Hail Lightside!

[Jediphile]

Dooku was thinking 'hah, last time I cut this young pup's hand off - I'll do worse to him this time...'. In short, he underestimated how Anakin had grown in the meantime making him old+overconfident, which usually adds up to disaster...

 

We cannot know for sure that Palpatine was not faking his weakness for Anakin.

 

Let's not begin that undead topic again... Lots of people argue there is no way Palpatine threw that fight, and it didn't look like that to me either. The only thing I think really speaks for it is the timing - if Anakin had arrived just a few instants earlier or later, either the duel would still have been evenly matched or Windu would have killed Palpatine. That always seemed too convenient to me.

 

Nihilus, Sion, Kreia were defeated by the LS Exile

 

Nihilus is a special case in that the exile was unique since Nihilus could not drain him and effectively brought about his own destruction by trying. Sion was not defeated but convinced to die, since his existence was to painful and pointless. And Kreia wanted to die at the exile's hand.

 

Darth Bandon got owned by Revan too.

 

Bandon was a pushover of an upstart punk. Even lowly Trask Ulgo could hold him off long enough for Revan and Carth to escape.

 

the only reason Lightside is cannon is due to the bias against the Darkside within LucasArts.

 

You got a pretty big problem there, though, since LA/Lucas decide the facts in Star Wars. If George says the Light Side is stronger, then that's it.

 

Darth Plagueis: Killed by Darth Sidious.

 

Darth Sidious: Killed by Darth Vader

 

Darth Vader: Killed by Darth Sidious.

 

I consider these significant, Plagueis because of how much power Sidious ascribes to him, while we know Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever (according to George), and because Sidious and Vader are the two most potent Sith ever (again according to George). This means the siths who were probably the greatest in history were not killed by LS jedi. Yoda couldn't destroy Sidious, and neither did Luke.

 

Indeed, I consider the dark side slightly more power for the same reason - the greatest threats the sith have ever presented seem to be destroyed by other sith. The dark side undermines itself, and since the light and dark seem evenly matched despite this, with LS having the advantage of trust among its followers, I'd say the DS would have to be slightly stronger. If it were not, then why is it the jedi cannot eradicate it and the sith despite their collaborative efforts? The sith don't have that trust - sith only cooperate when it is advantageous to all involved, and even then betrayal is planned before the point comes along where the mutual disadvantage ends.

 

Also add to the list:

 

Freedon Nadd's spirit was killed by Exar Kun.

 

Naga Sadow was killed/destroyed by Freedon Nadd.

 

Pre-KotOR1 Revan defeated/captured through Malak's treachery.

 

Ludo Kressh killed by Naga Sadow with both their fleets and followers killing each other. Yes, the republic was there, but they just watched them kill each other, then axed the wounded survivors.

[Albion72]

Darth Malak was defeated by a redeemed Revan

 

Or Malak was defeated by a Darkside Revan.

1. Regardless, Canon Revan is LS redeemed, which means the statement, "Most DS users have been defeated by LS users" true. Sure you can play DS Revan, but its a non-canon player friendly option.

 

Anakin (while no tturned) defeated Dooku.

 

The book hints that Anakin used the Darkside to defeat him.

2. I believe that Anakin used the Dark Side when he severed his head, not when he was fighting... A clear temptation of Palpatine. This is debatable at best though, I agree.

 

Mace defeated Palpatine and then was betrayed.

 

We cannot know for sure that Palpatine was not faking his weakness for Anakin.

 

3. Palpatine was putting up a good fight if you ask me and even slew the other three Jedi rather easily while in the fight. Personally I believe that he did nto want Windu to defeat him.

 

Nihilus, Sion, Kreia were defeated by the LS Exile

 

Or a Darkside Exile, and, as I have already pointed out, the only reason Lightside is cannon is due to the bias against the Darkside within LucasArts.

 

4. Still, canon is canon, read above.

 

Darth Bandon got owned by Revan too.

 

Revan could have been light or dark.

