SiCKo by Micheal Moore

[Meshugger]

You know Taks, you have a point here. I've never met an engineer who was a liberal. They are all somewhere between libertarian or conservative. I wonder why? (Thats liberal/conservative of the american definition to all you euro folks who are thinking wtf?)

a) only doctors and lawyers have higher average salaries (considering traditional jobs, not rich stockbrokers or banking execs, etc.) and b) engineers are fueled by logic, not compassion. face it, socialist policies require compassion as they logically do not work. engineers also don't end up in liberal colleges, and if they do, the engineering sections are usually isolated from the rest of the campus (we tend to spend a lot more time drinking and studying than our liberal arts counterparts).

 

taks

 

Nu-uh!

 

I am an engineer (Information Technology), currently working at R&D at one of the biggest mobile phone manufactures in the world. Great salary as well. Oh, since private health care is perfectly legal and running alongside public health care here in Finland, we have our own (outsorced) internal health care, they just bill the government instead of us, yay!

 

As for my studying-environment, it was mostly a-political, not really right or left. Most of our professors didn't care about politics as long as they were allowed to research and build stuff. But we did like to drink, yes we did. Several of us got their greatest ideas from being at a drunken stage As for politics at where i work, we are usually socially liberal and economically (fiscally?) conservative by american definitions.

 

As for completely making insurance companies de-regulated as in a free-market (which will never exist), that doesn't take away the very notion that those who provide you money when you are sick, are really companies looking for profit for their shareholders, is again conflict of interest when it's your health we're talking about. But the US is the US, and it will probably find a solution that makes it better (hint-hint, the middle-of-the-road is usually better for a general solution) for all americans.

 

Finally, don't apply ice-cold, vulcan logic when dealing with irrational humans, it will not work

[WITHTEETH]

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/8/4/37504406.pdf

 

I thought this was interesting. Tax income only accounts for 25% of US's GDP.

GDP is not what the government makes. GDP is what the entire country makes, private industry included. it's actually more like 20% since our current GDP is $13T and tax revenues are $2.4T. the US _can_ afford health care, and we are already paying for it. the question is whether or not the government can, and the answer is no, at least not with out resorting to even more socialism.

 

taks

Democrats have the house and Congress, its only a matter of time till they have the white house for 8 years.

 

Universal health care might actually come, logically its possible.

[theslug]

Good post Rosbjerg, I agree. Even though he definitely wrote that check to create sympathy and improve his image the fact is he still wrote the check that ultimately got that woman professional help that probably saved her life.

 

So what exactly did we decide so far? Like I've been saying from the begining the Gov sucks, seems everyone else agrees with that assumption. I guess I agree that the government for the most part should stay out of the formula except to make sure some blatant bs isn't going on. I think we can also agree that all these insurance corporation ceo's should fall out of a building with there multi million dollar bonuses and miraculously survive but then get gnawed on to death by homeless people and wild animals for sustenance. And I think we can also agree that people need to be more proactive about there health and instead of just taking a pill they should eat a balanced diet and do exercise. And finally we can all agree that sand belongs with the new age /b/tards who really do freakin suck becuase they ruined 4chan, gawd i hate them. And taks is a godless heathen of a man.

[WITHTEETH]

Its bull **** that I'm helping pay for some guy on welfare to have free health care with my tax dollars, yet I cannot afford it myself. I work 40 hours a week and I can barely afford to pay my rent. Yet Tweedle de and dum and their 5 children get free health care because he procreates.

 

Not to mention all my tax dollars I've paid that goes to my government health insurance for its employees.

 

Thats right, I'm one of the 20% without it, yet still pay taxes, and I pay for my own college tuition(part time). "how uniquely American!" Wow this guy is a go getter right? Well I'm tired, and worn out, I don't get any kind of benefits, and If something physically happens to me, Ill get kicked out of my apartment, and have a medical care bill the size of George Bush's fat wallet complements from the HMO's.

