and they then become tempted by that power.

 

2. Actually, that the jedi would both sentence and punish the man is part of their problem, as it makes them both judge and jury as well as the policeman. That's too much power for anyone. And who are the jedi responsible to in the end? Only other jedi. Nice little vicious circle, isn't it? The jedi did better in the prequel movies, because they acted as policemen, but did not meddle in politics. But of course, Palpatine skillfully used that against them, too...

 

3. Anakin is blinded by power BECAUSE he has a high medi-chlorian count and so is powerful with the force. He has all that power thrown on him, and that makes it far more difficult for him to resist the temptation to use it. After all, if you have power to stop the suffering of the innocent, but are told you can't, because it will corrupt you, then what would you do? I see Revan in a similar manner. I don't see him as the ultimate uber-jedi/sith like some fanboys do, but I do see him as one of the more potent jedi/sith of his time, and with all that power, he could not bear to just sit and watch the innocent die on the Outer Rim while the jedi order did nothing. He knew he could make a difference, and that pushed him to act. That gave him power, which eventually corrupted him. Yes, Anakin is overconfident, but that's not all there was to it IMHO.

 

4. I disagree. The fight was very evenly matched. Sure, Sidious has more posturing and "you cannot win"-comments. But come, the guy is THE sith lord - of course he has to brag. He just destroyed the jedi order and fooled the republic into becoming HIS empire. Surely that gives him bragging rights And it was evenly matched until Yoda lost his touch and lost the fight.

 

5. Hmm... "Qui tacet consentire videtur."

 

 

1. Albion- DS has no control over their power? Jedi are less in control than the Sith, the Jedi are slaves to the force and do everything because it is the will of the force, the Sith simply use the force for whatever serves their own needs, they are COMPLETELY in control of their power.

Which is why the Sith has to be evil when hes a Dark Side user? He CAN'T do good? He CAN'T help someone out? Give me an example of a Sith saying, "Sure, here's a few credits and a bit mroe on top of thta to help out!" to someone begging for money.

 

Yoda: "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" I believe the canon Revan even tells a dying Malak, "The Dark Side isn't any stronger than the Light Malak". Malak agrees then dies. (The dialogue is what I CHOSE personally.

 

Jediphile- using DS powers as a Jedi leads to the DS because these powers tend to be more destructive and deathfull, something that the Jedi try to stay away from and using such powers means you have ALREADY been tempted by the power it grants you, you have simply not admitted it yet. "To fall is a quiet thing," or something (Kreia says is it)

 

While lightside powers enhance your abilities but don't attack anyone, it balances out IMHO.

 

2. Albion-The Jedi's methods takes longer though, the DS is a quicker path to the same strength over the force. About Saving Private Ryan, the people were on a mission and didn't exactly have the time to stop where they were and wait till WW2 was over having a trial in the middle of nowhere, they had things to do. It would have been too difficult to bring him along so the choice would be kill him or let him go, the Jedi would let him go and pay for it later.

 

I already said the DS was quicker. But every DS user will fall from power or be redeemed and fix what he did (Revan). No Sith order will rule forever. We don't know enough about the True Sith except that it is possibly the race which doesn't count.

 

Jediphile-which shows the Jedi seek power just as much as the Sith do but aren't willing to admit it. The Sith are at least truthful about their intentions.

The Jedi seek power? Please explain how. Every example of the Jedi's "Power" is only confined to their order. They keep a tight rule but for good reasons. The Jedi do make mistakes, it is sentient nature. And you'd be crazy to not seek to better your abilities, that'd sound stupid. "Do not train with the force, let the Sith get strong, we don't want to be able to fight them!" Big doh.

 

3. Albion- it didn't really seem to be that even and shifting the whole time to me. We have one part where Anakin almost cuts Obi-Wan's head off with his own lightsaber until Obi-Wan manages to barely hit him off, and parts where they are saber-locked that Anakin using one hand against Obi's two hands and winning. Anakin being blind with power was a fault of his character, not the DS. There have been many Sith who know their abilities well and aren't too overconfident. On another note, the LS actually made the Jedi more blind than any Sith. They trusted too much, allowing Palpatine to rise to power and allowing Anakin to be seduced by the dark side, all without them knowing.

Its still even shifted, Obi-Wan manages to kick Anakin like 3 times and almost nearly makes Anakin fall off a cliff. The fight was meant to be equal..... except for that last bit. Was it that the LS blinded the Jedi, or that the Jedi couldn't just walk in and kill Palpatine due to Republic reasons? They sensed his plot ealry on.

Jediphile- I don't really see anything to argue here. You're pretty much giving the facts.

 

I disagree. He didn't have to "obtain" the power to stop innocents (padme) from Suffering/dying. That is the Jedi's JOB. If the future is set, you cannot change it. Prime example is Padme still dying. It can be argued that the Palpatine even lied about Plageuis' abilities to save people from death to lure Anakin... which it worked.