5. Read above.

 

Ajunta Pall goes back to the LS due to Revan.

Above lol.

Also:

 

Revan: Betrayed by Malak but comes back either as a Darkside or Lightside force user; although we do not find out what happened to him/her after he/she left to find the "True Sith."

 

Read above again.

Exile: Lightside or Darkside, undefeated at the end of Kotor II.

 

Aurra Sing: Still living

 

Darth Malak: Defeated by Darkside Revan or Lightside Revan.

 

Darth Bane: Seems to have either died of old age or have been overthrouwn by Zannah.

 

Zannah: Died of old age or overthrown by her apprentice.

 

Visas Marr: Traveled with the Exile, although there is a option to redeem her.

 

Darth Plagueis: Killed by Darth Sidious.

 

Darth Sidious: Killed by Darth Vader

 

Darth Vader: Killed by Darth Sidious.

 

The Dark Woman*: She turned into a force ghost and was respected by Qui-Gon.

 

Lumiya: Sacurfices herself to protect Darth Caedus' identity as Jason Solo.

 

*Or was it The Gray Woman...

 

Read above on the first one.

 

Zannah and Bane we do not know hwo they die, so we cannot say whether they were overthrown or not or died of old age. Its 70% of the possibility I'd say.

 

It can also be argued Darth Vader was LS when he killed Palpatine. (But cmon, it doesn't really matter. He didn't use the force he picked the guy up and threw him over a ledge, so it doesn't really matter).

[Mescalino]

Light and dark side is a matter of perspective.

 

Anakin/ Darth Vader wanted peace in the galaxy so his motives are good. However the means he used where 'debatable' to say the least. Does that make Darth Vader evil? I think not as at the end he turned to the light side by rescuing his son and killing Sidious. Unfortunatly by doing so i sacrificed himself. While i would consider Sidious to be Lawfull Evil i would say Vader would be more towards neutral then very evil. He is only a "bully' cause he fears sidous.

 

Luke wanted to kill Vader with great passion in the end battle doesn't that make him evil?

 

If the dark side is stronger why does light prevail?

Simple actually. The dark side is to arrogant because they are stronger. The light side "respects" the dark side and is aware of the power and how to "approach" it. This gives the light side an edge over the dark side. Sidous is an example of a sith that was very cunning but he to in the end underestimated the power of the Light side and thus turning vader against him.

 

This "arrogance" is often if not always characteristic of evil people. Hitler would also be a good example he was smart, no doubt about it, but his arrogance took great part in his defeat.

[Jediphile]

Light and dark side is a matter of perspective.

 

Whoa, hold on a second. Are we discussing the strengths and weaknesses of the dark side and light side by comparison, or are we talking about good vs. evil as represented by the light side and the dark side respectively in Star Wars. Because that is not the same discussion, and the latter one is an undead topic at that - philosophers have struggled with that one for centuries if not millennia, so I see that discussion as valid only if we're all able to accept up front that there won't be any conclusion.

 

Anakin/ Darth Vader wanted peace in the galaxy so his motives are good.

 

No. They're not, but let me get into that below. Suffice it to say that even if they were good to begin with, good intentions are what the road to Hell is paved with.

 

However the means he used where 'debatable' to say the least. Does that make Darth Vader evil? I think not as at the end he turned to the light side by rescuing his son and killing Sidious. Unfortunatly by doing so i sacrificed himself. While i would consider Sidious to be Lawfull Evil i would say Vader would be more towards neutral then very evil. He is only a "bully' cause he fears sidous.

 

No, Vader is evil because he does evil things. If you do evil then you are evil. You could argue that you might be forced to do a lesser evil for the greater good, but that still makes that action evil. That's what it means that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, because once you accept that "lesser evil for the greater good" then it becomes much easier to accept the next "lesser evil" when the time comes. And Anakin's reasons are not benevolent, no matter he says. Sure, he claims he wants to protect the republic when the jedi try to seize power, that he does it all out of love to save Padm

[Deadly_Nightshade]

...he was smart, no doubt about it...

