This weeks hot topic: Immigrants

[Sand]

I don't mind immigrants as long as they immigrated legally.

[taks]

ayup.

 

taks

[Dark_Raven]

I like when people from up north or the east talk about immigration and how we should embrace these people. The U.S should close the borders up on Mexico and deport a large portion of illegals back. Especially ones that have been deported in the past or committed crimes. And since they came here illegally, that means they committed a crime and all of them should go back to their own damn country and fix it instead of bringing down America's standard of living. I mean yeah it sucks they live in poverty and stuff but that sure as hell isn't my fault that their country sucks. I mean all they have to do is go French style and the government should listen. We have a system that lets people come to our country legally and they are just bypassing that and screwing over a bunch of people. Everyone acts like we owe them something because they do crap jobs but if they were really in demand the government would of opened up more slots for immigrants to legally come to America to fill those jobs. It's not like they bring anything useful to the U.S. It would be fine if they brought a rich culture but they don't, a taco stand and still living in slums isn't culture, or maybe it is. /bigotry - to be continued.

 

I like this. America needs to shut its borders to immigration. We have plenty of people here. Its bad enough the damn government bends over backwords to help these people out by making them tax exempt and other benefits of being an LEGAL immigrant that the naturally born can't get.

[Dark_Raven]

Ok slug, I'll meet you out in fields and at the construction sites and we can tackle all the "non-useful" labor jobs that illegal immigrants fill.

 

Seriously, the US economy relies heavily on illegal immigration.

Last I checked there is plenty of unemployment and homeless people in this country who can fill that role. Money is money. They need to get back on their feet instead of welching off of others.

[Guard Dog]

I'm with Sand and Taks.

[Dark_Raven]

I'm with me, myself and I.

[Hurlshort]

Ok slug, I'll meet you out in fields and at the construction sites and we can tackle all the "non-useful" labor jobs that illegal immigrants fill.

 

Seriously, the US economy relies heavily on illegal immigration.

Last I checked there is plenty of unemployment and homeless people in this country who can fill that role. Money is money. They need to get back on their feet instead of welching off of others.

 

Do you live in the real world? Homeless people and the unemployed refuse to do these jobs. The US doesn't follow a communist model, the government isn't going to assign jobs to people. OUR ECONOMY WILL COLLAPSE WITHOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION LABOR. That's reality. Undocumented labor is what keeps the agricultural and construction industries moving forward. They are often working below minimum wage, which sounds terrible for legalized workers, but a decent percentage of undocumented laborers send the money home to their families in Mexico. That money goes a lot further in Mexico and is beyond what they can earn in their own country.

 

Seriously, I worry tremendously about this whole "close the borders" mentality because in the end, it will hurt both the US and Mexico. Even the Republicans, who run on a campaign that preys on the fears Americans have over border issues, understand the need for migrant labor. If Bush is pushing for 8 million undocumented immigrants to be given worker visas, you've got to realize the problem isn't one that can be fixed by pulling from our unemployment field. The problem is our immigration policies that have been introduced over the last 13 years (since Mexico nearly imploded in 94) have been overloaded with so many stipulations that neither conservatives nor liberals find it favorable.

 

I don't understand why it's so hard to see how important it is to build a solid working relationship with Mexico over the immigration issue. We need the labor, they need the monetary infusion and economic stability. But as long as Americans keep this xenophobic mentality, bridges will not be built. What kind of neighbors ignore the plight next door and just try and build a taller fence so they don't have to look at the problem?

 

Oh, and American culture shouldn't need to tear down other cultures in order to stay strong. It should be able to rely on its own merits and not be afraid of other cultures. Diversity has always enriched our nation, I don't know why people think this will be any different.

[Sand]

Then maybe we need an economic overhaul, Hurlshot. We need to remove the need of illegal immigrant workers. We need to punish businesses who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, and punish these people as well with more than just deportation. They are criminals. They broken the law. They need to be dealt with and with all criminals they need to be dealt with harshly.

 

If these workers don't l;ike the law then tough. Those who support the workers in this country need to work on changing the law, but until they do the law is the law, and if these illegal immigrants can't even respect the laws in this country then they have no right to be in this country. Just because you disagree with the law does not give you the right to ignore it.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Sand

[taks]

Do you live in the real world? Homeless people and the unemployed refuse to do these jobs. The US doesn't follow a communist model, the government isn't going to assign jobs to people.

no, instead it just pays the bills for them... wait, that's the communist model, isn't it?

 

OUR ECONOMY WILL COLLAPSE WITHOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION LABOR. That's reality.

that's nonsense. certainly we need legal immigrants, but not illegal. like it or not, if there weren't illegal immigrants, there'd either be a) more legal immigrants in order to deal with the jobs or b) higher pay which would result in more US citizens taking the jobs. take the excess surplus out of the market and the wages will naturally rise. in either case, to justify letting millions of undocumented law breakers into the nation simply because "we're too elite" to take the crap jobs is even more nonsense.

