Evolution, creation or something else?

[Meshugger]

Creationism and it's supporters fail because they claim to use science without understanding the scientific method. The use of empirical data and reasoning is completely out of the window when someone tries to make theories that fit the contents a book written 2000 or so years ago. Creationists also seem to be confused between an idea, hypothesis and a scientific theory.

 

One doesn't have to be smart to understand why creationists and their supporters use this kind of pseudo-science for their agenda.

[seejai]

The Bible is not proof of creationism. It is an account of creationism based on conjecture and the understanding of the world and universe in the mindset of a primitive being who had no idea why it rained, why fire hurts, nor what causes him to get sick.

what i am trying to say is that if you have faith in God its obviously proof enough for you. im talking more about beliefs which we dont need to go into

 

. if you want proof for creation u'd have to read the bible with an open mind which i doubt most of you are willing to do so if you want proof, this is prolly the wrong topic

 

The bible offers proof of only one thing, and that is not of creation.

 

 

and i think you need to read alot of the bible to judge if it was written by men....

What if I told you I have read "a lot" of the bible?

 

in that case maybe i ment that u need faith but faith isnt a scientifical fact so that answer wont work for you

 

well since i know my point of view has been said and its not really making an impact and no offense but im not sure of the point of this topic bc i know we'll never really agree or anything but its been interesting sharing opinions with yall and i think you need to read alot of the bible to judge if it was written by men.... well with that said im going to go swim or something so have fun doing what ur doing

I've probably read more of the Bible than you have.

 

like i said, you need faith to believe it but I do and theres no doubt in my mind about it. even if i cant prove it to you. like i said, as much as we try, this is for the most part a proofless topic. and im not just saying oh read the bible bc jesus loves you! when i havnt my self. because i have read it and i think whats important is that you can find a "theory" or whateve you want to call it and believe that that is the truth. i have and i dont have to spend so much time on doubts

 

and i dont think all creationist fail to understand the scientific method. some do but then again im sure there are evolutionist that fail to understand. maybe creationist are blinded by there beliefs. but to say that all do is an absolute...

[Meshugger]

Creationism as an idea is a failure, since it relies on religious dogma, not compatible with empirical research. It should be thought of as a philosophy, not science.

[seejai]

ok...... explain the lack of transitional forms

[Deadly_Nightshade]

like i said, you need faith to believe it but I do and theres no doubt in my mind about it.

 

What you said is one of the things I hate the most about religion. It is a cop-out when you are backed in a corner. When someone provides evidence against your god, or your bible, you respond with the weathered expressions, "It is all according to god's will" or "you just need faith." I refuse to accept these as a rational explanations. Provide me with the tiniest piece of solid evidence; then I will give it some consideration. There is no way to back religion other than with unfounded ideology. Sure, scripture might have its usefulness, but in the end, its as real as Tolkien's Middle Earth, as imaginative as Ursula's Earthsea, and as fantastic as the Greek Myths.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

ok...... explain the lack of transitional forms

 

There is no "lack of transitional forms," that's simply a worthless argument used by fundies -like yourself- who don't know anything about the subject.

[seejai]

i wasnt giving it as evidence.... i was just saying that thats MY evidence

 

ok u should try to watch this video. it doesnt directly promote creationism but it shows really skeptical things about evolution. dont shut it down immediatly. i thought it was interesting. ok i predict that if anyone watches it they will say oh the bible thumper is making excuses. u dont have to say it i know ur thinking it. but its worth it to watch. if u are completely anti creationist, just listen to the facts on evolution and block the rest out.

 

http://www.multimediaapologetics.com/multi...tion_Video.html

Edited July 19, 2007 by seejai

[Deadly_Nightshade]

if u are completely anti creationist, just listen to the facts on evolution and block the rest out.

 

Oh yes, a movie found on the internet is going to overturn decades of scientific research!

[seejai]

ok lets pretend that dont i actually have an opinion about this and i just honestly want to know, where are the transitional fossils? i want to know bc if there actually are some maybe i should look at my beliefs.... and if theres not maybe you should look at your opinions. instead of an answer you just tell me im a fundie who knows nothing of the subject. would a simple answer be too much to ask. or must you just avoid one by saying stuff like that

Edited July 19, 2007 by seejai

[seejai]

if u are completely anti creationist, just listen to the facts on evolution and block the rest out.

 

Oh yes, a movie found on the internet is going to overturn decades of scientific research!

