So... yeah... I joined the navy.

[Walsingham]

Well, there are new smart missiles being developed in which they are under the remote controle of a person.

 

That would be appallingly not sensible. Missile control speeds, and counter-measure control speeds are far too fast to allow for humans to control them via datalinks.

 

As for the other objections, I'm not having a go at anyone. The accepted wisdom is that missiles and torpedoes rule. However, I am arguing that this supremacy is dependent on an era when anti-air, anti-missile, and anti-torpedo weapons were poor to non-existent. The most cursory look at sites like globalsecurity.org will show you that is no-longer the case. If you run with my notion, and accept that missiles can be shot down or confused, then battle becomes fruitless. At which point having something which chucks salvoes of dumb but very tough things around could come in handy.

[Gromnir]

"If you run with my notion..."

 

did that. the problem is that even so you still not have a need/use for battle wagons no more. what is their purpose?

 

shore bombardment? nope.

 

ship to ship? eh? why? battleships is useful in destroying other capital ships... other battleships and aircraft carriers. air craft carriers fight battles further away than any gun could hope to hit (the iowa can shoot over the horizon and that still ain't near far enough to match range of planes or missiles) and if nobody else has battleships neither, then what is the point? is simply far too big and expensive... and as were seen in wwii, there ain't no armour that is thick enough or high enough in quality to makes functionally impervious.

 

you gotta get close (relative real close) with your battleship to be useful, and by the time you get close enough to use guns, you is gonna have to fight your way through all those so-called dumb missiles, and not-so-dumb enemies aircraft. even dumb missiles is gonna hit if you fire enough. radar were relative new in wwii, but now we gots all kinds o' satellites in space and sosus/phase ii, so it is unlikely that any kinda surface fleet can move in the Atlantic or pacific w/o US knowledge far ahead o' time. so, until they comes up with a stealth battleship that can get in close enough to make use of guns, there simply ain't no point at the moment to have such a class o' ship.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 30, 2008 by Gromnir

[Monte Carlo]

"After sixteen years in the army, he was catapulted to the rank of corporal"

 

(Woody Allen - Take the Money and Run)

 

My recent family's military history started out reasonably well -

 

My Grandfather was an army dispatch rider in WW2, won a medal for driving through a minefield in N. Africa (why didn't he just drive around it?). Then he fought in Italy, got home in 1946 after five years without coming home.

 

Then it went downhill with my father -

 

He was a National Serviceman in the 1950's. In the UK, National Service was conscription, which lasted until 1962 or 1963 IIRC. My father was an army truck driver, but he deserted. The military cops couldn't be bothered to come for him, presumably having done a quick piece of analysis around his net contribution to the British army. In the end he ended up handing himself in at a police station and was put in charge of an ageing army fire engine.

 

My contribution was little better -

 

I went to the recruitment office. My test scores were so low that when I asked if I could fly helicopters they replied that they wouldn't trust me to fuel one, let alone fly one. Eventually I ended up as a bayonet technician (infantry) in the reserves for five years. We would go to Germany every autumn, dig trenches and wait for the Russians. Or make rude signs at the East German border guards. Or shout very loudly into the little telephones they have at the back of tanks at 0200 to p*ss the crews off. During the first Gulf War we weren't mobilized, which we were all very annoyed about because we were in our early twenties and knew no better.

 

I ended up doing something entirely different but enjoyed every moment of my contact with the military.

 

So enjoy the Navy, and Godspeed Calax. I'm sure you will.

 

Cheers

MC

[Nick_i_am]

My test scores were so low that when I asked if I could fly helicopters they replied that they wouldn't trust me to fuel one, let alone fly one.

 

haha, burn.

[Gromnir]

btw, the USN recently launched a new warship.

 

link

 

is small, fast, stealthy and modular/multi-purpose. is part of the new green-water fleet notion, as 'posed to traditional blue and brown water fleets... and is pretty much opposite o' everything that a battleship provides.