4. Albion- the whole time Yoda is flying around the room, just staying clear of Palpatine's attacks. Their postitions wouldn't have been reversed because Palpatine had a better position to fight from (the center of the pad) because HE wasn't on the defensive. It was Yoda's fault he was in a bad postion to resist the blast.

 

Yoda still had to draw heavily upon the force to dodge them, I'm sure the 3ft greenthing wasn't a natural acrobat. And he intercepts one of the Senate Chairs and sends it back at Palpatine. Palpatine lost his lightsaber to Yoda somewhere as well, can't remember where. Because Yoda jumps up to where Palpatine is and ignites his lightsaber. Palpatine has to resort to Force Shock.

 

 

Jediphile- Yoda was on the defensive the whole time, it wasn't very even except in the beginning when they were fighting with lightsabers.

Read above.

 

5. uhhh...translation please?

 

Agreed.

[Bass-GameMaster]

Thanks sceptor I had a feeling... But im pretty sure Obi-Wan mastered it.. it was Qui-Gon's form afterall. Which was his downfall, Maul's Juyo was far to agressive.

Edited June 26, 2008 by Bass-GameMaster

[Albion72]

Thanks sceptor I had a feeling... But im pretty sure Obi-Wan mastered it.. it was Qui-Gon's form afterall. Which was his downfall, Maul's Juyo was far to agressive.

 

EDIT: Why did I quote you? WOW!

 

Oh and also I think Qui-Gon (Jedi) figured out how to be a force ghost. Another Jedi accomplishment :D

Edited June 27, 2008 by Albion72

[DeathScepter]

i do think it is easier to be a force ghost than we think.

 

 

I was thinking of the Jedi and the Sith and Palptine little speech how they are similar. In Japanese Martial arts philosophy, there is a philosophy called Budo.

 

Jedi and Sith do pratice a form of Budo but with a slight difference in how they pratice Budo. Sith pratice Budo without compassion thus leading to the dark side. Also within Japanese history, There were Samurai that are complete **** and they are worthy of being called a Sith. Whereas Jedi pratice Budo with compassion, They are more of the Ideal of the Samurai should be. Honorable, loyal, compassionate.

 

 

Sith:Dark Budo

 

Jedi:Ideal Budo

[Albion72]

i do think it is easier to be a force ghost than we think.

 

 

I was thinking of the Jedi and the Sith and Palptine little speech how they are similar. In Japanese Martial arts philosophy, there is a philosophy called Budo.

 

Jedi and Sith do pratice a form of Budo but with a slight difference in how they pratice Budo. Sith pratice Budo without compassion thus leading to the dark side. Also within Japanese history, There were Samurai that are complete **** and they are worthy of being called a Sith. Whereas Jedi pratice Budo with compassion, They are more of the Ideal of the Samurai should be. Honorable, loyal, compassionate.

 

 

Sith:Dark Budo

 

Jedi:Ideal Budo

 

Well no one has done it till Qui-Gon did it... Also I'm not sure Dark Side users CAN be force ghosts since the Netherworld of the Force for Dark Siders is..... like hell pretty much.

[Darth Clumber]

Do we know that it is hell? I didn't really think that there was heaven or hell type things with Star Wars, i thought you just became one with the force.

[Jediphile]

Well no one has done it till Qui-Gon did it... Also I'm not sure Dark Side users CAN be force ghosts since the Netherworld of the Force for Dark Siders is..... like hell pretty much.

 

Freedon Nadd and Marka Ragnos would beg to differ... And not politely, either.

[Darth Clumber]

1. Albion- DS has no control over their power? Jedi are less in control than the Sith, the Jedi are slaves to the force and do everything because it is the will of the force, the Sith simply use the force for whatever serves their own needs, they are COMPLETELY in control of their power.

Which is why the Sith has to be evil when hes a Dark Side user? He CAN'T do good? He CAN'T help someone out? Give me an example of a Sith saying, "Sure, here's a few credits and a bit mroe on top of thta to help out!" to someone begging for money.

 

Sure, a Sith could do that if it aided him in any way. Jedi on the other hand would be forced by their own moral conscience to aid the begger and lose some of their money in the process, while a Sith would walk away with his pockets still full, and maybe a little more if the begger had any money on his corpse. The Sith WILL do anything so long as it helps them out

 

Yoda: "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" I believe the canon Revan even tells a dying Malak, "The Dark Side isn't any stronger than the Light Malak". Malak agrees then dies. (The dialogue is what I CHOSE personally.

 

Jediphile- using DS powers as a Jedi leads to the DS because these powers tend to be more destructive and deathfull, something that the Jedi try to stay away from and using such powers means you have ALREADY been tempted by the power it grants you, you have simply not admitted it yet. "To fall is a quiet thing," or something (Kreia says is it)

 

While lightside powers enhance your abilities but don't attack anyone, it balances out IMHO.