 

as are gaming nerds-like myself- on a forum on a website for a company that makes video games ....... now theres a place for good scientifical facts

Edited July 19, 2007 by seejai

[Meshugger]

ok...... explain the lack of transitional forms

 

Define "transitional forms". Monkeys to humans or....?

[seejai]

any skeletal form that in the process of evolving from one creature to another. something that you can actually see that the two are changing and not just magically turning into the other. well some sort of fossil that shows a stage like between the two creatures

[Meshugger]

Hoho, take any species of man from "Lucy" to Cro-magnon to Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

[Meshugger]

A nice guide about religion, atleast the first 2 minutes. But preferably the whole clip. And it is funny as well.

[seejai]

i believe something else about those...... which no i dont feel like explaing. but are there anyothers??? any ones that are of other species and more..... evidence like. ( if a few monkey to human fossils is all you've got dont bother..)

[seejai]

id watch it but i actually cant with this computer right now. trust me im not claiming religion.... i dont like religion

[Deadly_Nightshade]

ok lets pretend that dont i actually have an opinion about this and i just honestly want to know, where are the transitional fossils? i want to know bc if there actually are some maybe i should look at my beliefs....

 

I cannot tell you the name off the top of my head, but you can find them in any recent, and reputable, book about human evolution (e.g. The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Evolution). I don't believe that "Multimedia Apologetics," who admit to being a "ministry committed to providing free, apologetics, discipleship, and Christian education materials to the world" and "that the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be advanced in some small way through this ministry*" is a reliable source of information about evolution.

 

 

*Do these guys sound like the kind of people who would give evolution a fair hearing?

DOCTRINAL STATEMENT

 

1. We believe the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testament Scripture alone to be verbally inspired by God and inerrant in the original text, and that they alone are of supreme and final authority in faith and life.

 

 

2. We believe in one God who is Creator of heaven and earth, who is infinite Spirit, light, love, and truth; eternal, almighty, infallible in all things, including His foreknowledge of all future events as well as all free choices; that He is unchangeable, all wise, just, and holy; and that the triune God eternally exists in one essence and three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

3. We believe in the special creation of the entire space-time universe and of every basic form of life in accordance with the Genesis creation record. We also believe in the historicity of the biblical record, including the special creation of Adam and Eve as the literal progenitors of all people, the literal fall and resultant divine curse on the creation, the worldwide flood, and the origin of nations and diverse languages at the tower of Babel.

 

4. We believe in Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, the Eternal Word manifested in the flesh. We believe that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, and that He is true God and true man, having two distinct natures co-joined in one Person.

 

5. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died as a representative and substitutionary sacrifice for the sins of every human being and thus offers salvation as a free gift based on grace alone.

 

6. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ arose from the dead in the same physical body, though glorified, in which He had lived and died, and that His resurrection body is the pattern of that body which will be given to all believers at the return of Christ.

 

7. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into heaven in the same glorified physical body in which He arose, was seated at His Father's right hand, assuring us of the perfection of His work of redemption, and that He now, as Head over all things to the Church, is engaged on behalf of the saved as their only Advocate.

 

8. We believe in the personal, imminent, and premillennial return of the Lord Jesus Christ for His redeemed ones followed by His millennial reign on earth.

 

9. We believe that man was originally created in the image and likeness of God, and that he fell through sin; and that as a consequence of his sin, he became dead in trespasses and sins, and that he became subject to the power of the devil. We also believe that this spiritual death, or total depravity of human nature, has been transmitted to the entire human race, the Man Christ Jesus alone being excepted; and hence that every child of Adam is born into the world with a nature which is totally corrupt.

 

10. We believe that only those who receive the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior on the condition of faith alone, apart from all good works, are thereby born again of the Holy Spirit, are justified once and for all, and have become children of God.

 

11. We believe that the Holy Spirit, being the Third Person of the Godhead, convicts men of sin, regenerates, indwells, baptizes, seals, and sets believers apart to a holy life; that He keeps and empowers believers day by day. We believe that He is the Teacher of the Word of God through which He guides us in our daily lives.

 

12. We believe in the eternal security and everlasting blessedness of the saved, and the eternal conscious punishment of the lost.

 

13. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ instituted only two ordinances: water baptism and the Lord's Supper, to be observed until He comes. We believe that water baptism is not necessary for salvation but that it is an outward symbol of salvation and a sign of our obedience to Him.

