Mask of the Betrayer Redux

[Pop]

If the audience loses patience it's because they're morons.

 

I bet thats what all the would be Stephen Kings' say when they get their rejection letters.

If would be Stephen Kings have skewed expecations, yeah. MotB was an RPG. A DnD RPG. A DnD RPG from Obsidian entertainment, makers of KOTOR2. If somebody seriously complains about how everybody talks for long periods of time and usually not about immediately pressing matters I'd wager they either never played a DnD CRPG before in their lives or knew what they were getting into but still somehow felt entitled to something different. Like somebody getting up in the morning hoping the sky would be red and being disappointed when it wasn't. There have been enough games of this type by now that you shouldn't honestly expect a core element like reams and reams of dialogue to go away without it becoming unrecognizable. If it bothers you that much you should look elsewhere for your enjoyment. But optimally, it shouldn't bother you.

Edited November 8, 2007 by Pop

[Gorgon]

You don't get it and I have a feeling you are not going to try either even after I explain it again, but here goes : it's the segmentation and the lack of escape routes that's problematic, not the concept of an in depth conversation.

[Big Bottom]

I'm enjoying NWN2 a lot, and the writing is very, very good in places, but the NWN2 engine is not particularly good when you compare it to just about any other current engine. I can only run this game the way it was meant to be played (*pukes*) a year after release with a brand new PC, it's more demanding than Crysis ffs.

[Colrom]

Pop, maybe you don't understand the dialog complaint.

 

Long dialogs are not a problem. I like lots of dialog and long dialogs. Torment was fine. Bring it on!

 

No-escape-decide-the-fate-of-the-world-now-no-you-can't-review-the-options-trap-dialogs are a problem. Think of the decision at the gate. It may not really be that important but you don't know that when you have to make a decision and can't remember that long dialog.

 

Long dialogs that trap you so that you cannot either review the earlier parts of the dialog (you can't use that record screen of actions and dialog and stuff which is on the left side when are in dialog) or say "Hey, wait a minute, lets go over that bit about the deadly killer enemy behind door 21 or 12 or whatever that number was once more. I do't think I quite got all the important facts - like what whether the number on that door was 21 or 12 - the first time around." and then expect you to make important decisions while still in the same dialog - they are a problem.

 

I hate memory checks. Sometimes my wife decides to talk to me about taking out the garbage or tells me dinner will be ready in five minutes or my dog decides he wants to play ball or my son calls or something right in the middle and I can't remember every thing when I get back to it.

 

All that is necessary is a choice at the decision point that says "Now that I see where this was all going Lets go over your comments again before I make my decision."

Edited November 8, 2007 by Colrom

[Spider]

you can't use that record screen of actions and dialog and stuff which is on the left side when are in dialog

 

I'm fairly sure you can. Not when you are in movie-style dialogue of course, but otherwise the scroll wheel on the mouse works just fine iirc.

[Colrom]

you can't use that record screen of actions and dialog and stuff which is on the left side when are in dialog

 

I'm fairly sure you can. Not when you are in movie-style dialogue of course, but otherwise the scroll wheel on the mouse works just fine iirc.

 

Ah. Maybe. I'll check it out and let you know.

[Colrom]

you can't use that record screen of actions and dialog and stuff which is on the left side when are in dialog

 

I'm fairly sure you can. Not when you are in movie-style dialogue of course, but otherwise the scroll wheel on the mouse works just fine iirc.

 

Ah. Maybe. I'll check it out and let you know.

 

Nope. My scroll wheel makes the camera move in and out - even when I'm in dialog.

 

Maybe you have it configured differently?

[Spider]

Or it could just be my memory failing me. I can't reproduce it anyway. I was so sure because I remembered thinking it annoying as well, until I found that scroll mechanism. But I guess it was just wishful thinking.

 

(outside of dialogue, the mousewheel works just fine though, as long as the pointer hovers above the text area)

[Morgoth]

Now I finally finished MOTB.

 

What a blast! You're awesome, Obsidian! And I really hope there'll be a second Expansion.

[Wombat]

Finally I became able to my hands on Mask of the Betrayer. Despite of all the nuisances, this game has a charm. I have to say that I have been hooked to the game till I finished the first chapter. I stopped there only because of the necessity outside of the game. Probably, this could be my best among other Obsidian works. I couldn't finish the original campaign because I was not happy with the content but so far I found MotB worth more than all the money I spent on both the OC and the expansion. Of course, I noticed a few things which probably put off those who are not hardcore RPG players but, for me, the most important part is the content.

 

If there is solid content, I don't mind some inconveniences such as camera angles which persistently tries to focus on odd things. Probably the most of the average gamers are not happy with reading the dialog texts on the small window while the camera showing a roof of a huge building or legs of their characters. I, myself found this breaks immersion at times outside the annoyances of adjusting the camera every now and then. In trying not to miss a thing, I need to rotate the camera in every single room which I enter... I feel Obsidian is still struggling to adopt themselves to the 3D realm.