 

Say what you want, but DS powersw are stronger. Enhancing abilities are in games just to balance it out anyway

 

2. Albion-The Jedi's methods takes longer though, the DS is a quicker path to the same strength over the force. About Saving Private Ryan, the people were on a mission and didn't exactly have the time to stop where they were and wait till WW2 was over having a trial in the middle of nowhere, they had things to do. It would have been too difficult to bring him along so the choice would be kill him or let him go, the Jedi would let him go and pay for it later.

 

I already said the DS was quicker. But every DS user will fall from power or be redeemed and fix what he did (Revan). No Sith order will rule forever. We don't know enough about the True Sith except that it is possibly the race which doesn't count.

 

How can you know all of that? You can see the whole future? WOW! And for the record some ancient Sith Empire lasted for a pretty long time and they had some ruler who lead them for a really long time before he died. No Sith order will rule forever but neither will any Jedi, or Republic. It's just the way things go. I'm pretty sure Revan is the only Sith Lord to be redeemed and turncoat and his was a special case, he didn't even know who he was most of the time.

 

Jediphile-which shows the Jedi seek power just as much as the Sith do but aren't willing to admit it. The Sith are at least truthful about their intentions.

The Jedi seek power? Please explain how. Every example of the Jedi's "Power" is only confined to their order. They keep a tight rule but for good reasons. The Jedi do make mistakes, it is sentient nature. And you'd be crazy to not seek to better your abilities, that'd sound stupid. "Do not train with the force, let the Sith get strong, we don't want to be able to fight them!" Big doh.

 

Jedi power if not limited to their order. They act as policemen to the Republic. Take Episode 3 for example. The Jedi can arrest the head of the government without a warrant or evidence of any kind. Then Windu later decides to excecute his prisoner without trial or anything. THAT is why the Jedi seek power

 

3. Albion- it didn't really seem to be that even and shifting the whole time to me. We have one part where Anakin almost cuts Obi-Wan's head off with his own lightsaber until Obi-Wan manages to barely hit him off, and parts where they are saber-locked that Anakin using one hand against Obi's two hands and winning. Anakin being blind with power was a fault of his character, not the DS. There have been many Sith who know their abilities well and aren't too overconfident. On another note, the LS actually made the Jedi more blind than any Sith. They trusted too much, allowing Palpatine to rise to power and allowing Anakin to be seduced by the dark side, all without them knowing.

Its still even shifted, Obi-Wan manages to kick Anakin like 3 times and almost nearly makes Anakin fall off a cliff. The fight was meant to be equal..... except for that last bit. Was it that the LS blinded the Jedi, or that the Jedi couldn't just walk in and kill Palpatine due to Republic reasons? They sensed his plot ealry on.

 

I'm done arguing about Anakin vs. Obi, it's irrelevant. What I mean is that they could not see a Sith Lord right in front of them, and they trusted him to take all that power and step down afterwards without a fight. They were also blind to Anakin's relationship with Padme and they were blind to Anakin's slow journey to the DS

 

Jediphile- I don't really see anything to argue here. You're pretty much giving the facts.

 

I disagree. He didn't have to "obtain" the power to stop innocents (padme) from Suffering/dying. That is the Jedi's JOB. If the future is set, you cannot change it. Prime example is Padme still dying. It can be argued that the Palpatine even lied about Plageuis' abilities to save people from death to lure Anakin... which it worked.

 

Maybe he didn't, but that's what Anakin thought

 

4. Albion- the whole time Yoda is flying around the room, just staying clear of Palpatine's attacks. Their postitions wouldn't have been reversed because Palpatine had a better position to fight from (the center of the pad) because HE wasn't on the defensive. It was Yoda's fault he was in a bad postion to resist the blast.

 

Yoda still had to draw heavily upon the force to dodge them, I'm sure the 3ft greenthing wasn't a natural acrobat. And he intercepts one of the Senate Chairs and sends it back at Palpatine. Palpatine lost his lightsaber to Yoda somewhere as well, can't remember where. Because Yoda jumps up to where Palpatine is and ignites his lightsaber. Palpatine has to resort to Force Shock.

 

My point was that Yoda was forced to hop around and doge because he was on the defensive and he didn't have a good handhold because he couldn't because he was on the defensive

 

Jediphile- Yoda was on the defensive the whole time, it wasn't very even except in the beginning when they were fighting with lightsabers.

Read above.

 

5. uhhh...translation please?

 

Agreed.

[Albion72]

I discovered some new points to aid in my argument saying the Light Side isn't any "weaker" then the Dark.

 

1. Plo Koon invented a Light Side force shock called something like Emerald Lightning usually appearing Green or Yellow, there goes the number one DS force power.