 

Undocumented labor is what keeps the agricultural and construction industries moving forward. They are often working below minimum wage, which sounds terrible for legalized workers, but a decent percentage of undocumented laborers send the money home to their families in Mexico. That money goes a lot further in Mexico and is beyond what they can earn in their own country.

you're justifying breaking one law, i.e. illegal immigration, with the breaking another? uh... hello, you're lecturing us on reality?

 

Seriously, I worry tremendously about this whole "close the borders" mentality because in the end, it will hurt both the US and Mexico. Even the Republicans, who run on a campaign that preys on the fears Americans have over border issues, understand the need for migrant labor.

there's a difference between needing immigrants and simply allowing anyone to walk in to the country.

 

If Bush is pushing for 8 million undocumented immigrants to be given worker visas, you've got to realize the problem isn't one that can be fixed by pulling from our unemployment field. The problem is our immigration policies that have been introduced over the last 13 years (since Mexico nearly imploded in 94) have been overloaded with so many stipulations that neither conservatives nor liberals find it favorable.

and bush is pushing for republican votes, hoping to get some of the "swing" while keeping the heat off of the republicans from mouthy democrats. the polls are in, well over a super majority of US citizens favor closing the borders.

 

I don't understand why it's so hard to see how important it is to build a solid working relationship with Mexico over the immigration issue. We need the labor, they need the monetary infusion and economic stability. But as long as Americans keep this xenophobic mentality, bridges will not be built. What kind of neighbors ignore the plight next door and just try and build a taller fence so they don't have to look at the problem?

why doesn't mexico work on its own issues first? we have enough problems of our own that we shouldn't be worried about supporting our corrupt neighbors. canada is doing fine...

 

Oh, and American culture shouldn't need to tear down other cultures in order to stay strong. It should be able to rely on its own merits and not be afraid of other cultures. Diversity has always enriched our nation, I don't know why people think this will be any different.

no, but it is pretty apparent much of the rest of the world is attempting to tear down ours. i agree, why should we be any different? why should we be asked to do what others refuse to do, hmmm?

 

taks

[Hurlshort]

What a wonderful, black and white world you live in.

 

edit: That was for Judge Hades.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Hurlshot

[Sand]

What a wonderful, black and white world you live in.

The law is the law. If one doen't like the law then use the system to change the law. Plain and simple.

[Walsingham]

Sando does tend to live in a 1890s world in most respects. However, I have to agree with him. With few exceptions (and none I can bring to mind) it is better to establish an official position than to turn a blind eye. Illegal immigrant populations suffer more or less needlessly from poor health and safety treatment, and are prey and fodder for organised crime, existing as they do beyond the law.

 

Why not institute guest worker status for these people? I haven't thought of this before, but isn't that what Germany does? Switzerland - and I find it repugnant myself - permits people to live and work there as basically slaves who hope to 'earn' tehir freedom as a Swiss citizen. A complex process.

[Sand]

A Guest Worker System would require a change in the law which I can support but those already in the US have already broken the law and should be rounded up and punished. They are criminals after all. Those who come in after a Guest Worker Program is on the books and is a law would not be criminals, obviously, and should be given the same basic employment rights that everyone recieves, such as minimum wage limits, workman's compensation, tax responsibilities, and so forth.

 

I am totally against any sort of amnesty for those who are already criminally inside the US.

[Walsingham]

Good idea. You've got plenty of spare capacity in your penal system for a couple million new persons.

 

MOreover did you stop to consider that these poor chaps are just looking for work? Does that make them evil?

[Tigranes]

Couple million? Probably more than that.

 

I was never really aware of how and how much illegal immigration effects the American economy, but on the assumption that what Hurlshot says is an astute judgment of the situation (since nobody's debunked it), it may be a good idea to 'stratify' the visa / immigration permissions; unskilled workers with poor English are given conditional and highly limited permits, while depending on factors such as work skill-sets and English proficiency they can 'upgrade' their position to a 'full' work visa or whatnot.

 

Anyway, as an Asian immigrant I'm shocked and offended, and I'm leaving this forum forever to frolick in the fields with EnderAndrew.

[Sand]

If they break the law they are criminals, regardless of their justifications. A man who steals bread because he is hungry is still a thief. I have no problem in setting up a Visa tiered system that allows unskilled immigrants into the country then give them an expanded Visa when they fulfill certain criteria up to a point in which they can be given full citizenship, but that would require a change in the law. What I am against is giving those who have already broken our current laws amnesty. They can leave, return to their country of origin and start at the back of the line and let those who respect our laws a first crack into our country.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Sand

[Walsingham]

I believe it would be an excellent idea to have a 'if you bust in you can never count on staying' rule. But it would need to be implimented from now on. the problem would be that this would make illegal immgrant communitie even more secretive and prone to problems and abuse.

 

Would I be being too much the copper if I suggested that the police should have powers to grant/boost an citizenship application in exchange for cooperation in tackling crime?

[Dark_Raven]

Do you live in the real world? Homeless people and the unemployed refuse to do these jobs.

Refuse? Can't refuse if you have no source of income or the means to feed yourself. In otherwords we need to redo the system so these leaches can't get any fedral or local aid. They're on their own. Get a job, than they will not have a problem.