 

but again, the US has a real problem with building cost effective warships. dozens o' littoral warships is envisioned and planned for, but up until a few weeks ago the USN had halted production on the lockheed and general dynamics designs 'cause cost reality weren't anywhere near cost projections. small, fast, stealthy, modular/multi-purpose AND cheap were goal.

 

USN pretty much owns blue waters outright, but the closer they get to shore...

 

HA! Good Fun!

[taks]

Well, there are new smart missiles being developed in which they are under the remote controle of a person.

hehe, if it is a "smart" missile, it is not under the control of a human operator.

 

self-guiding missiles have been around for a loooooong time. they're just a lot "smarter" now than they used to be. of course, there are also much better technologies out there for detecting/tracking/de-commissioning such things, too.

 

the new wave of technology, btw, is the development of ever smaller, and more complex, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). these little buggers make detection difficult for a variety of reasons. in particular, smaller size reduces radar cross section (RCS), but also allows the use of light-weight, non-metallic, components, which further reduces RCS. smaller RCS means harder to detect with conventional radar. of course, UAVs aren't carrying MOABs or anything, but they can be quite useful in other areas and carry some small arms for tactical deployment.

 

taks

[Monte Carlo]

Why are they spending billions on high-tech warships when the primary threat appears to be Iranian speedboats with forward mounted machineguns?

[taks]

Why are they spending billions on high-tech warships when the primary threat appears to be Iranian speedboats with forward mounted machineguns?

they're spending plenty on that, too. trust me. unfortunately, the kind of technology that would be useful (at least as useful as typical radar systems) against such threats is an unbelievable leap forward in what is currently within our capabilities. lots of research going into this. lots of ideas. not much progress that i've seen.

 

taks

Edited April 30, 2008 by taks

[Gromnir]

Why are they spending billions on high-tech warships when the primary threat appears to be Iranian speedboats with forward mounted machineguns?

 

is not so much the machine gun that has the USN worried, but there are numerous weapons that a small speedboat can carry that does pose a threat.... and the big nightmare involves a small swarm o' such speedboats getting in amongst a carrier group. lessons learned from the Cole incident is what inspired the lcs projects.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

ps

 

linky

 

recent article in the nyt describing some o' the backwards arsed thinking that occurs when the pentagon attempts to save money with clever tricks. am all in favor o' saving some dollars, but it always astounds us just how incompetent the US military is at keeping costs down on large contracts. some bloat is expected, but it seems like gimmicks meant to make cheaper always has a tendency to have opposite effect than intended.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Walsingham]

I accept that lofting enough missiles in the air would mean some get through, but well, how many missiles do you think are actually carried in an engagement? There are only so many tubes on a boat that can stay loaded up during fighting I'd imagine. Bearing in mind we're only about ten years away from useful beam weapons for countering incoming missiles and what do you have? I believe we are looking at engagements fought at much closer ranges using either hypersonic missiles and or heavy guns. And of those two hypersonic missiles just need something solid put in their path since their own velocity adds violence to an impact.

 

So yes, I'm saying ship to ship. A close in brawler that is certainly a specialist, but once within range can systematically mince anything in range.

[Laozi]

Has no one sang Calax that ancient chantey sung to those on their maiden voyage?

[Walsingham]

I think I started arguing for the sake of it there. It's still interesting though.

[Calax]

two things.

 

One, I hope I don't get attached to a carrier.

Two, getting in shape is a bugger all.

[Sand]

two things.

 

One, I hope I don't get attached to a carrier.

Two, getting in shape is a bugger all.

 

I think a submarine is more worrisome. Never go on a boat that sinks on purpose.

[Guard Dog]

I don't know about that Calax, a carrier is practically a floating city. As a fire control tech I think a cruiser or destroyer is most likely. Like Sand said, sub duty would be the worst, especially is you are even a little claustrophobic. I made three floats on LPDs (in the USMC a ship deployment is called a "float"). LPDs are amphibious assault ships. The Navy calls them "Gator Freighters". That isn't much fun either, the ships are small and VERY crowded. And they are flat bottomed, I did not know why that was a big deal until we got into some foul weather.