 

2. There are a lot of Dark Side powers that are just in the games to balance it out as well. All you see int he movies as far as DS goes is shock and choke (if choke is even considered DS). Dominate Mind is used by everyone one time or another.

 

So really the major force powers for BOTH sides are really only

 

1. Shock and Emerald Lightning

 

2. Force Push, Choke Telekeneesis (sp?)

 

@Darth Clumber

 

Yoda is 850 or somethin years old, it was said on the star wars wiki that h ehad to draw heavily upon the force to be as agile as him during his old age. Just because he is dodging doesn't mean Palpatine is winning, lol.

 

@your remark about the Sith and beggar. I am not arguing that the life of a Jedi is easier, it right though. Ofc a Sith will be rich, he is evil. And no a Sith will never do good. Even if giving money to the beggar would get him information, he could just say, "Give me the info or I'll kill you right now!" and ignite his lightsaber.

 

@"Say what you want, but DS powers are stronger" read above. Give me an example of Death field actually being used or something lol. Force Crush is plausible although we never see it. And we also see enhancing LS powers in the movies, some powers are also under the "Powers and Abilities" section of certain Clone War Era Jedi. So not ALL of them are just in there. (Force Shield or w/e would be stupid to include in the movie. Look dad! A purple glowing field from nowhere!).

 

@your reply to me seeing the future. Of course I can't but I guess thats the whole flaw of my point. However, that "Sith" empire ruled because it was ruling over entire populations devoted to Sith teachings. They didn't have to "oppress" the masses because the masses were Sith themselves. Read about the Sith Race. Also Vader also redeemed himself by throwing Sidious into the reactor. And so far every Sith thats tried to conquer (except Palpatine because he was a genius instead of the "OMG I HAVE POWER START A WAR NOW! type guy, has died due to them thinking they can take everyone on.

 

@your excuse for saying the Jedi Seek power. Ummm, maybe you didn't notice but Palpatine was a SITH LORD? Ahem... Thats good enough reason to execute him to me. And besides, Palpatine said, "I AM THE SENATE" when Windu tried arresting him. A security recording of that is evidence enough of Palpatine's treachery. This argument of yours is flawed. And policeman doesn't mean they are corrupt. They wanted to arrest Palpatine for the good of the Galaxy not because they felt like it.

 

More arguments.

 

Taken from Wookieepedia:

 

"With experience, there were a seemingly infinite number of things a Jedi could achieve through use of the light side. This did not only apply to Jedi, of course, but indeed any Force-user. The Jedi used their powers to gain greater knowledge, in contrast to their ancient enemies, the Sith. Whereas the Sith would use their powers to try to rule the galaxy..."

 

Sounds like Jedi/Sith are on par to me.

 

Taken from Wookieepedia:

 

''...some Jedi thought of themselves as mere "tools" of the Force. Though this implied a lack of choice regarding an individual's fate, the Jedi, as leading proponents of the light side, insisted that it was, rather, "the ultimate free will." This they explained as being because the Force (at least the light side) did not compel anyone. A destiny could be accepted or spurned. And all choices along the way were free to make...''

 

Taken from Wookieepedia: (I don't think I need to type this anymore).

 

"The light side of the Force was generally harder to use than the dark side, this being because dark side Force powers are all aggressive and easily fueled by anger or hatred. This allowed dark-siders to advance faster, but they were not inherently more powerful than the light-siders. Light-sided Force abilities are virtually all defensive and passive in nature. While there are light side abilities for increasing ones strength or courage, or incapacitating an enemy, none of them are truly aggressive (with the notable exceptions of Electric Judgment and Sever Force).

Jedi using the Force.

Jedi using the Force.

 

* Alter Environment

* Animal Friendship

* Battlemind

* Combustion

* Cure Disease

* Cure Poison

* Dissipate Energy

* Droid Disable

* Electric Judgment

* Force Absorb

* Force Armor

* Force Blinding

* Force Enlightenment

* Force Healing

* Force Light

* Force Meld

* Force Persuasion

* Force Projection

* Force Protection

* Force Stun

* Force Stasis

* Force Valor

* Hibernation Trance

* Malacia

* Mind trick

* Morichro

* Plant Surge

* Protection Bubble

* Ray

* Revitalize

* Sever Force

* Shatterpoint

* Wall Of Light"

 

On the Dark Side:

"Many found the dark side to be addictive, being unable to resist its pull the more they subjected themselves to it. Dark side users became more powerful as their physical bodies slowly decayed..."

 

"Most Sith, such as Uthar Wynn and his apprentice Yuthura Ban, believed that they could even control the dark side, but in the end the dark side ended up controlling them.''