 

The US doesn't follow a communist model, the government isn't going to assign jobs to people.

Maybe we should start to follow some Socialist and Communist ways. People need to think about the great whole and not themselves.

[astr0creep]

Immigrants are only good to fill in the gaps in a population decrease.

 

Once an acceptable number of people live in a country, borders should be closed.

 

Also, most countries in the world do not accept immgrants at all.

[Walsingham]

Also, most countries in the world do not accept immgrants at all.

 

 

Care to support that statement. I don't think I've ever been anywhere I couldn't have gone to live if I wanted to.

[Tale]

The US doesn't follow a communist model, the government isn't going to assign jobs to people.

Maybe we should start to follow some Socialist and Communist ways. People need to think about the great whole and not themselves.

Because when people, en masse, act for themselves within reasonable limits, through competing interests they establish niches and operate for a greater group than simply themselves. When a government tries to define the greater interest, it usually only defines the greater interest for the people in government, confines its people to those ends, and results in them acting out in exclusively individual interest. The larger the government is, the more detached from its people it becomes, and the more this problem appears.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Tale

[taks]

(since nobody's debunked it)

i have, and all i needed to do was question the hypothesis. there's nothing to support his claim.

 

it may be a good idea to 'stratify' the visa / immigration permissions; unskilled workers with poor English are given conditional and highly limited permits, while depending on factors such as work skill-sets and English proficiency they can 'upgrade' their position to a 'full' work visa or whatnot.

this is true.

 

Anyway, as an Asian immigrant I'm shocked and offended, and I'm leaving this forum forever to frolick in the fields with EnderAndrew.

are you an illegal immigrant? if not, then if i were you, i'd be pissed at all the illegals that reside in the country. as a legal alien, you have to go through quite a mess to get in... the illegals simply walk across the border and get even more protections than you, here legally.

 

taks

[Cantousent]

Haha, Tigranes, you swine. The silliest thing Ender ever did was run off in a huff. Since I can't hunt you down and make you return, I hope you'll forgive the offense given to immigrants everywhere.

 

Think of places in the cosmos where species yet untold sneak across the galaxy to live in spots with better suns. Just imagine, humans flying to alpha centauri with their matresses tied to the top of their spaceship. The locals complaining because we're taking jobs away from the home grown alpha centaurians but some defend us by saying, "We're an amorphous mass of ooze. We don't even have hands to do the jobs they do."

 

I don't think we should turn a blind eye to illegal immigration. I'm against it, 100%. However, it's a wedge issue for both sides and the fact that we can turn a blind eye to it is established by the fact that we have turned a blind eye to it for many years. The government has talked a lot about illegal immigration for a long time, but none have taken real measures to stop it. In that respect, while I disagree with Hurl that the economy would somehow crash without illegals, it still might be cost prohibitive to end illegal immigration.

[Guard Dog]

One thing to note here. Hurlshot is making the argument that because illegal immigrants are willing to come here and work for below minimum wage they are helping to lift are economy by keeping agriculture prices lower. If they were to be deported and farming interests forced to pay higher wages (we'll say minimum wage for the sake of discussion) then that would push the price of produce up to the point where US farm products would be more expensive than imported products. The implications there would be self evident.

 

Here is the thing, if all of the illegal workers were to be given legal status, they would then fall under the US labor laws concerning minimum wages, overtime pay, etc. Farms would then be forced to pay higher wages which would of course create the exact same scenario as if they were deported. Economically speaking. So we would be no better off and we would have millions of formerly illegal immigrants now living here.

 

Now if we do nothing, then these same illegal immigrants will still be living and working here, earning less than minimum wage (which is still better than Mexico), with no legal status, rights, or even ability to help themselves. That option sounds a little like slavery to me. Incidently, the argument that the southern economy depended on free labor was the used by the southern states to defend slavery prior to 1862.

 

So what is the answer? I do not have one. But it seems to me that waving a magic wand and giving legal status to ones here will have a lot on unintended bad consequences and few good ones. I am in favor of sealing the southern border and implementing a work visa that is regimented and enforced. And perfoming as complete a sweep as possible of the illegals living here now. Sand was right, the law may upset reason but reason may not upset the law. Or there is no law.

 

Now this may ultimately lead to the demise of big "super farms" such as the ones that US Sugar runs here in S. Florida. But this land is sutible for nothing other than agriculture and as the "super farms" fail they will parcel and sell their land back to private owners. Agriclture works on a smaller scale because costs are more controlled. Plus the federal government has never been shy about bolstering US agriculture by imposing tariffs on imports and subsidising US production (which is constitutionally allowed so no complaints from me ). And you all know I have never been a fan of macro-economics anyway.

[astr0creep]

Also, most countries in the world do not accept immgrants at all.

 

 

Care to support that statement. I don't think I've ever been anywhere I couldn't have gone to live if I wanted to.

 

A few years ago I was looking to move to another country and during my reasearch I found that the laws in most countries make immigration extremely restrictive. Not impossible but most countries actually care about who comes in. Not like Canada for example.