 

That's debatable.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Sure you can play DS Revan, but its a non-canon player friendly option.

 

But, if you are claiming one side of the force is stronger than the other, you still have to admit that a Darkside user could defeat the same opponents.

[Mescalino]

Luke wanted to kill Vader with great passion in the end battle doesn't that make him evil?

 

No, because he stops himself. Nobody is above passion, especially not the jedi, and you neglect to point out that Vader goaded Luke on by suggesting that if he would not fall to the dark side, then they could have Leia do it instead, and Vader thereby threatens the one person that Luke loves the most at that point - how would any of us react if someone threatened your loved ones? Luke's reaction is understandable. He'd have to inhuman not to be affected by that. And yet he doesn't kill Vader. He is not evil precisely because he sees just what he will become if he does kill him.

 

 

As a jedi he should stand above that. I remember in part 3 anakin speaks to Yoda about his dreams where yoda says something in the line (i dont know the exact quotes) that he should pay to much attention to it as his fear for padme's death and his anger that he feels helpless are the path to the darkside.

 

I mean from a pure human perspective you are right. If someone treathens my brother (i dont have a sister) i would bust his ass. I think anyone would who loves his brother.

 

Obi-Wan loves Anakin like he is his brother yet he goes out to fight Anakin knowing how it would end. He didn't kill him, true but seeing how anakin was in terms of injuries he would have been better of. (one could argue that killing anakin would be the mercyfull thing to do).

 

But the strength of the darkside is emotions the bad ones like hate and anger. They are stronger then the Light side because they give in to these emotions while the lihgt side learns more to be like Vulkans from star trek. But strength doesn't lie pure in muscle or raw power. Power is more. Most if not all martial arts are not based on muscle but on cunning and being smart. The light side is more like like that martial artist while the dark sider is more of a bodybuilder. The martial artist will always win. Often evil persons are also smart but they all have to much self esteem then that's good for them.

 

That is why the light side always wins. They might be annoying as hell sometimes with a 'misterknowitall' attitude but they know not to underestamate their oponent while darksider do.

[Mescalino]

...he was smart, no doubt about it...

 

That's debatable.

 

Dont get me wrong he was wrong in every way! And the cruelty and horror he brought forth should never be forgotten.

But lets stay at Starwars as WW2 is a whole different subject i merely mentioned it as arrogance is a failure you see on all evil persons.

[Jediphile]

As a jedi he should stand above that. I remember in part 3 anakin speaks to Yoda about his dreams where yoda says something in the line (i dont know the exact quotes) that he should pay to much attention to it as his fear for padme's death and his anger that he feels helpless are the path to the darkside.

 

You're comparing two very different situations. Anakin is analyzing his situation and still cannot control his emotions, whereas Luke is in the spur of the moment both fighting for his life and confronting the threat of his worst nightmares come true. Not the same. Even Obi-Wan is emotional and angry upon watching Darth Maul kill Qui-Gon. Or will you claim he approached the subsequent fight with Maul with self-control and restraint? Didn't look so to me - I saw rage in Obi-Wan's eyes.

 

But the strength of the darkside is emotions the bad ones like hate and anger. They are stronger then the Light side because they give in to these emotions while the lihgt side learns more to be like Vulkans from star trek.

 

No, the jedi just try to focus on other emotions like compassion and even love (though they don't pursue it). The Vulcans bury any and all emotions under self-control, unlike the jedi and sith.

 

But strength doesn't lie pure in muscle or raw power. Power is more. Most if not all martial arts are not based on muscle but on cunning and being smart. The light side is more like like that martial artist while the dark sider is more of a bodybuilder. The martial artist will always win. Often evil persons are also smart but they all have to much self esteem then that's good for them.

 

That is why the light side always wins. They might be annoying as hell sometimes with a 'misterknowitall' attitude but they know not to underestamate their oponent while darksider do.