 

Supporting BOTH our Arguments:

 

"Dark Jedi and especially the Sith were capable of furthering their abilities more quickly than Jedi. According to the Jedi, the dark side was only easier to learn and use, and therefore more deceptive, while true power lay with the light. However, certain Sith Lords have appeared to be stronger than their Jedi opponents. Exar Kun was unstoppable until faced with an entire Jedi armada; the superior power of Darth Malak was acknowledged even by the Jedi (i.e. Bastila Shan, who explicitly states that she, and a fellow Jedi were no match for the Dark Lord); later on he could be seen quite effortlessly holding two Jedi in a death grip before killing them; Darth Nihilus destroyed an entire Jedi Council (along with every other sentient on Katarr) while only uttering the 'words' of his voice; Kreia (Darth Traya) almost effortlessly killed all members of another Jedi Council on Dantooine. During the fall of the Republic, Darth Sidious managed to slay three out of four Jedi Masters before eventually succumbing to the martial prowess of Mace Windu (and even this defeat may have been staged). Moreover, his climactic battle with Yoda

[Deadly_Nightshade]

You know ANYONE can edit Wookieepedia, don't you?

[Albion72]

You know ANYONE can edit Wookieepedia, don't you?

 

Yeah thats why all the sources are listed and you can do out of site research as well.

 

Anyone can edit wikipedia but do you see people screwing up topics for fun? I mean I'm sure someone has tried it but I'm sure its corrected really fast.

 

And besides, I'm sure if people saw mistakes they'd fix them.

 

I do all the time on Wikipedia (Spell checks etc).

 

State what you think was falsely edited from my above post please, so that I may delve more further into the research.

Or am I just starting a, "omg you can't win fight because I'll just say someone edited the topic!"

Edited June 28, 2008 by Albion72

[Deadly_Nightshade]

You cannot know that error will be fixed, nor can you assume that there are no errors on the page when you view it - and thus NO WIKI can be trusted. As for people "screwing up topics for fun," yeah I have seen that and I have seen people willingly edit articles to be extremely biased towards their own point of view. You put far too much trust in people's "good nature" if you think these things do not happen, nor are all of the edits "corrected." Also, you have, mainly, been using logical fallacies to support your points, and thus you must go back and address those points before you can make a completely valid argument.

 

Edit: Fine, here's you first point to examine: However, it must be noted that the vast majority of darksiders, Sith and Dark Jedi alike, have eventually been defeated by light side Force-users. Prove that statement and I will provide you with others.

 

Edit: Another quick one: Obi-Wan Kenobi defeated both Darth Maul and Darth Vader, despite being the less skilled combatant in both duels, Darth Malak was similarly defeated by Revan despite drawing on the massive dark power of the Star Forge, Darth Tyranus felt threatened by Anakin Skywalker and allowed his pride to blind him to Skywalker's true power, and Darth Sidious was defeated by Mace Windu.

Edited June 28, 2008 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Jediphile]

@your remark about the Sith and beggar. I am not arguing that the life of a Jedi is easier, it right though. Ofc a Sith will be rich, he is evil. And no a Sith will never do good. Even if giving money to the beggar would get him information, he could just say, "Give me the info or I'll kill you right now!" and ignite his lightsaber.

 

Actually, a real Sith would pay the money, say thank you, then slice the beggar in two and take his money. No, on second thought, he would slice the beggar in two and taken his money, and then say thank you.

 

So not ALL of them are just in there. (Force Shield or w/e would be stupid to include in the movie. Look dad! A purple glowing field from nowhere!).

 

You might just as well argue that they only put the effect in the game and that powers like Force Shield are used constantly in the movies, only we don't see them. There is no visible signs of Obi-Wan using Cure on Luke in Ep. IV, yet one moment he is on the ground knocked cold by sand people and the second he recovers as Ben bends over above him. For example, in the Star Ward D20 RPG, which KotOR is based on, force powers are skills, not granted powers, and some are sublte. Battlemind, for example, gives the user a bonus to his attacks, while Force Defense gives him a bonus to saves against force attacks, making it similar to Force Resistance in the computer games. I think we can assume such powers are used in the movies, yet we never see visible evidence of them, only the end effect.

 

@your excuse for saying the Jedi Seek power. Ummm, maybe you didn't notice but Palpatine was a SITH LORD? Ahem... Thats good enough reason to execute him to me. And besides, Palpatine said, "I AM THE SENATE" when Windu tried arresting him. A security recording of that is evidence enough of Palpatine's treachery. This argument of yours is flawed. And policeman doesn't mean they are corrupt. They wanted to arrest Palpatine for the good of the Galaxy not because they felt like it.

