Since melee is being discussed - I think that the best implementation of 3rd person melee is Mount & Blade, though I'm also willing to bet that the game does cheat and it is freaking hard (or perhaps I just suck). M&B melee is what melee should have been in oblivion, or at least it's closer.

 

agree, that game has awsome melee.

3rd person melee isn't too much better. I suspect many people who played Metal Gear Solid 3 or Metal Gear Solid Portable Ops encountered quite a few accidental alerts because they ran into someone while trying to get close enough for a grab from behind.

Prior to Subsistence, MGS3 had a camera that was less than great. But even ignoring camera issues, I think comparing the controls in the Splinter Cell series to controls in MGS finds the former coming out ahead. By a lot.

Huh, what about all the legendary 3rd person martial arts games.

And Mount&Blade! And Mount&Blade! And Mount&Blade! And Mount&Blade!

 

Oh, right.

Hmm.. I admit that depth perception isn't the greatest asset you have when trying to do melee combat in first person view. But does it really matter if the game cheats or not? In a real melee situation, if someone is too far away you just miss. Same as in the game. If they're too close you lose power and accuracy but you still hit. Just like in the game. Get it right and you knock your opponent out. Almost. I understand that enemies can't be as aggressive outside your line of view but to call that cheating? A necessity that could be explained with moral codes if so inclined.

 

Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay had excellent first person melee combat. Visceral, brutal and it definitely felt "right". Mayhaps they were also cheating, but does anyone truly care when it works as well as it did?

I'd rather see having no melee combat against Aliens at all. If they get too close, you're screwed. This could make fun with a well designed Map (remember the 30min Starcraft Zerg invasion?). Unless there's a special class with special suits to deal with the acid.

I agree that 3rd Person melee combat often feels clunky and unsatisfying. People say the Witcher has improved in that regard, however. Stealth mission (slipping through a base, avoiding spotlights and marines) would make more fun in First person I think.

Melee combat can feel bad in any perspective if it isn't executed properly. I don't think that the best 1st person melee games (DMoMM, Riddick, Oblivion) hold up against the best 3rd person melee games (DMC3, Ninja Gaiden, God of War) in terms of that gameplay.

 

I enjoyed the stealth in Splinter Cell even more than the stealth in Thief. Not because the stealth mechanics were necessarily better, but because Sam has a lot of opportunities to interact with the environment and characters in a way that's very satisfying to see in third person.

 

Now that I think about it I don

I enjoyed the stealth in Splinter Cell even more than the stealth in Thief. Not because the stealth mechanics were necessarily better, but because Sam has a lot of opportunities to interact with the environment and characters in a way that's very satisfying to see in third person.

But the perception in Splinter Cell was entirely different, not to mention that you could see enemies around the corner earlier thanks to the distant camera. But then again, maybe it was never the intention of Ubisoft to let the player feel vulnerable and alerted (a'la Thief), but just messing around with the enemies in a not-so-direct-manner. The worst thing about many Ubisoft games however is the low-level player input. Fighting off a horde of enemies with just the left/right mouse button gets dull quickly, even though it looks very well choreographed. I'm thinking of Prince of Persia, which was supposed to be a combat game.

I don't know about Aliens. There surely will be fightings against humans I presume, but I still don't see why melee combat should be given as much importance as let's say Ninja Gaiden. Engaging Aliens in melee like Jacky Chan does with the bad guys would be just as dull as Kotor. I wouldn't even make them the standard enemy in the first place.

I've only been addressing melee combat in the context of RPGs that have handled it in various ways in the past. You can make ranged combat just as uninvolved and remote feeling. Even using enormous Wanzers in Front Mission isn't that satisfying despite how impressive the Wanzers and weapons look. Ultimately you can wind up staring at a grid for a long time, pressing a button, and then watching the action unfold a few seconds later while you sit back with your hands off the controller. As I wrote, that can be fun, but it's not moment-to-moment fun or satisfaction. The same applies to most of the games I've worked on. You can coordinate your characters well, but a lot of the time is spent watching what they're doing instead of giving input on what they are doing -- or the results of the input are synchronized in such a way that you don't typically feel the impact of them. De-synched, generic hit reactions that have to handle combat between dozens of enemy and weapon types, actions that take place after monumental pauses where the characters need to queue up in the game's constructed combat round, etc.

