North Illinois University Shooting

[Tigranes]

I understand that Mesh, but what is "killing without reason"? There is nearly always a reason. We don't walk around with guns and just shoot people. Most human killings DO have a reason. What you are really saying is, "without a 'good' reason".

 

What is a 'good' reason for killing?

 

Is killing for territory or killing with greed any 'better' a reason than killing someone you hate and despise, or killing for a political reason, or killing someone of a different religion or ethnicity?

 

You might say killing for territory means you are killing because you are threatened, and you have something to gain from it. Well, that would be the same with genocide against ethnicities or religions - they are killing because they feel or believe themselves threatened in terms not of material loss but of ideological ones. And that is just as 'valid'.

 

I do not understand why the animal reasons for killing are any more 'natural' or 'better' or more understandable/acceptable than human reasons for killing. Because of the way we have loaded the term 'natural' and 'artificial' with connotations, it is sometimes 'instinctive' to feel that what is natural is more acceptable, and these newfangled, 'invented' human reasons, for the simple flaw of being 'artificial', are more insidious or less acceptable. But that most certainly is not true. What makes a good reason for killing, Mesh? Or if you would go back and argue we truly kill very often without ANY reason (whether you see it as valid or not)... well, I can't imagine how that is, so you will have to explain it to me.

[Sand]

I think one good reason to kill another human being is in the defense of one's self, one's home, and one's family.

[Tale]

Absolutely not ludicrous. It is a goal tried several times before, and will be in the future. Remember what i said earlier about those people who tried to praise such things? But of of course, they got killed by us, humans.

 

Just because one man can set his sights on conquering the world does not mean conquering all of Europe is to be scoffed at.

 

It is ludicrous. Not ludicrous to aspire to such a thing. Ludicrous to count a grandiose aspiration as the only thing that is significant. Lacking perfection is not the same as achieving nothing.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Tale

[Nick_i_am]

You didn't read my post properly.

 

No, I understood perfectly and while on one level you're right, on another, you're talking crap as per my examples, and that's even ignoring the fact that it's impossible to test how animals would react when placed under modern social pressures.

 

Dolphin and Duck males will both form into rape gangs and hunt down any nearby females while a Gorrilla that has just become head of his set will actively murder the offspring of the previous leader. There are very few examples of humans doing naughty things that arn't mirrored somewhere in the animal kingdom, it's just that we do all of them, which accounts for much of our success as a species.

[Meshugger]

I understand that Mesh, but what is "killing without reason"? There is nearly always a reason. We don't walk around with guns and just shoot people. Most human killings DO have a reason. What you are really saying is, "without a 'good' reason".

 

What is a 'good' reason for killing?

 

Is killing for territory or killing with greed any 'better' a reason than killing someone you hate and despise, or killing for a political reason, or killing someone of a different religion or ethnicity?

 

You might say killing for territory means you are killing because you are threatened, and you have something to gain from it. Well, that would be the same with genocide against ethnicities or religions - they are killing because they feel or believe themselves threatened in terms not of material loss but of ideological ones. And that is just as 'valid'.

 

I do not understand why the animal reasons for killing are any more 'natural' or 'better' or more understandable/acceptable than human reasons for killing. Because of the way we have loaded the term 'natural' and 'artificial' with connotations, it is sometimes 'instinctive' to feel that what is natural is more acceptable, and these newfangled, 'invented' human reasons, for the simple flaw of being 'artificial', are more insidious or less acceptable. But that most certainly is not true. What makes a good reason for killing, Mesh? Or if you would go back and argue we truly kill very often without ANY reason (whether you see it as valid or not)... well, I can't imagine how that is, so you will have to explain it to me.

 

Animals kill because of the reasons you stated and is expected, since they are less evolved than humans. Good reason to kill? I see no good reasons to kill anyone myself. But countless of times killers (proved to be in mentally good health) killed because of curiosity, boredom or even pure laziness. Again this is not exactly what one would expect from a species that claimes itself evolved.