 

If Windu had a recording, then why didn't he just leave and present that to the senate instead of trying to kill his "prisoner"? Policemen are not allowed to execute murderers - that's for the court to decide. Policemen may kill, but they are permitted to do so only in obvious defense of their own life or that of others. There's an important distinction there. And when Windu persists to proceed to use lethal force, he oversteps the limits of the jedi because he tries to effect political change according to his own wishes in a system he is sworn to protect. If you want political change, then you join the next election - you don't sneak up from behind with a dagger. Now, of course Palpatine is evil and manipulative. He calculated this would happen. He needed it too. He thought the jedi would not be able to resist trying to remove him by force, which he could then later use to infer that they attempted a political coup d'etat to take power in the republic, effectively throwing liberty and democracy away. And he was right too. And Windu also violates the jedi code - the jedi don't kill their prisoners. That's exactly what he tried to do.

 

"Another fatal weakness that has been repeatedly illustrated in the dark side is a lack of focus that seems to stem from a reliance on emotions such a pride, anger, and fear, which heighten powers but also lead to clouded judgment. Thus dark-siders are often defeated by less powerful or skilled opponents: Obi-Wan Kenobi defeated both Darth Maul and Darth Vader, despite being the less skilled combatant in both duels, Darth Malak was similarly defeated by Revan despite drawing on the massive dark power of the Star Forge, Darth Tyranus felt threatened by Anakin Skywalker and allowed his pride to blind him to Skywalker's true power, and Darth Sidious was defeated by Mace Windu. Thus it would seem that the dark side offers a more tangible sort of power: one that is direct and physical, while the light side provides a more subtle kind of power , that of focus and understanding, one which dark-siders often fail to understand and tend to underestimate, often fatally."

 

The above sentence about Obi-Wan makes no sense to me. Yes, he was less skilled in combat than Darth Maul, but certainly not less skilled than Vader - Obi-Wan trained Vader and years if not decades of experience before that. Indeed, Obi-Wan won the duel on Mustafar exactly because he had greater experience with which to match Anakin's greater power.

[Albion72]

@your remark about the Sith and beggar. I am not arguing that the life of a Jedi is easier, it right though. Ofc a Sith will be rich, he is evil. And no a Sith will never do good. Even if giving money to the beggar would get him information, he could just say, "Give me the info or I'll kill you right now!" and ignite his lightsaber.

 

Actually, a real Sith would pay the money, say thank you, then slice the beggar in two and take his money. No, on second thought, he would slice the beggar in two and taken his money, and then say thank you.

 

So not ALL of them are just in there. (Force Shield or w/e would be stupid to include in the movie. Look dad! A purple glowing field from nowhere!).

 

You might just as well argue that they only put the effect in the game and that powers like Force Shield are used constantly in the movies, only we don't see them. There is no visible signs of Obi-Wan using Cure on Luke in Ep. IV, yet one moment he is on the ground knocked cold by sand people and the second he recovers as Ben bends over above him. For example, in the Star Ward D20 RPG, which KotOR is based on, force powers are skills, not granted powers, and some are sublte. Battlemind, for example, gives the user a bonus to his attacks, while Force Defense gives him a bonus to saves against force attacks, making it similar to Force Resistance in the computer games. I think we can assume such powers are used in the movies, yet we never see visible evidence of them, only the end effect.

 

@your excuse for saying the Jedi Seek power. Ummm, maybe you didn't notice but Palpatine was a SITH LORD? Ahem... Thats good enough reason to execute him to me. And besides, Palpatine said, "I AM THE SENATE" when Windu tried arresting him. A security recording of that is evidence enough of Palpatine's treachery. This argument of yours is flawed. And policeman doesn't mean they are corrupt. They wanted to arrest Palpatine for the good of the Galaxy not because they felt like it.

 

If Windu had a recording, then why didn't he just leave and present that to the senate instead of trying to kill his "prisoner"? Policemen are not allowed to execute murderers - that's for the court to decide. Policemen may kill, but they are permitted to do so only in obvious defense of their own life or that of others. There's an important distinction there. And when Windu persists to proceed to use lethal force, he oversteps the limits of the jedi because he tries to effect political change according to his own wishes in a system he is sworn to protect. If you want political change, then you join the next election - you don't sneak up from behind with a dagger. Now, of course Palpatine is evil and manipulative. He calculated this would happen. He needed it too. He thought the jedi would not be able to resist trying to remove him by force, which he could then later use to infer that they attempted a political coup d'etat to take power in the republic, effectively throwing liberty and democracy away. And he was right too. And Windu also violates the jedi code - the jedi don't kill their prisoners. That's exactly what he tried to do.

 

"Another fatal weakness that has been repeatedly illustrated in the dark side is a lack of focus that seems to stem from a reliance on emotions such a pride, anger, and fear, which heighten powers but also lead to clouded judgment. Thus dark-siders are often defeated by less powerful or skilled opponents: Obi-Wan Kenobi defeated both Darth Maul and Darth Vader, despite being the less skilled combatant in both duels, Darth Malak was similarly defeated by Revan despite drawing on the massive dark power of the Star Forge, Darth Tyranus felt threatened by Anakin Skywalker and allowed his pride to blind him to Skywalker's true power, and Darth Sidious was defeated by Mace Windu. Thus it would seem that the dark side offers a more tangible sort of power: one that is direct and physical, while the light side provides a more subtle kind of power , that of focus and understanding, one which dark-siders often fail to understand and tend to underestimate, often fatally."