 

I don't know if they still do this but I remember it was something of a tradition in the Navy for the top graduate of every C school class to have their pick of available orders. So if you do well in school you get to pick your ship or duty station from what's available.

 

BTW...When do you ship out?

Edited May 6, 2008 by Guard Dog

[Gfted1]

I wouldnt have wanted to be on any other kind of vessel but a carrier. Even in the worst weather we only got a slight rocking. I remember watching out the hangar bay doors for UNREP (Underway Replenishment) and those poor bastards would be pitching and rocking like crazy while we barely moved.

 

The down side is you do have longer lines for stuff like chow, medical, haircut, ship store, etc...

[Walsingham]

Just a word on op sec: don't tell us where you DO get posted and when you sail etc. I know I sound like a throwback, but you really can endanger yourself and endanger all your mates.

[Gfted1]

Loose lips sink ships.

[Sand]

Just a word on op sec: don't tell us where you DO get posted and when you sail etc. I know I sound like a throwback, but you really can endanger yourself and endanger all your mates.

 

Good point there, Walsh, and something I wholeheartedly agree with.

 

As for choosing orders I had the choice of being stationed at Pearl Harbor or stationed at Boston. Being part of the Pacific Fleet or a tour guide.

[Gromnir]

two things.

 

One, I hope I don't get attached to a carrier.

Two, getting in shape is a bugger all.

 

I think a submarine is more worrisome. Never go on a boat that sinks on purpose.

 

an acquaintance o' ours, an ex-navy guy, brings his wife over to Gromnir's house for a barbecue. he spent some number o' years on boomers but we ain't talking 'bout navy stuff at all. instead we talks 'bout one of Gromnir's favorite subjects: food. so we is talking 'bout diverse stuff like which cuts o' meat benefit most from braising and what is best brine technique for chicken, when all o' a sudden this guy gets kinda quiet and reflective. blurts out that he never ate any better than when he were at sea.

 

sadly, his wife were in ear shot...

 

is our understanding that the USN takes pretty good care of the silent service guys.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Walsingham]

two things.

 

One, I hope I don't get attached to a carrier.

Two, getting in shape is a bugger all.

 

I think a submarine is more worrisome. Never go on a boat that sinks on purpose.

 

an acquaintance o' ours, an ex-navy guy, brings his wife over to Gromnir's house for a barbecue. he spent some number o' years on boomers but we ain't talking 'bout navy stuff at all. instead we talks 'bout one of Gromnir's favorite subjects: food. so we is talking 'bout diverse stuff like which cuts o' meat benefit most from braising and what is best brine technique for chicken, when all o' a sudden this guy gets kinda quiet and reflective. blurts out that he never ate any better than when he were at sea.

 

sadly, his wife were in ear shot...

 

is our understanding that the USN takes pretty good care of the silent service guys.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

They really do try to give them a good tour. But ultimately there's no substitute for fresh air and sunshine. I just spent the day in teh garden working and I wouldn't trade that for a steak.

[Calax]

I ship out july 24.

 

from what recruiters tell me subs are now volunteer only so NO chance of me going on one of those little sinkers.

[Walsingham]

I ship out july 24.

 

from what recruiters tell me subs are now volunteer only so NO chance of me going on one of those little sinkers.

 

I don't know what the phys is like for the USN, but make sure you do a little every day. Don't go nuts, just get your body used to it. And two more things:

 

1. Good luck

2. Well done for volunteering. As our training sergeant says, it's half the job and half the respect*.

 

 

* I considered asking if I could quit while I was ahead, but thought better of it.

[Guard Dog]

Calax you have my respect and my thanks, for what thats worth. Whatever your motivations are you are a good man and doing more for your country than most people ever will.