 

I know a lot of people enjoyed the combat in the Infinity Engine games and NWN games, but did it ever put you at the edge of your seat? Did it ever make you jump up or reflexively shift your body during gameplay? That wasn't my experience. Cerebral vs. visceral satisfaction aren't in opposition to each other, and neither is inherently more virtuous than the other, but I think it's important for us as developers to think hard about what sort of experience we want the player to have given a variety of expectations.

I thought Front Mission 3 combat was actually quite exciting. Especially once you get the secret Wanzer with the energy gun that can destroy any part it hits. It wasn't F.E.A.R. exciting, but I did punch my fist into the air a few times. And that little thing where you do like an arm pump downwards or whatever? A few of those went in there, too.

 

Of course, that may have been due more to EXPLOSIONS than gameplay.

Edited November 15, 200718 yr by Tale

Melee combat can feel bad in any perspective if it isn't executed properly. I don't think that the best 1st person melee games (DMoMM, Riddick, Oblivion) hold up against the best 3rd person melee games (DMC3, Ninja Gaiden, God of War) in terms of that gameplay.

 

This just highlights the lack of proper melee combat in PC games. Considering how good and cheap, PC gamepads have become, there really is no proper excuse for this. I want God of War on the PC!

 

 

Is your aim to make a PC game with proper melee combat, Josh? I remember you posting on the PNJ forums about RPGs and their lack of good combat. It's just that I'd totally play a God of War RPG, and I've never seen such a game. Jade Empire tried, but unfortunately failed on the combat side of things.

It wasn't F.E.A.R. exciting

 

I thought FEAR was the same gimmic brushed off and used 1999999 times. Another cutscene with a ghost,,, ehh yeah,,, booh ?.

I was talking about exciting, not scary. Try to keep up. FEAR had terrific combat.

"Apologies to Bio and Bio-fans for the comment about various ME things "look[ing] dumb". It's less than helpful/"professional" to post a comment like that in a casual blog entry. I mistakenly thought no one really cared what I wrote anywhere anymore. Whoops."

 

if it makes you fell better, Gromnir thinks you got your head lodged firmly up your arse 'bout 50% of the time, and we give your views 'bout games/gaming in general only slightly more weight than we does similar opinion type comments made by vol or vis.

 

...

 

in point o' fact, am typically more than slightly mortified when Gromnir finds that he is in complete agreement with josh on some subject or other.

 

ever see Ben-hur? recall that portion o' the movie when charlie heston is a slave rowing on the roman trimerene? is a big ugly who beats on a drum to keeps all the slaves rowing at appropriate rate o' speed. as far as game development goes, we thinks josh makes an excellent big ugly drum pounder... keep all the little obsidian slaves rowing at right speed. am not such a fan o' josh writing/story contributions, and am often baffled by his firmly held beliefs 'bout certain d&d rulez applications, but when josh is the guy beating on the drum, the obsidian slaves all seems to row together efficiently.

 

so, if it makes you feel better, know that there is at least one guy who still don't take josh too serious.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps don't let josh mess up story, dialogues or character interactions in this aliens game... keeps him pounding the drum and everything will be ship shape and bristol fashion.

Meh, above average for that type of game. Me I didn't like many of the guns, not enough umph, and whats with the dual wielding pistols.

 

One or two levels were quite good. Like the first time the invisible whatchamacallems appear.

What a jerk, Gromnir. Still that has to be one of the funniest posts I've read in a long time. I don't agree. Sawyer has a lot of great ideas. Hell, when it comes right down to it, Vis and Vol have some good ideas also. Their arguments can be confusing, but some of their ideas are quite good. ...and most of you folks think about this stuff a lot more than me. Good Lord, I was wiping tears out of my eyes, but that was just simply too harsh.

 

Okay, I will offer some slight criticism. Sawyer is great for thinking of technical issues. In point of fact, point for your point, I don't think his design work fails at the technical level. The problem is, he seems to approach the writing in the same way. I don't think it's possible to see the big picture when you pore over the technical details with a jeweler's monocle. Writing requires taking a lot of chances, and it's hard to take real chances when you associate creative genius with technical excellence. Following the rules can produce serviceable writing, which is fine as long as your goal is serviceable writing.