 

If the government can't help me get health care, and society doesn't give a care unless i have the money, then what is a young man suppose to do? Who cares though, i just want it because it would benefit me, thats human nature, selfishness. I'm so selfish because i want my health.

[Guard Dog]

Its bull **** that I'm helping pay for some guy on welfare to have free health care with my tax dollars, yet I cannot afford it myself. I work 40 hours a week and I can barely afford to pay my rent. Yet Tweedle de and dum and their 5 children get free health care because he procreates.

 

Not to mention all my tax dollars I've paid that goes to my government health insurance for its employees.

 

Thats right, I'm one of the 20% without it, yet still pay taxes, and I pay for my own college tuition(part time). "how uniquely American!" Wow this guy is a go getter right? Well I'm tired, and worn out, I don't get any kind of benefits, and If something physically happens to me, Ill get kicked out of my apartment, and have a medical care bill the size of George Bush's fat wallet complements from the HMO's.

 

If the government can't help me get health care, and society doesn't give a care unless i have the money, then what is a young man suppose to do? Who cares though, i just want it because it would benefit me, thats human nature, selfishness. I'm so selfish because i want my health.

WTF? The government created the mess you are complaining about, and your solution is for the government to take the whole thing over?

 

@theslug on your last post

[taks]

I am an engineer (Information Technology), currently working at R&D at one of the biggest mobile phone manufactures in the world. Great salary as well.

i've worked with some fine finlandian engineers in my time. in fact, one that i correspond with on occasion is a researcher/professor type at the university of helsinki. i have a book by aapo hyvarinen as well, a god among component analysis types (my opinion, of course).

 

As for my studying-environment, it was mostly a-political, not really right or left. Most of our professors didn't care about politics as long as they were allowed to research and build stuff. But we did like to drink, yes we did. Several of us got their greatest ideas from being at a drunken stage

ditto at the university of missouri-rolla. we did make fun of the college republicans (a group called that), however, as most of us couldn't have cared less about politics at the time.

 

As for politics at where i work, we are usually socially liberal and economically (fiscally?) conservative by american definitions.

ditto here as well.

 

(hint-hint, the middle-of-the-road is usually better for a general solution)

personally, i think compromise actually one of the downfalls of democracy. the result is something that doesn't work well, and nobody is really happy. IMO, the "best" solution involves pissing off half of the people since they don't agree. such outcomes are next to impossible in reality, however.

 

Finally, don't apply ice-cold, vulcan logic when dealing with irrational humans, it will not work

i am unable to do otherwise, but i understand your point.

 

taks

[taks]

And taks is a godless heathen of a man.

i am godless, and you certainly are the very FIRST poster in here to recognize that. i don't know how many times i get called a right-wing fanatic in spite of my mostly liberal positions (albeit not many that i discuss in here).

 

taks

[WITHTEETH]

WTF? The government created the mess you are complaining about, and your solution is for the government to take the whole thing over?

You look at the government as something detached from society. The government is the people of the United states, we have the vote!!! Governed FOR the PEOPLE, BY the PEOPLE!

 

Government has the capacity to do good for its people just as it does bad. I see you've already lost hope in government and democracy though so why i waste my time with you in this discussion is beyond me. But if you think the government only screw things up, and the the human condition can't get better your wrong i believe. Along with the many bad things our government has done we have also made libraries, schools, have donated tons of money and supplies to help human suffering from around the world, have funded science to help cure diseases and other conditions. Its helped the independent woman, slavery has been abolished in the US. I could go on and on.

[taks]

But if you think the government only screw things up, and the the human condition can't get better your wrong i believe.

it's not that the government only screws things up, its that government was not ever intended to solve all of society's ills. when it tinkers in things that it was not intended to cure, it will ultimately fail, making the problems worse. health care is one of those areas it has undoubtedly made worse.