 

14. We believe that the universal Church of Jesus Christ is composed of those who have been redeemed and washed in His blood, regenerated and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and that they are saved to worship and to serve; that it is the responsibility and privilege of all who are saved to seek to win others to Christ, to the "uttermost part of the earth"; that they should seek to live a holy life, to separate themselves from and forsake all that might dishonor God, cast discredit on His cause, or weaken their testimony.

 

15. We believe that there is a personal devil, a being of great cunning and power, who is "the prince and the power of the air," "the prince of this world," and "the god of this age." We believe that he can exert vast power but only as far as God permits him to do so; that he shall ultimately be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone and shall be tormented day and night forever.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

if u are completely anti creationist, just listen to the facts on evolution and block the rest out.

 

Oh yes, a movie found on the internet is going to overturn decades of scientific research!

 

as are gaming nerds-like myself- on a forum on a website for a company that makes video games ....... now theres a place for good scientifical facts

 

It's a better source than the bible.

 

any skeletal form that in the process of evolving from one creature to another. something that you can actually see that the two are changing and not just magically turning into the other. well some sort of fossil that shows a stage like between the two creatures

 

Yes, there are fossils like the ones you desire.

 

i believe something else about those...... which no i dont feel like explaing. but are there anyothers??? any ones that are of other species and more..... evidence like. ( if a few monkey to human fossils is all you've got dont bother..)

 

You could look at the evolution of the horse, as it is one of the best documented fossil lines available.

 

i dont like religion

 

I find that hard to believe ...

[seejai]

i refuse to read that bc i hate doctrine and religion. dont think im a person who is religious. im something else entirely. well they maybe not giving it a fair hearing but hey it seems mutual. since you wouldnt even look at it and i bet if you did like i said you cant just put the fact that its christian behind you and look at the scientific facts. u claim that creationist dont use facts and scientific method, well theres a creationist actually using facts and u shut it down before u can see it for urself

[Meshugger]

i believe something else about those...... which no i dont feel like explaing. but are there anyothers??? any ones that are of other species and more..... evidence like. ( if a few monkey to human fossils is all you've got dont bother..)

 

I was trying to be nice with you and give a short, basic example. If you require something else that just scratches the surface in terms of evolution, go to a library and read a book, like the one Deadly_nightshade said. Evolution isn't something that you can answer within short answers and one-liners.

[seejai]

you have no idea how different faith and religion are. religion is rules. and faith is... faith. personal. i dont seem to be getting anything i said read with any.... openmindness so once again i have 10,000 better things to do

[seejai]

i believe something else about those...... which no i dont feel like explaing. but are there anyothers??? any ones that are of other species and more..... evidence like. ( if a few monkey to human fossils is all you've got dont bother..)

 

I was trying to be nice with you and give a short, basic example. If you require something else that just scratches the surface in terms of evolution, go to a library and read a book, like the one Deadly_nightshade said. Evolution isn't something that you can answer within short answers and one-liners.

 

well thanks for at least answering instead of a lame insult....

[Meshugger]

i refuse to read that bc i hate doctrine and religion. dont think im a person who is religious. im something else entirely. well they maybe not giving it a fair hearing but hey it seems mutual. since you wouldnt even look at it and i bet if you did like i said you cant just put the fact that its christian behind you and look at the scientific facts. u claim that creationist dont use facts and scientific method, well theres a creationist actually using facts and u shut it down before u can see it for urself

 

Creationism USES RELIGION, PREFERABLY CHRISTIANITY AS ITS DOGMA when trying to prove that there's an invisible creator behind everything. They cherry-pick parts of science wherever it fits them. It's against the very philosophy that we call the scientific method.

[seejai]

oh yes... im afraid i just insulted an insult. a sign that this thread uh, is now void of any meaning (did it have any in the first place), yeah and i just mildly insulted the thread which by my standards means i should probably go sleep or something

[seejai]

i refuse to read that bc i hate doctrine and religion. dont think im a person who is religious. im something else entirely. well they maybe not giving it a fair hearing but hey it seems mutual. since you wouldnt even look at it and i bet if you did like i said you cant just put the fact that its christian behind you and look at the scientific facts. u claim that creationist dont use facts and scientific method, well theres a creationist actually using facts and u shut it down before u can see it for urself

 

Creationism USES RELIGION, PREFERABLY CHRISTIANITY AS ITS DOGMA when trying to prove that there's an invisible creator behind everything. They cherry-pick parts of science wherever it fits them. It's against the very philosophy that we call the scientific method.

 

i think creationism is based off the bible and i think ur confusing the bible for religion.