 

The above sentence about Obi-Wan makes no sense to me. Yes, he was less skilled in combat than Darth Maul, but certainly not less skilled than Vader - Obi-Wan trained Vader and years if not decades of experience before that. Indeed, Obi-Wan won the duel on Mustafar exactly because he had greater experience with which to match Anakin's greater power.

 

1. You evil evil child. Lol.

 

2. Very possible

 

3. Because we are taking it way out of context. Policeman and Jedi are very different, just like a Sith is very different from a Chancellor. The Sith are sworn enemies of the Republic, no? And after reviewing history and seeing what Sith Lords can turn the galaxy into, I'm pretty sure that execution and then showing the security recording and then explaining to the masses what the Sith are (Since they probably forgot) would be logical. Yes Windu violated the code (Well would have, if he would've succeeded) but do you think the council or the galaxy would've been angry at him? Sure some confused citizens probably would've but thtas about it.

 

4. According to some people *ahem* Vader's turn the dark side multiplied his power by a lot (I disagree whole heartedly). but w/e. Its still true nonetheless with the less skilled part being debatable.

 

Funny how this argument is never ending, lol.

[Albion72]

You cannot know that error will be fixed, nor can you assume that there are no errors on the page when you view it - and thus NO WIKI can be trusted. As for people "screwing up topics for fun," yeah I have seen that and I have seen people willingly edit articles to be extremely biased towards their own point of view. You put far too much trust in people's "good nature" if you think these things do not happen, nor are all of the edits "corrected." Also, you have, mainly, been using logical fallacies to support your points, and thus you must go back and address those points before you can make a completely valid argument.

 

Edit: Fine, here's you first point to examine: However, it must be noted that the vast majority of darksiders, Sith and Dark Jedi alike, have eventually been defeated by light side Force-users. Prove that statement and I will provide you with others.

 

Edit: Another quick one: Obi-Wan Kenobi defeated both Darth Maul and Darth Vader, despite being the less skilled combatant in both duels, Darth Malak was similarly defeated by Revan despite drawing on the massive dark power of the Star Forge, Darth Tyranus felt threatened by Anakin Skywalker and allowed his pride to blind him to Skywalker's true power, and Darth Sidious was defeated by Mace Windu.

 

If you whole heartedly agree that the Dark Side is stronger than the Light Side because wookieepedia has more pros about the Light Side then I suggest you read the sources from which the topics were made and then compare them to the topics. I'm done trying to defend wookieepedia as all you will say next time is, "Anyone can edit it". Why isn't the Dark Side article saying things like "The Dark Side is so powerful" or w/e. Imo from what I've seen there are way more Dark Side fans out there than Light Side fans.

 

@First point: If you know half a hoot about the Star Wars Universe you should know that it is true... with maybe a couple exceptions like Sidious. (It can be argued that it was either the LS or DS in Vader that prompted him to defeat his master). Just think about every Sith lord who hasn't been executed by their apprentice (according to canon, the dragonball EU stuff imo... well w/e I guess it counts). has died to a Jedi/LS user. The above statement even says that "The vast majority" --- not all of the DS users, have been defeated by LS users. When I have the time I will post certain examples, maybe about five or ten, idk yet. I haven't had coffee yet (lol) and Saturday is "OMG DO YARD WORK OR WIFE YELLS AT YOU DAY".

 

@Second point: It can be easily assumed that Obi-Wan was less skilled than Darth Maul because Darth Maul was taking both Qui-Gon AND Obi-Wan at the same time, yet Darth Maul's clouded judgement mislead him to believe he had won before he killed him.

 

Second part is debatable between Anakin and Obi. Some believe (since Anakin is the Chosen one, yes confirmed by George Lucas) that when turning to the Dark Side his powers were enhanced due to that of his old training and his emotions. (I disagree however). Regardless, the above statement is true about "Clouded Focus"... (Why didn't he just... step on the land and then continue fighting... he had to jump?)

 

Next point please.

 

 

EDIT: Some quick examples.

 

1. Darth Malak was defeated by a redeemed Revan and even told Revan (This is from the game so no BS here), "You are much stronger now than you were as the Dark Lord of the Sith) Something to that degree.