 

The sith do not have higher ideals to hold onto, only themselves. It gives them power, but also makes them overconfident. That's a big part of why they frequently fail against the jedi. The other is that they cannot cooperate or trust each other - every sith is ultimately alone, because other jedi try to kill them for being evil, while other sith try to kill them to take their place and power. Thus they know no trust. But the jedi do and can cooperate, which is another pretty big advantage for the jedi.

[Darth Clumber]

Why does it matter that LS users are generally the ones to kill DS users? It works the other way as well. Most Jedi are killed by Sith, and most Sith are killed by Jedi. It's just how it works and so you can't say that Sith Lords dying to Jedi makes the DS weaker.

[Mescalino]

As a jedi he should stand above that. I remember in part 3 anakin speaks to Yoda about his dreams where yoda says something in the line (i dont know the exact quotes) that he should pay to much attention to it as his fear for padme's death and his anger that he feels helpless are the path to the darkside.

 

You're comparing two very different situations. Anakin is analyzing his situation and still cannot control his emotions, whereas Luke is in the spur of the moment both fighting for his life and confronting the threat of his worst nightmares come true. Not the same. Even Obi-Wan is emotional and angry upon watching Darth Maul kill Qui-Gon. Or will you claim he approached the subsequent fight with Maul with self-control and restraint? Didn't look so to me - I saw rage in Obi-Wan's eyes.

 

You are right about that. There was defenatly anger in Ob's eyes when Dart Maul killed Qui-Gon. This is probably why he defeated Darth Maul.

 

But the strength of the darkside is emotions the bad ones like hate and anger. They are stronger then the Light side because they give in to these emotions while the lihgt side learns more to be like Vulkans from star trek.

 

No, the jedi just try to focus on other emotions like compassion and even love (though they don't pursue it). The Vulcans bury any and all emotions under self-control, unlike the jedi and sith.

 

Well i might have been a bit more clearer there i didn't mean they surpressed all emotions But they do bury most emotions deeply. Jedi tend to see/apprauch things more logically and rationally.

 

But strength doesn't lie pure in muscle or raw power. Power is more. Most if not all martial arts are not based on muscle but on cunning and being smart. The light side is more like like that martial artist while the dark sider is more of a bodybuilder. The martial artist will always win. Often evil persons are also smart but they all have to much self esteem then that's good for them.

 

That is why the light side always wins. They might be annoying as hell sometimes with a 'misterknowitall' attitude but they know not to underestamate their oponent while darksider do.

 

The sith do not have higher ideals to hold onto, only themselves. It gives them power, but also makes them overconfident. That's a big part of why they frequently fail against the jedi. The other is that they cannot cooperate or trust each other - every sith is ultimately alone, because other jedi try to kill them for being evil, while other sith try to kill them to take their place and power. Thus they know no trust. But the jedi do and can cooperate, which is another pretty big advantage for the jedi.

 

They do have "higher Ideals" they just are opposite of the LS. They want to become the strongest and most powerful sith in the galaxy. Thats why the apprentice kills its master, to show he is more powerful or eliminate a more powerful sith and thus gain gaining places on the "power ladder".

[Jediphile]

They do have "higher Ideals" they just are opposite of the LS. They want to become the strongest and most powerful sith in the galaxy. Thats why the apprentice kills its master, to show he is more powerful or eliminate a more powerful sith and thus gain gaining places on the "power ladder".

 

Well, I fail to see the difference between that and personal ambition. The Sith may preach that as their higher goal, but to me it just sounds like an excuse for doing what they selfishly want to do.

[Albion72]

Sure you can play DS Revan, but its a non-canon player friendly option.

 

But, if you are claiming one side of the force is stronger than the other, you still have to admit that a Darkside user could defeat the same opponents.

 

.... because they don't want anyone to be upset.

 

It would really make people angry, (even me) if they said that since canon Revan is LS then I can't play a different way sometime and go DS and win.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

...I can't play a different way sometime and go DS and win.

 

They could have easily changed it to make a Darkside character defeat his, or her, opponents in a different manner - role playing games do that all the time.