 

Sawyer has had some great story ideas over the years. In fact, I saw some gems in Icewind Dale 2. The ideas he's proposed have real merit. They're just a bit sterile.

 

However, I have no doubt that Aliens will thrive in Sawyer's hands. I firmly believe that he will deliver the goods on this title. What little I saw of it looked good. It was certainly enough to draw my attention away from the office around me, which was quite a feat considering the office.

Edited November 16, 200718 yr by Cantousent

the best 1st person melee games (DMoMM, Riddick, Oblivion) hold up against the best 3rd person melee games (DMC3, Ninja Gaiden, God of War) in terms of that gameplay.

 

Which is funny, since at least two of the FPS games try to vaigely simulate 'real' melee combat, while all three of the third person games have zero actual sembalance to it, both in terms of the characters abilities and the way that the player controls that chracter.

Poindexter games can be satisfying on an intellectual level. ToEE was a very satisfying game. BG2 also had some very challenging combats that were intellectually satisfying to overcome. But they aren't viscerally satisfying -- at least not for me. I get a certain excitement out of rolling in tabletop (last night my cleric got 12 on 2d6 for a very important turn attempt) because of the risk and the fact that I'm actually rolling physical dice. I don't get that in CRPGs where I'm sitting back and watching my dudes standing in place, cycling through attack animations over and over. I don't even get that in Front Mission 4, where every attack is "cinematically" framed and presented as a mini-cutscene. It can take half an hour to outfit your guys for one fight and then another 45 minutes to resolve that fight in Front Mission 4. Before each character's turn, you can spend up to a minute looking around at various options (mostly due to attack and defense links in the late game) before you select and resolve the action. That can be very fun, but it's not viscerally satisfying.

This comes down to preference issue. Some people like simulations rather than directly controlling particular characters. Even in sports games, there are two categories: a game where you directly control each player and a game you play as a manager, for example. In conventional CRPG, the simulation essence has been focused on combat except a few examples such as Fall Out, which inherited simulationist factor from GURPS. In current video game industry, somehow sims are more akin to this type of RPG. Coming to think of it, it is somehow odd that the Elder Scroll series are action/stat hybrid. However, since Obsidian is known for story-driven RPGs, I don't think the sandbox world simulation gameplay would fit.

 

It was a great attempt, but I feel that a 1st person perspective will always handicap melee. The biggest problems are low situational awareness (due to the proximity of enemies and the limitations of FoV -- in fact the DMoMM designer admitted that enemies effectively hold back when out of view to deal with this problem), poor readability of your own character's attacks (for the same reason), and poor depth perception (a DMoMM designer admitted that their hit detection effectively "cheats" to help the player).

 

I sort of view first-person melee like turbine-powered motorcycles. You can make a well-executed turbine-powered motorcycle. Unfortunately, turbines are poorly suited for the sort of use that motorcycles actually see in most applications. DMoMM was the most viscerally satisfying first-person melee I've seen yet, but I found it frustrating to actually play.

How about the immersion factor? The first person view is effectively used especially in horror and survival genre. Shock series are well known for this and Vampire the Masquarade:Bloodlines and Thief: Deadly Shadows had areas themed with horror. Some FPS such as S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and F.E.A.R. use this theme, too. Personally, I cannot associate Aliens with these kinds of acrobatic action games you listed i.e. DMC3, Ninja Gaiden, God of War. Even Splinter Cell actions would be suitable to those in fast-paced action movies. Personally, I don't think a better melee combat is a good trade-off for the immersion factor especially in a game themes Aliens. In your list, I think somewhere near to Riddick would be more suitable. Yes, this is a "genre" discussion but I believe the game graphics came to this level of presentation, which, I think, can be risky because of the expectation of the audiences/players when the designers are accustomed to "RPG" genre where the graphics demands are rather forgiving. Some ex-Troika people in your team may bitterly remember the heart-breaking difference in the graphics between Bloodlines and Half Life 2, though. :'(

Personally, I found Vampire: Bloodline's 3rd person melee great. But at the same time I loved System Shock 2's first person melee. Maybe because it was so deadly AND because you could often use it to your advantage (quickly in, hit quickly out for zombies, and for robots they couldn't target you very well at close range).