 

certainly a government's task is made easier with a much smaller population base to govern. opinions are far less divided for one thing. i had more to say on this... but my brain is otherwise occupied at the moment.

 

taks

[Guard Dog]

I see you've already lost hope in government and democracy though

 

Not at all. We are talking about the FEDERAL Government here. The US Constitution spells out exactly what the role of the FEDERAL Government is. It places limits on it's scope and power. And it angers and frightens me when it over steps those limits with seeming impunity. And even worse when I hear intelligent people like you actually demanding that it overstep it's power to do something the Constitution expressly forbids it to do. If the Federal Government is not held to the Constitution then there is no law and none of us are safe from it. If a STATE Government wanted to provide health care for it's citizens then I would have no problem at all with it. But the words "health care" do not appear in the US Constitution

 

 

But if you think the government only screw things up, and the the human condition can't get better your wrong i believe. Along with the many bad things our government has done we have also made libraries, schools, have donated tons of money and supplies to help human suffering from around the world, have funded science to help cure diseases and other conditions. Its helped the independent woman, slavery has been abolished in the US. I could go on and on.

 

I believe the human condition can and will get better. But you seem to think that can only happen at the aid and direction of government. I disagree. Most of the examples you name are things that are bought, built and administrated by State and Municipal governments. Libraries, Universities, schools, most parks, etc are built funded and run with NO Federal money or oversight. There are some things the Federal Government does do well. Most of them are responsibilities that Constitution specifically defines for them such as trade administration, National Defense and security, administration and management of natural resources, etc.

 

You look at the government as something detached from society. The government is the people of the United states, we have the vote!!! Governed FOR the PEOPLE, BY the PEOPLE!

 

Actually here is a little personal info on me. When I got out of the military I got into politics. First in the Florida Republican Party, then the Libertarian Party. I was a campaign adviser for Don Garlits in his Congressional campaign for US House district 5 in 1994. Then I actually ran for the Florida State House in 1996 (that did not go so well). So I can tell you for a FACT it is detached from the average citizen. To such a point it will really make you angry if you dwell on it. I went back to college after the debacle in 1996 and got a real job.

[WITHTEETH]

No i don't think the goverment is the only thing that can help the human condition. Heck even dishwashers have helped that!

[Calax]

I see you've already lost hope in government and democracy though

 

Not at all. We are talking about the FEDERAL Government here. The US Constitution spells out exactly what the role of the FEDERAL Government is. It places limits on it's scope and power. And it angers and frightens me when it over steps those limits with seeming impunity. And even worse when I hear intelligent people like you actually demanding that it overstep it's power to do something the Constitution expressly forbids it to do. If the Federal Government is not held to the Constitution then there is no law and none of us are safe from it. If a STATE Government wanted to provide health care for it's citizens then I would have no problem at all with it. But the words "health care" do not appear in the US Constitution

 

 

I had to laugh at that statement... I thought part of the governments "do not do" list was outright lying to the populace for political gain (or a license to go to war)

[taks]

I had to laugh at that statement... I thought part of the governments "do not do" list was outright lying to the populace for political gain (or a license to go to war)

which has absolutely nothing to do with this thread and is nothing more than your sorry-ass trying to be cute making an otherwise ill-informed, nonsensical, political statement.

 

i tried to be reasonable with you earlier but your obvious adherence to dogma and ideology gets scorn instead.

 

a) educate yourself. b) shut up in the mean-time.

 

taks

[Tale]

Guys, all this arguing is exactly what the space aliens want.

[Sand]

Not at all. We are talking about the FEDERAL Government here. The US Constitution spells out exactly what the role of the FEDERAL Government is. It places limits on it's scope and power. And it angers and frightens me when it over steps those limits with seeming impunity. And even worse when I hear intelligent people like you actually demanding that it overstep it's power to do something the Constitution expressly forbids it to do. If the Federal Government is not held to the Constitution then there is no law and none of us are safe from it. If a STATE Government wanted to provide health care for it's citizens then I would have no problem at all with it. But the words "health care" do not appear in the US Constitution

 

Then maybe its time to toss out the old Constitution and replace it something "more perfect."