[Darth Clumber]

Sure you can play DS Revan, but its a non-canon player friendly option.

 

But, if you are claiming one side of the force is stronger than the other, you still have to admit that a Darkside user could defeat the same opponents.

 

.... because they don't want anyone to be upset.

 

It would really make people angry, (even me) if they said that since canon Revan is LS then I can't play a different way sometime and go DS and win.

 

 

Then why is it that its so much easier to kill all those foes as DS? Easier than it is as LS, and u cant say thats because they didnt want to make people angry, its just because DS is better

[Bass-GameMaster]

They do have "higher Ideals" they just are opposite of the LS. They want to become the strongest and most powerful sith in the galaxy. Thats why the apprentice kills its master, to show he is more powerful or eliminate a more powerful sith and thus gain gaining places on the "power ladder".

 

Well, I fail to see the difference between that and personal ambition. The Sith may preach that as their higher goal, but to me it just sounds like an excuse for doing what they selfishly want to do.

 

Exactly.

[Albion72]

Sure you can play DS Revan, but its a non-canon player friendly option.

 

But, if you are claiming one side of the force is stronger than the other, you still have to admit that a Darkside user could defeat the same opponents.

 

.... because they don't want anyone to be upset.

 

It would really make people angry, (even me) if they said that since canon Revan is LS then I can't play a different way sometime and go DS and win.

 

 

Then why is it that its so much easier to kill all those foes as DS? Easier than it is as LS, and u cant say thats because they didnt want to make people angry, its just because DS is better

 

You think its easier to kill them as DS? This whole time I've not been on the forums is because KOTOR II came in the mail and I've been playing it... Knight Speed, Force Valor, Force Armor, + other buffs is really easy. Force Enlightenment also makes it quick. I find playing DS is boring and slower. Instead of cutting down all my enemies I have to force shock them 8 times.

 

The DS is not "better", Of coures it is better as far as offensive spells go because thats te nature of the DS, to be offensive.

[DSLuke]

What Force Shock, you simply use Force Ligtning and you cut your enemies down like butter, especially if you are a Sith Lord

[Rosbjerg]

Dark side is easier combat wise imo, also because you get so much more money that way, you can buy good equipment early on.

 

Plus almost all your powers deal alot damage.

 

Not that going lightside is hard though. With Stasis and all the buffs you are pretty nasty with your lightsaber.

[Jediphile]

What Force Shock, you simply use Force Ligtning and you cut your enemies down like butter, especially if you are a Sith Lord

 

No need to be a sith lord for that

[Darth Clumber]

LS takes longer 4 me cuz it seems more defensive...and i get annoyed having to keep reaplying all the buffs and whatnot, its so much easier just to spam awesome DS powers

[I want teh kotor 3]

If the Dark Side is stronger, why is it that the Light has always prevailed?

'Cause they have an army. Look what happened when the Sith had a bigger one. Sidious took over the galaxy. Revan would have if Malak wasn't a complete and total idiot.

 

If the Dark Side is stronger, why is it that the Sith (aside from Sidious) have never brought the Republic to its knees?

See above.

 

If the Dark Side is stronger, why is it that your so called "Better Code than the Jedi's" only leads your order to destruction.

The nature of the dark side is destruction. The strong survive (Revan, Bane), the weak die (Malak, Retard).

 

If the Dark Side is stronger, why is it that you must lure Jedi into believing it is in order to convince them to turn from the Light? If it was stronger, then everyone would know it.

The Jedi are stubborn stuck-ups that inherently believe they're stronger than everyone else.

 

If the Jedi were evil as you always made them out to be to your victims, why is it that not once did the Jedi every overthrow a government and assume control. Why have the Jedi never dominated any territory aside from their Temple.

The Republic is perfectly happy to have them pull the strings in the background.

 

Why have the Jedi never governed someone else outside their order. Give me one instance of a Jedi (not fallen) that has started a galactic-wide war.