How about the immersion factor? The first person view is effectively used especially in horror and survival genre.

The most successful survival horror game of the past few years has to be Resident Evil 4. Not that it didn't have problems (like all games), but it received very high acclaim and sold pretty darn well. You could chalk it up to hype, but I think it's because it was very well done. I think their 3rd person camera worked very well and still allowed for a lot of immersion.

 

Speaking of Bloodlines and bitterness, some Bloodlines players may bitterly remember trying to fire a gun. Bloodlines tried to faithfully implement something resembling the Storyteller combat system, so you can start out aiming a revolver at a garbage can at point blank range and hitting the wall several feet to the left of your crosshair. Similarly, Morrowind would have you actively swinging a sword through targets and then "missing" according to the rules. It's the execution in this sort of "RPG"/action hybridization that I think winds up creating more disconnection than satisfaction. It puts things partially in player control, but either simulates something in the background (e.g. Bloodlines, Morrowind) or has input/timing/collision issues (Jade Empire, DMoMM) that can make some players (like myself) step back and say, "What the heck?" You feel more in control of the moment-to-moment actions of your character, but the connection drops every time the game defies your expectations.

 

The focus of what I have been describing is visceral response and connection to action. It doesn't apply only to melee combat, as the gunplay in Bloodlines and Deus Ex shows. It could also apply to stealth, as I have described before. Oblivion's stealth uses a stat to modify your ability to hide in darkness, but the player is still required to actively hide and move from shadow to shadow. It doesn't really "randomly" determine if you are seen or not, as it would in a D&D CRPG. It's pretty deterministic, and the player is in control both of his or her character's actions and how he or she builds that character's stats. It could apply to anything, really. You could have variable jumping heights that are randomized according to an RPG stat. Are players going to be satisfied that sometimes their characters jump 5' and sometimes 8' each time the player presses the jump button? I'm sure some people would be. I just think they are in the minority.

 

As I suggested, once you start gaining direct control over a character, there are a lot of ways to make it feel bad. I think "Action RPGs" are some of the worst culprits of this, either due to poor execution or an intentional desire to simulate things out of player control and observation. When I play Temple of Elemental Evil and tell my character to swing a sword, if he rolls low, the game has not defied my expectations. It's as pure of a D&D simulation as you can get without a DM, pure Poindexter. When I play Morrowind, press a button, and swing a sword through a guy's head in the middle of a heated combat only to see that I "missed" -- well, I know didn't screw up. A lot more people seemed to enjoy the melee combat in Oblivion than Morrowind, and I don't think it's just because the graphics improved.

 

To turn this topic to something less focused on general game design discussion and more toward Aliens, I would like people to describe what they would expect from the action of an Aliens RPG -- everything ranging from perspective to the use of weapons to sneaking to using computers, etc. I have found that a lot of people simply can't reconcile the idea of an RPG in the Aliens universe, and it often comes down to a disconnect between the association of fast-paced action with the Aliens universe and slow-paced gameplay with the RPG genre. This is a conversation in which I won't participate for obvious reasons, but it's very interesting to see what people say.

To turn this topic less focused on general game design discussion and more toward Aliens, I would like people to describe what they would expect from the action of an Aliens RPG -- everything ranging from perspective to the use of weapons to sneaking to using computers, etc. I have found that a lot of people simply can't reconcile the idea of an RPG in the Aliens universe, and it often comes down to a disconnect between the association of fast-paced action with the Aliens universe and slow-paced gameplay with the RPG genre. This is a conversation in which I won't participate for obvious reasons, but it's very interesting to see what people say.

 

I don

To turn this topic to something less focused on general game design discussion and more toward Aliens, I would like people to describe what they would expect from the action of an Aliens RPG -- everything ranging from perspective to the use of weapons to sneaking to using computers, etc.