[Meshugger]

Absolutely not ludicrous. It is a goal tried several times before, and will be in the future. Remember what i said earlier about those people who tried to praise such things? But of of course, they got killed by us, humans.

 

Just because one man can set his sights on conquering the world does not mean conquering all of Europe is to be scoffed at.

 

It is ludicrous. Not ludicrous to aspire to such a thing. Ludicrous to count a grandiose aspiration as the only thing that is significant. Lacking perfection is not the same as achieving nothing.

 

Just a small step forward is still a small step. We haven't evolved much from the jungle until we're gotten several steps further.

[Nick_i_am]

Again this is not exactly what one would expect from a species that claimes itself evolved.

 

haha, nobody is going to argue that.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Nick_i_am

[Meshugger]

You didn't read my post properly.

 

No, I understood perfectly and while on one level you're right, on another, you're talking crap as per my examples, and that's even ignoring the fact that it's impossible to test how animals would react when placed under modern social pressures.

 

Dolphin and Duck males will both form into rape gangs and hunt down any nearby females while a Gorrilla that has just become head of his set will actively murder the offspring of the previous leader. There are very few examples of humans doing naughty things that arn't mirrored somewhere in the animal kingdom, it's just that we do all of them, which accounts for much of our success as a species.

 

I can agree that we can't truly measure animal pressure under modern social situations. But...

 

- Berlin 1945, mass rape of the women in Berlin. As much as 100 000 cases of rape was done by the Red Army *jungle drums are booming*

- The second example...you get my drift.

 

What is it with you people and your active replying?

 

And what is this collective replying of *HURR! Wrong!* at this thread? you make it sound like i've "done a Sand" or something...

[Sand]

Well, didn't you?

[Tale]

Absolutely not ludicrous. It is a goal tried several times before, and will be in the future. Remember what i said earlier about those people who tried to praise such things? But of of course, they got killed by us, humans.

 

Just because one man can set his sights on conquering the world does not mean conquering all of Europe is to be scoffed at.

 

It is ludicrous. Not ludicrous to aspire to such a thing. Ludicrous to count a grandiose aspiration as the only thing that is significant. Lacking perfection is not the same as achieving nothing.

 

Just a small step forward is still a small step. We haven't evolved much from the jungle until we're gotten several steps further.

And I've already pointed out many steps. That you completely ignore. Heck, what you're saying here isn't even addressing the point I just made. Does using the words "small steps" somehow justify ignorance of anything but the grandiose? Or does it only demonstrate it?

Edited February 20, 2008 by Tale

[Meshugger]

Absolutely not ludicrous. It is a goal tried several times before, and will be in the future. Remember what i said earlier about those people who tried to praise such things? But of of course, they got killed by us, humans.

 

Just because one man can set his sights on conquering the world does not mean conquering all of Europe is to be scoffed at.

 

It is ludicrous. Not ludicrous to aspire to such a thing. Ludicrous to count a grandiose aspiration as the only thing that is significant. Lacking perfection is not the same as achieving nothing.

 

Just a small step forward is still a small step. We haven't evolved much from the jungle until we're gotten several steps further.

And I've already pointed out many steps. That you completely ignore. Heck, what you're saying here isn't even addressing the point I just made. Does somehow using the words "small steps" justify ignorance of anything but the grandiose? Or does it only demonstrate it?

 

No, didn't ignore them. They're just too small for my grand scale human evolvement.

 

Thank you and good night. Remember not to steal, cheat, lie, rape or murder and we've taken another small step tonight

[Tale]

Remember not to steal, cheat, lie, rape or murder and we've taken another small step tonight

I've done that 8900 times. Can we qualify for over a mile now?

[Sand]

Only if it is green, Tale.

[Nick_i_am]

- Berlin 1945, mass rape of the women in Berlin. As much as 100 000 cases of rape was done by the Red Army *jungle drums are booming*

- The second example...you get my drift.