[Tale]

Not at all. We are talking about the FEDERAL Government here. The US Constitution spells out exactly what the role of the FEDERAL Government is. It places limits on it's scope and power. And it angers and frightens me when it over steps those limits with seeming impunity. And even worse when I hear intelligent people like you actually demanding that it overstep it's power to do something the Constitution expressly forbids it to do. If the Federal Government is not held to the Constitution then there is no law and none of us are safe from it. If a STATE Government wanted to provide health care for it's citizens then I would have no problem at all with it. But the words "health care" do not appear in the US Constitution

 

Then maybe its time to toss out the old Constitution and replace it something "more perfect."

Something that gives it less power instead of more? That would be "more perfect."

[Pop]

Much as I detest Moore's previous polemics, there isn't a lot of room for him to overstep his bounds here. No foreigner, no matter how conservative, would wish to switch their health system with ours, because ours really, really ****ing sucks. Free market medicine just doesn't work.

[Calax]

I had to laugh at that statement... I thought part of the governments "do not do" list was outright lying to the populace for political gain (or a license to go to war)

which has absolutely nothing to do with this thread and is nothing more than your sorry-ass trying to be cute making an otherwise ill-informed, nonsensical, political statement.

 

i tried to be reasonable with you earlier but your obvious adherence to dogma and ideology gets scorn instead.

 

a) educate yourself. b) shut up in the mean-time.

 

taks

I would hardly consider calling somebody an idiot "reasonable"

 

and could you tell me where lying to get into a war is a good thing? and no, super secret societies don't count.

 

and if you consider any view other than your own to be ill-informed you should probably make the ostrich your personal mascot

 

As to healthcare I'd prefer it if we went to a more government based system as it seems like the current system is just a horrible about how to deal with patients. I almost don't have insurance. Almost only because I work part time at gamestop (who's so afraid of it's workers unionizing that they are willing to give us at least a itty bitty bit of insurance) If I didn't I'd be ineligible for unemployment and I wouldn't be able to get Medical, Medi-cade or anything like that because my FAMILY has enough money to cover most things. while my family would post my medical bills I think there are at least a few people who's parents wouldn't but the fact the parents had money would still render the poor guy unable to attain state sponsored health benefits.

[Guard Dog]

Much as I detest Moore's previous polemics, there isn't a lot of room for him to overstep his bounds here. No foreigner, no matter how conservative, would wish to switch their health system with ours, because ours really, really ****ing sucks. Free market medicine just doesn't work.

Did you not read the examples I posted? Anyway, you cannot really say free market medicine does not work because you have not seen it applied in the modern era. What we have now could not be called free market by any means.

 

Anyway, this has been an enjoyable thread but there is little more I can say without becoming repetitive (or more so). As I posted earlier, most of you are leaning more to wards socialism and are so indoctrinated to the idea you refuse to even consider an alternative. Even when confronted with the realities of creating such a system in the US. And thats fine, not everybody agrees on everything. It is not the Federal Governments job to provide you with health care, but many of you feel it is and damn the problems and costs that arise from it. I'm certain it will come up again, possible after the next election cycle if the dems win the white house. Hopefully it will be defeated again.

Edited June 29, 2007 by Guard Dog

[Pop]

With all due respect, the very last source of information I would seek regarding the efficacy and value of the free market is a libertarian. That'd be like consulting Fidel Castro while researching the value of socialism. They both place high rhetoric over history when it comes to their respective idealpolitiks. I get mighty suspicious when I see the 30+ countries with better healthcare than America and I'm told that what works there cannot work here, or even that being worse is preferable, because the taxes aren't justifiable or whatever it is that people want to argue. It's a poor excuse, and the industry of medicine should be concerned with healthcare over profits, and the only way to make that work is to take the onus of care away from entrepeneurs and businessmen and into the hands of the people who should be benefiting, the taxpayer. I would much rather have a European socialist (yes, I said it, don't have an aneurysm) system with a weak capitalist safety net than an American capitalist system with a weak socialist safety net.