 

As for companion NPCs, they have their own agendas/beliefs and seem to be interesting enough.

At the moment I am accompanying Gann, the Dove and Safiya. I am not sure of Safiya but she reminds me of the elven druid in the OC somehow. Gann is a character of Chris Avellone as he spoiled that in his well-intended but too early entry in his blog here. The Dove reminds me of Fall from Grace somehow but most likely written by J.E.Sawyer.

In the OC, there are sober characters and funny ones but I feel they are spread thin. MotB seems only to have sober ones but they are much more interesting than ones in the OC, IMO. I fell a possible problem with them may be that the pacing in the plot and the revelation of the mysteries of the characters ending up being not well-calculated. I am still in the early part of the chapter 2 and have already a devote and two royal characters, who are giving away too early, I feel. This may be good for making characters distinctive but bad for keeping them mysterious. Some characters may be expectable but I'd like some of them not to be so. This may be a response to the complaints on the OC, about which some people complained of the unexpected betrayals, though.

 

The setting is much more interesting than usual "fantasy" settings. Various religions, philosophy, and the world-views play as a bridge between individuals and the world, nicely combined with NPC agendas including the companions. This reminds me of Planescape: Torment but more to the direction of TES: Morrowind, which is a melting pot of various factions and religions, making the setting more extroverted.

 

I like the new enhancement system, which may not be so royal to D&D formula but I am enjoying the freedom of shaping equipments to fit my liking.

 

There are many things to be solved in different ways and a lot of opportunities for the role-playing. It is a shame that it would be difficult to balance the net experience points, which may be related with some people complaining on the difficulty as well as the spirit-meter.

 

I don't have experience enough to judge spirit-eater mechanism but judging from the manual, it doesn't seem to be so bad. I feel it's more like an purer incarnation of the Bhaal spawn curse/blessing in Baldur's Gates: the chosen one setting where the protagonist happens to have this power and it depends on him/her whether he/she embraces it, rejects it, or tries to find a better use of it. The concept is good but the possible problem is that it definitely adds yet another thing to be micro-managed and once it becomes a micromanagement, the magic of immersion will be dispelled and there would appear silly mini-games where the players forced to play... I think I found a way to deal with the meter but glancing at the spirit-meter occasionally while exploring the maps throughly is becoming a routine. My protagonist is a silver-tongued rogue and I wouldn't like to be penalized by my play style.

 

Combat is moderately challenging at the normal mode, means just about. I prefer puppet mode so I can say nothing about the AI but, so far, the spell effect is too shiny for me to see what is going on at times. I know the effect is well-intended but even the strategy mode doesn't help. I blame the D&D system for the obsessive level of the usage of the bombarding spells, though.

 

So far, I am very happy with the game but I cannot but feel that, combined with the new (3D camera) and old micro-management routines, some well-intended implements may end up with just annoyances for the majority and partially even to myself. Then again, a part of me makes me feel guilty when criticizing such a game crafted with conscience.

 

Probably, my comment is disorganized but I'd like to spend my time on playing the game rather than writing this. I just wanted to say that I am enjoying the game. I feel this is going to be the best game by Obsidian but, at the same time, the direction may not be so good business-wise.

[Morgoth]

[...] I feel this is going to be the best game by Obsidian but, at the same time, the direction may not be so good business-wise.

Perhaps, but Feargus once stated that besides having a healthy mix of console/PC and own IPs/third-party franchises in development, Obsidian always intends to have one PC hardcore-RPG in development too, even if that means they have to fund it largely from their own pockets. I find this attitude admirable, because they're actually aware of the risk of not always making 100% profitable games.

 

Anyway, MOTB was awesome, not matter what the "professionalist" say.

[Gorgon]

Yeah, too bad about the engine. Imagine what obsidian could have done with a Morrowind expansion for instance.

[Wombat]

[...] I feel this is going to be the best game by Obsidian but, at the same time, the direction may not be so good business-wise.

Perhaps, but Feargus once stated that besides having a healthy mix of console/PC and own IPs/third-party franchises in development, Obsidian always intends to have one PC hardcore-RPG in development too, even if that means they have to fund it largely from their own pockets. I find this attitude admirable, because they're actually aware of the risk of not always making 100% profitable games.

I found taking such comments seriously is amiable...just kidding. I guess I read too much of cynical dialogs of a certain NPC. I may be suffering this post-Troika syndrome. I wrote about the commercial side since I noticed the unexpected popularity of the Witcher. Between the Witcher and MotB, you can see the "professional scores" are not that different but non-professional ones are dramatically different. Furthermore, even codex seems to like the Witcher. I'd like to see the reason with my own eyes but my hands are full with MotB at the moment and I am not going to buy the Witcher near future.

 

Yeah, too bad about the engine. Imagine what obsidian could have done with a Morrowind expansion for instance.