 

Oh yeah, totally, the problem is that on one hand you're saying that humans are still, essentally, pray to their base insticts, which I agree with. But on the other you're saying that those base instincts are worse than those of other creatures, which is somthing I don't agree with. We're cursed with a degree of intelligence which gives us more insight into how to enact those instincts, but the basic survival mechanisms are essentally the same. Killing for a trivial reason is still killing for a reason and can still be traced back to those same mechanisms in the same way that great apes have been recorded developing cronic anti-social behavior disorders.

 

Going back to the chimps, a group of them murdered this 'socal outcast' then proceded to beat his body and hang him from a tree. Sure, they're our closest relatives, but people underestimate just how close that is.

[walkerguy]

Thats pretty sick. What was that the Red's idea of a Fun Fest?

[Nick_i_am]

They've learned to use computers too.

[Hell Kitty]

Not true at all.

 

Exactly what about what I posted is not true at all? We aren't driven by our need for food and shelter and sex? We don't compete for these things differently now than we have in the past? The laws and punishments of society don't have any influence on how we act? You can't ignore reality just because it doesn't fit into your pessimistic world view.

 

We are not god's little angles, far from it.

 

I never said we were angels. This seems to be your entire problem, the apparent belief that civilization and evolution means some form of perfection. Civilization doesn't mean we don't sometimes act uncivilized.

 

Also, it isn't true that human kill for no reason. There is always a reason. That reason might not be obvious, it might seem stupid, you might not be able to understand it, but there's always a reason.

[Walsingham]

Sorry, chaps, I'm confused. What is the Red Army to do with gun control, and school shootings?

[Gorth]

Thread trimmed a bit. I wonder if it has outlived it's usefulness?

[walkerguy]

I don't know. Someone said something about Berlin rapists?? This thread probably is finished. I can't even tell what the topic is without looking above at the title.

[Meshugger]

Not true at all.

 

Exactly what about what I posted is not true at all? We aren't driven by our need for food and shelter and sex? We don't compete for these things differently now than we have in the past? The laws and punishments of society don't have any influence on how we act? You can't ignore reality just because it doesn't fit into your pessimistic world view.

 

We are not god's little angles, far from it.

 

I never said we were angels. This seems to be your entire problem, the apparent belief that civilization and evolution means some form of perfection. Civilization doesn't mean we don't sometimes act uncivilized.

 

Also, it isn't true that human kill for no reason. There is always a reason. That reason might not be obvious, it might seem stupid, you might not be able to understand it, but there's always a reason.

 

I misunderstood you. By meaning are i thought that you meant that as in as is without a basic drive to it. My bad.

 

And not killing and raping each other is not perfection. It is the very requirement to set us on a higher level, philosophically speaking and biologically speaking. Perfection is that man would be infallible, meaning that capable of doing nothing wrong at all, which i see as a goal rather than a viable setting for humanity.

 

Also, it depends on what you see as a reason. Is boredom and curiosity a reason for murder? I think not, but it still happens. However, we're entering an area on universally define reason, so we have to agree to disagree there.

[Meshugger]

- Berlin 1945, mass rape of the women in Berlin. As much as 100 000 cases of rape was done by the Red Army *jungle drums are booming*

- The second example...you get my drift.

 

Oh yeah, totally, the problem is that on one hand you're saying that humans are still, essentally, pray to their base insticts, which I agree with. But on the other you're saying that those base instincts are worse than those of other creatures, which is somthing I don't agree with. We're cursed with a degree of intelligence which gives us more insight into how to enact those instincts, but the basic survival mechanisms are essentally the same. Killing for a trivial reason is still killing for a reason and can still be traced back to those same mechanisms in the same way that great apes have been recorded developing cronic anti-social behavior disorders.

 

Going back to the chimps, a group of them murdered this 'socal outcast' then proceded to beat his body and hang him from a tree. Sure, they're our closest relatives, but people underestimate just how close that is.

 

I somewhat agree with you there. I find it more sickening when humans, who should have to capability to understand that murder is wrong, but we still do. From there we disagree, you see it as another kill and still as bad as any other. I find it very perverse that we as humans still do that, and therefore more sickening than animals doing it.

 

Btw, i like horror-movies, Ninja Gaiden and 80's action. I am even less evolved than some of you