 

That isn't to say that I've completely discounted the idea of capitalism as a solution to the crisis, I just don't see it as acceptable. Making medicine for-profit would leave the healthcare situation largely as it is, since there's really no reason to treat people who can't pay (ie the 40 million Americans without insurance) short of some kind of government-provided incentive, and I actually think that everyone has a right to healthcare regardless of their financial situation, and that just doesn't jibe with rugged individualism or whatever it is they're renaming social darwinism these days.

Edited June 29, 2007 by Pop

[Spider]

the US _can_ afford health care, and we are already paying for it.

 

Through your teeth even. As I posted earlier, the cost for US healthcare is about 50% higher than most other western countries (On a % of GDP basis).

 

Not only that, it is also currently worse than most other western countries. There are no more doctors per citizen (although there are more hospital beds), the childrens mortality rate is higher than in other western countries and life expectancy is lower. (all statistics commonly used in economics to measure life quality in a given country, among other factors)

 

This is not to slant the private system, but as it currently works something is clearly wrong. I suppose it's the hybride thing. Either have it fully private or fully government sponsored. But, from what I understand of taks posts, the current mix is clearly not optimal and quite far from it even.

 

I personally don't like the idea of a fully private healthcare system, but since I don't live in the US I don't really care if they go that route as long as Sweden doesn't.

[Pop]

It's funny that there are as many hospital beds as there are people in the US, because it's damned hard to stay in one compared to 20 years ago. My mom tells me wondrous stories of overnight hospital stays for outpatient surgery. These days they send mothers home the day of birth.

[Rosbjerg]

As I posted earlier, most of you are leaning more to wards socialism and are so indoctrinated to the idea you refuse to even consider an alternative. Even when confronted with the realities of creating such a system in the US.

 

couldn't the same be said about anyone who's left wing? people are not 'indoctrinated' because they don't agree with you - they may just have a fundamentally different view of things - although I know the feeling, when you know something to be 'right' and everyone disagrees .. I considered moving to America once, but it was your health system that made me change my mind. I would rather pay 50% taxes and then have the certainty that, no matter what happens, I'm fully covered.

 

But as Taks shortly brushed on, I do believe your country is actually too big to support such a system effectively - but I hope you find one that suits your needs better - it was very sad to see people being dumped off by a cab, after being refused help, or policies being revoked - because insurance companies wouldn't cover expenses. I don't think I could work as a doctor in a place were you had to refuse help to someone who really needed it and might die, just because they couldn't afford it - even if it should only happens once every 5 years.

[WITHTEETH]

I had to laugh at that statement... I thought part of the governments "do not do" list was outright lying to the populace for political gain (or a license to go to war)

which has absolutely nothing to do with this thread and is nothing more than your sorry-ass trying to be cute making an otherwise ill-informed, nonsensical, political statement.

 

i tried to be reasonable with you earlier but your obvious adherence to dogma and ideology gets scorn instead.

 

a) educate yourself. b) shut up in the mean-time.

 

taks

Taks try to share ideas, not hate.

[Guard Dog]

As I posted earlier, most of you are leaning more to wards socialism and are so indoctrinated to the idea you refuse to even consider an alternative. Even when confronted with the realities of creating such a system in the US.

 

couldn't the same be said about anyone who's left wing? people are not 'indoctrinated' because they don't agree with you - they may just have a fundamentally different view of things - although I know the feeling, when you know something to be 'right' and everyone disagrees

Fair point Ros. That was a poor choice of wording. "Enamored" would probably be better.