I wonder if I even need to point this out but you took that part totally about of context. The comment about Morrowind was only about the content related with religions/social beliefs not about the engine. Oblivion may look better but its content was toned down to a generic and simplistic everyone's fantasy world.

[Xard]

[...] I feel this is going to be the best game by Obsidian but, at the same time, the direction may not be so good business-wise.

Perhaps, but Feargus once stated that besides having a healthy mix of console/PC and own IPs/third-party franchises in development, Obsidian always intends to have one PC hardcore-RPG in development too, even if that means they have to fund it largely from their own pockets. I find this attitude admirable, because they're actually aware of the risk of not always making 100% profitable games.

I found taking such comments seriously is amiable...just kidding. I guess I read too much of cynical dialogs of a certain NPC. I may be suffering this post-Troika syndrome. I wrote about the commercial side since I noticed the unexpected popularity of the Witcher. Between the Witcher and MotB, you can see the "professional scores" are not that different but non-professional ones are dramatically different. Furthermore, even codex seems to like the Witcher. I'd like to see the reason with my own eyes but my hands are full with MotB at the moment and I am not going to buy the Witcher near future.

 

Ermm...

 

Both MotB and The Witcher has been receiving praise (and criticism), especially from hc roleplaying groups.

 

So what's the difference?

[Wombat]

Both MotB and The Witcher has been receiving praise (and criticism), especially from hc roleplaying groups.

 

So what's the difference?

Non-professional scores by not-so-dedicated RPG fans - the Witcher seems to be getting higher average scores from users even in sites such as Gamespot.

[Xard]

And that's surprise?

[Musopticon?]

It has boobs and blood, of course Gamespotters and Gamefa...qqers love it.

[Wombat]

And that's surprise?

To me, yes. A story-driven European RPG from a namless developer gets equal or more scores than those of popular FPS games from the users in such sites are not what I expected.

 

It has boobs and blood, of course Gamespotters and Gamefa...qqers love it.

Haha, I must admit: Sex sells. Watching the game-ranking, I am now convinced that the designers implemented the "f**k-them-up" feature as a ploy to penetrate into American market with this low-budget advertisement. In the Witcher's case, however, it seems to have more charm than that feature since, judging from some of the reviews I read, some reviewers definitely have their brains on their shoulders. It makes a great difference when it is the only feature of the game or it is just an optional addition to deeper and/or interesting content. Then again, everything comes with cost: in the future, a game with this kind of "feature" may become called a "Polish/European game."

Edited November 13, 2007 by Wombat

[Musopticon?]

Apparently the books are a lot more gritty than what the game shows. I doubt that they added the adult aspect there just because it would sell the game. Surely it probably amounted in the decision to add the tarot cards and whatnot, but I think Geralt's donjuanism(hahhah, neologistic disaster has born) is by-the-books. Not really integral, but a flavor that, should it be omitted, without it the Witcher as an adaptation would not be true to it's roots.

 

That's how I see it, at least.

 

Ugh, I wish to eventually get to play it. This is more of a discussion for the Witcher thread, however.

Edited November 13, 2007 by Musopticon?

[Wombat]

Ugh, I wish to eventually get to play it. This is more of a discussion for the Witcher thread, however.

 

Oops, sorry for dragging yous to off-topic area. I guess it's time for me to go back to MotB experience.

[Gorgon]

I wonder if I even need to point this out but you took that part totally about of context. The comment about Morrowind was only about the content related with religions/social beliefs not about the engine. Oblivion may look better but its content was toned down to a generic and simplistic everyone's fantasy world.

I just meant that the NWN2 engine is not very good. Mainly there is the basic problem of the camera which was never solved to satisfaction. If they had had a decent platform to make the game it would have been even more enjoyable.

[Gromnir]

could somebody explain what is the camera issue? some folks really is torqued by nwn2 camera, and Gromnir has never really "got" this criticism as the strategic view is pretty much where we live... zoom in and out sometimes.

 

 

*shrug*

 

btw, anybody heard anything 'bout the patch?

 

HA! Good fun!

[Volourn]

The issue is that the camera often times makes it so you can't see your characters as it blocks your view with buildings and other crap. This happens a lot on area transitions. It's plain annoying. What's the point of having isometric/3rd person if you can't see the party. It's just plain annoying. Not a game breaker; but still annoying.

[Starwars]

btw, anybody heard anything 'bout the patch?

 

Rob posted on the Bioware NWN2 toolset forums a few days ago that 1.11 is currently being tested.

[Gromnir]

The issue is that the camera often times makes it so you can't see your characters as it blocks your view with buildings and other crap. This happens a lot on area transitions. It's plain annoying. What's the point of having isometric/3rd person if you can't see the party. It's just plain annoying. Not a game breaker; but still annoying.

 

 

...

 

dunno. there is almost no times where/when Gromnir can't simply rotate camera slightly to gets a good view. area transitions? ok, take 2 seconds to pull back and rotate left or right with camera. THAT is the big camera stink?

 

okie dokie.

 

HA! Good Fun!