Combat: I would expect combat to be fast paced, loud, and not overly frequent. Aliens should die quickly and come in swarms. The fast pacing is to truly get the tension up and try to keep the player feeling like they're on their toes (not necessarilly running around, but keeping them active, even if it's just to change targets). Loud hopefully enhances the visceral experience while giving a movielike experience of the pulse rifle and smart gun firing. Infrequent is for pacing between overly tense moments and so your ear drums don't burst.

 

Use of weapons: No melee weapons, first. I see no use for them. The most melee the game should have is pistols and shotguns. I see a little room for melee vs facehuggers, but don't see why pistols and shotguns can't resolve it. As for the action of the use of weapons, well it ties a lot into combat and perspective already mentioned. Third person and fast paced. I'm all for assigned targetting, however that may not be visceral enough. But, I'd be afraid it would feel more like a shooter otherwise, unless it leans towards an RPG with crappy shooting mechanics (Bloodlines and, I know I'm often alone in this, Deus Ex). I would think skill improvement could improve accuracy, but you're not rubbish at the onset. Skills as you gain in proficiency would be important, especially ones that allow you to kill more aliens quicker. Secondary fires are often important, underside grenade launcher on the pulse rifle being what I'm thinking of when I say that.

 

Perspective: Third-person Most appropriate for situational awareness, which is highly important in an Alien game.

 

Stealth: Stealth of humans in the Alien movies is limited. Except for Newt, it doesn't really exist.

The Aliens themselves though, stealth is a big game. I would expect their stealth to be the result of blending in with the environment, not showing up on thermal imaging, and using alternate routes, essentially functional stealth as opposed to D&D cRPG style abstraction.

 

Computers: I don't know that there's a lot that needs to be done with computers in order to make a game feel like Aliens. Not saying that there doesn't need to be computer interaction, I'm saying I don't know how detailed the interaction mechanics really need to be. I could easily see the game getting away with very simple interfaces. Status bars that move faster depending upon use ability and computers that only serve one function It's not optimal, but I can see the game getting away with that.

 

Healing: I have no bloody clue what to expect here. Fantasy games, first person shooters, and tons of games in general get away with immediate healing, whether it's potions, healthkits, blue orbs, or mysteriously found potted plants. I want to say I would expect something different from an Aliens game, but that's not an expectation I can hold on to. It's hard to expect that behavior from anything but fantasy games, but somehow it works in every game out there.

 

 

The main thing I expect is for combat to be fast, loud, and accessible and well paced. And that "stealth" doesn't consist of D&D cRPG style stealth.

 

Edit: For removing things that sound more like I'm suggesting design over effect.

Edited November 16, 200718 yr by Tale

To turn this topic to something less focused on general game design discussion and more toward Aliens, I would like people to describe what they would expect from the action of an Aliens RPG -- everything ranging from perspective to the use of weapons to sneaking to using computers, etc. I have found that a lot of people simply can't reconcile the idea of an RPG in the Aliens universe, and it often comes down to a disconnect between the association of fast-paced action with the Aliens universe and slow-paced gameplay with the RPG genre. This is a conversation in which I won't participate for obvious reasons, but it's very interesting to see what people say.

 

 

The only way I see an Aliens RPG work is as a System Shock 2/DeusEx type of RPG. So as such, first person view, multiple ways of solving situations, and a strong narrative would be essential, from my point of view. Also, regarding combat, I don't think it should be stat based at all, for the same reasons you have already stated. Stats should only affect dialogue, hacking, weapon modding and the like. This way, it should be possible to get Aliens style visceral combat, while at the same time having a good measure of standard RPG goodness. Special abilities are something that may affect combat. Things like recoil, reload speed, or the ability to use certain weapons could be affected by these.

 

Regarding sneaking, I think it depends on which races you can play, and which races you can play against. Sneaking should be possible against other humans, but obviously, not possible against aliens. I'm assuming that the player will always be a human, as I don't see how it would be possible to have various playable races in an Aliens RPG, short of creating a completely different storyline for each race.

That's one thing I have hearty expectations against. Making it a FPS with only some RPG elements (first person view with non-stat based combat), like you're recommending Pidesco. My number one reason for this expectation is that Gearbox are working on the FPS and it should be more mechanically distinct from what they're doing.

Edited November 16, 200718 yr by Tale