"...Valorum [was] appointed the first non-Jedi Chanellor in over four centuries." (Bane: RoT (95)) Jedi ruled the Senate for 400 years.

 

Give me one example of a Jedi Council that has ordered Genocide numbering in the billions.

They didn't allow the Rakata to leave Lehon, thus aecuring the species' extention.

[Bass-GameMaster]

What Force Shock, you simply use Force Ligtning and you cut your enemies down like butter, especially if you are a Sith Lord

 

No need to be a sith lord for that

 

Dont remind me I hate hearing lightside characters with force lightning.

 

Being lightside is more fun in terms of saber combat, I buff up about 14 buffs before a fight use my jedi-weapon master set, critical hit half characters health... Hear how darkside is somehow better?

[Jediphile]

If the Dark Side is stronger, why is it that the Light has always prevailed?

'Cause they have an army. Look what happened when the Sith had a bigger one. Sidious took over the galaxy. Revan would have if Malak wasn't a complete and total idiot.

 

The Sith did not have an army when Sidious took over - he simply swindled the Republic's army, which included jedi, to turn against them. As for Revan, that's like saying the Sith would be stronger if they didn't do, well, Sithy things. Of course Malak betrayed Revan - he was supposed to as his apprentice. It's not like that's the first time it happened, or even the last. Evil always turns on itself. But I'd agree if you argued that's why the dark side will always lose.

 

If the Dark Side is stronger, why is it that your so called "Better Code than the Jedi's" only leads your order to destruction.

The nature of the dark side is destruction. The strong survive (Revan, Bane), the weak die (Malak, Retard).

 

And Revan (captured and reprogrammed by the jedi), Palpatine (killed by his apprentice), Plagueis (ditto), Naga Sadow (again, ditto). The list goes on and on. We don't know about Bane only because his story isn't finished yet. But no, the strong don't survive among the Sith - they are killed by the jedi or betrayed by their own who want their power or both.

 

The Jedi are stubborn stuck-ups that inherently believe they're stronger than everyone else.

 

Based on what? The sith seem to be the one thing they are highly wary of and never underestimate.

 

The Republic is perfectly happy to have them pull the strings in the background.

 

Tell that to Palpatine or Borsk Fey'lya.

 

They didn't allow the Rakata to leave Lehon, thus aecuring the species' extention.

 

Wookieepedia tells a very different story with reference to Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rakata#Post-Civil_War

[I want teh kotor 3]

The Sith did not have an army when Sidious took over - he simply swindled the Republic's army, which included jedi, to turn against them. As for Revan, that's like saying the Sith would be stronger if they didn't do, well, Sithy things. Of course Malak betrayed Revan - he was supposed to as his apprentice. It's not like that's the first time it happened, or even the last. Evil always turns on itself. But I'd agree if you argued that's why the dark side will always lose.

 

He started killing off the Jedi after he took over the Republic, thus gaining an army. AS for Revan, I meant if Malak hadn't attacked him like a ***** with his ship, but had fought him 1 on 1.

 

And Revan (captured and reprogrammed by the jedi), Palpatine (killed by his apprentice), Plagueis (ditto), Naga Sadow (again, ditto). The list goes on and on. We don't know about Bane only because his story isn't finished yet. But no, the strong don't survive among the Sith - they are killed by the jedi or betrayed by their own who want their power or both.

Only (with the exception of Plagueis) once their apprentices were stronger. Plagueis died because his apprentice (whose name I shall not mention so as to not draw the fanboys' ire ) was also a *****.

 

Based on what? The sith seem to be the one thing they are highly wary of and never underestimate.

 

Exactly my point- they only care about the Sith because the Sith are stronger.

 

 

Tell that to Palpatine or Borsk Fey'lya.

 

Neither of whom (especially Palpatine) were typical figures in the Republic government.

 

 

Wookieepedia tells a very different story with reference to Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rakata#Post-Civil_War

 

This one I might have misinterpreted, but, in the book, it seemed to me like the Jedi didn't want the Rakata off their planet because they were DS users.