 

2. Darth Vader if you consider him redeemed or just angry the Emperor doesn't care about his son.

 

3. Obi defeated Anakin but didn't kill him (Should've finished him off Imo)

 

4. Anakin (while no tturned) defeated Dooku.

 

5. Mace defeated Palpatine and then was betrayed.

 

6. Nihilus, Sion, Kreia were defeated by the LS Exile (according to Canon)

 

7. Darth Bandon got owned by Revan too.

 

8. Darth Maul by Obi.

 

9. Ajunta Pall goes back to the LS due to Revan (It wasn't a battle, more of Revan's persuasive way of thinking).

 

Well, I don't want to go through the WHOLE List of Sith to find ones, but there is a possibility that one detail is wrong that I might edit. It would seem a majority of the Sith Lords didn't get defeated by LS users, they were betrayed or they exiled themselves to preserve their spirit (Exar Kun). The ones who did invade the Republic eventually got owned, with the exception of Kun who retreated and transformed himself into a spirit.

Edited June 28, 2008 by Albion72

[Deadly_Nightshade]

You cannot know that error will be fixed, nor can you assume that there are no errors on the page when you view it - and thus NO WIKI can be trusted. As for people "screwing up topics for fun," yeah I have seen that and I have seen people willingly edit articles to be extremely biased towards their own point of view. You put far too much trust in people's "good nature" if you think these things do not happen, nor are all of the edits "corrected." Also, you have, mainly, been using logical fallacies to support your points, and thus you must go back and address those points before you can make a completely valid argument.

 

Edit: Fine, here's you first point to examine: However, it must be noted that the vast majority of darksiders, Sith and Dark Jedi alike, have eventually been defeated by light side Force-users. Prove that statement and I will provide you with others.

 

Edit: Another quick one: Obi-Wan Kenobi defeated both Darth Maul and Darth Vader, despite being the less skilled combatant in both duels, Darth Malak was similarly defeated by Revan despite drawing on the massive dark power of the Star Forge, Darth Tyranus felt threatened by Anakin Skywalker and allowed his pride to blind him to Skywalker's true power, and Darth Sidious was defeated by Mace Windu.

 

If you whole heartedly agree that the Dark Side is stronger than the Light Side because wookieepedia has more pros about the Light Side then I suggest you read the sources from which the topics were made and then compare them to the topics.

 

Did I ever say that, no I did not. Please stop building strawmen when arguing points. In fact, I believe that either one has its streangths and weaknesses - so the strogest force user is one who embraces both.

 

I'm done trying to defend wookieepedia as all you will say next time is, "Anyone can edit it".

 

I said more than that, please stop trying to condense my arguments into contrite little sound-bytes and respond to the points raised.

 

If you know half a hoot about the Star Wars Universe you should know that it is true...

 

Maybe You should spend more time reading the Extended Universe. As for the "five or ten examples," sure post them - but be prepared for five to ten examples of Darkside users who have not been killed by Jedi.

 

It can be easily assumed that Obi-Wan was less skilled than Darth Maul

 

I never disagreed on that point, however, according to the Episode III Book -I'll try to find my copy for the exact quote if you demand it- Obi-Wan was more skilled than Vader.

 

Why didn't he just... step on the land and then continue fighting... he had to jump?

 

If you look at Anakin/Vader's fighting style, the jump fit in with his aggressive, risky nature. Even when he was a Jedi Anakin used such moves, and so I would blame it on him being, well, stupid.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Darth Malak was defeated by a redeemed Revan

 

Or Malak was defeated by a Darkside Revan.

 

Anakin (while no tturned) defeated Dooku.

 

The book hints that Anakin used the Darkside to defeat him.

 

Mace defeated Palpatine and then was betrayed.

 

We cannot know for sure that Palpatine was not faking his weakness for Anakin.

 

Nihilus, Sion, Kreia were defeated by the LS Exile

 

Or a Darkside Exile, and, as I have already pointed out, the only reason Lightside is cannon is due to the bias against the Darkside within LucasArts.

 

Darth Bandon got owned by Revan too.

 

Revan could have been light or dark.

 

Ajunta Pall goes back to the LS due to Revan.

 

Or you can do the Darkside option, both are valid.

 

Also:

 

Revan: Betrayed by Malak but comes back either as a Darkside or Lightside force user; although we do not find out what happened to him/her after he/she left to find the "True Sith."

 

Exile: Lightside or Darkside, undefeated at the end of Kotor II.

 

Aurra Sing: Still living

 

Darth Malak: Defeated by Darkside Revan or Lightside Revan.

 

Darth Bane: Seems to have either died of old age or have been overthrouwn by Zannah.

 

Zannah: Died of old age or overthrown by her apprentice.

 

Visas Marr: Traveled with the Exile, although there is a option to redeem her.

 

Darth Plagueis: Killed by Darth Sidious.

 

Darth Sidious: Killed by Darth Vader

 

Darth Vader: Killed by Darth Sidious.

 

The Dark Woman*: She turned into a force ghost and was respected by Qui-Gon.

 

Lumiya: Sacurfices herself to protect Darth Caedus' identity as Jason Solo.

 

*Or was it The Gray Woman...