Please tell me I'm not the only one...

[Llyranor]

There are only two categories of games - good games and bad games. Any further classification is superficial crap.

[Tale]

There are only two categories of games - good games and bad games. Any further classification is superficial crap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishing

[taks]

Otherwise, you're saying D&D was not originally a roleplaying game.

 

No, you're spot on with your original line. At least according to what Gary Gygax have said in interviews.

spider's correct. GG's original concept was a miniature war-gaming thing that evolved into D&D. everything i've read about what he (GG) likes about D&D revolves around dungeon crawling. old-skool modules, particularly those that GG wrote, are mostly centered around some sort of dungeon crawl.

 

taks

[Tale]

In other words, D&D was not originally a RPG, but evolved into an RPG later. And arguably only for some. Okay, so what?

 

I know Spider said he was arguing with my origin of the term roleplay. However, he never specified that D&D was an RPG or what made it an RPG at this time. It is popularly known as an RPG now. It is popularly used for actual roleplaying now, as well.

 

It was originally a wargame. Then after that it was a fantasy tactics game. Eventually it became a roleplaying game and had roleplaying. People got together for fantasy tactics games to bash monsters. They got together for roleplaying games to roleplay. At some point people got together for the same game for two different reasons, played it two different ways, but said how they were playing was the same way. And hence the need for classification.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Tale

[Spider]

If we're elevating the discussion to a scientific level that may very well change.

Why can't we?

 

We can. But the question is whether there is any point? Genre classifications of computer games is still a means of consumer information. So in order to affect change, it's what the consumers expect from a term that needs to be changed. A group of people defining criteria won't change anything unless the casual gamer can relate to what they're deciding.

 

But changing the casual player's definition (and it's the casual player that is mostly helped by it) will be an almost insurmountable task.

I don't see why it would be.

 

Then this is where we differ in opinion. I just think that changing the definition of a term that has been cemented through years and years of usage is going to be difficult. If changing it is at all desireable. If we're taking the scientific approach, it makes more sense to me to analyze what currently goes into the current common definition of the word and build criteria around that. Arbitrarily deciding what should and shouldn't be a RPG serves no real purpose to me.

 

I know Spider said he was arguing with my origin of the term roleplay. However, he never specified that D&D was an RPG or what made it an RPG at this time. It is popularly known as an RPG now. It is popularly used for actual roleplaying now, as well.

 

I thought it was widely known that D&D is considered to be the first roleplaying game. It gave birth to the entire genre, but when it did it wasn't about acting, just monster bashing. So when the term roleplaying was coined, all there was was dungeon crawling. Hence, the origin of the term RPG has very little to do with dramatic acting and everything to do with number crunching and kicking in heads.

[Tale]

D&D was the first roleplaying game in that it was the first codified (I use this word, possibly improperly, to specify it had rules) game. Kids have been roleplaying cops & robbers, cowboys & indians for ages. But that doesn't mean D&D was always a roleplaying game. Being the first something doesn't mean you were always something.

 

A roleplaying game, especially in an open environment like PnP, literally by definition includes roleplaying.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Tale

[Wistrik]

The measure I use is whether a game provides the feeling that *I* am in the game world, not some pre-defined personality controlled by me.

I find that an interesting definition, at least by how I'm reading it, because I feel that way about all games that have a 'character' I'm playing - assuming I like the game enough to keep playing it. My character always becomes "me." I'm not role-playing that I'm someone else, with a different mental mindset, I'm just sucked into the illusion that I'm in the world of the game - with cool super-fantasy powers, but never mind that - and thus it makes me care about what happens in it.

I think you understood it the way I meant it to be. Some games I can really get into, others no chance, though they might still be fun. The games I can get in to typically cause me to lose track of time and everything else. It's not always a CRPG that draws me in.

[Spider]

D&D was the first roleplaying game in that it was the first codified (I use this word, possibly improperly, to specify it had rules) game. Kids have been roleplaying cops & robbers, cowboys & indians for ages. But that doesn't mean D&D was always a roleplaying game. Being the first something doesn't mean you were always something.

 

A roleplaying game, especially in an open environment like PnP, literally by definition includes roleplaying.

 

Yeah, they just may use a different definition of roleplaying you do. And still, the phrase roleplaying game comes from D&D and that makes how the game looked relevant when we're discussing the origin of the terminology. But we're starting to discuss semantics on a level that is starting to get slightly absurd here, so this will be my final post on that specific issue. Feel free to add your final thoughts though.

[Tale]

D&D was the first roleplaying game in that it was the first codified (I use this word, possibly improperly, to specify it had rules) game. Kids have been roleplaying cops & robbers, cowboys & indians for ages. But that doesn't mean D&D was always a roleplaying game. Being the first something doesn't mean you were always something.

 

A roleplaying game, especially in an open environment like PnP, literally by definition includes roleplaying.

 

Yeah, they just may use a different definition of roleplaying you do. And still, the phrase roleplaying game comes from D&D and that makes how the game looked relevant when we're discussing the origin of the terminology. But we're starting to discuss semantics on a level that is starting to get slightly absurd here, so this will be my final post on that specific issue. Feel free to add your final thoughts though.

Except the phrase roleplaying does not come from D&D. That's all I can have for a final thought on it.

 

Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/roleplay) cites the word as originating between 1945 and 1950. Two and a half to nearly three decades before D&D was first published. When Gary Gygax was between seven and twelve.

 

Edit: With all this talk about Gary Gynax. What about Dave Arneson? He did historical role-playing in college. Gynax was the wargamer, Arneson was the roleplayer.

Edited June 20, 2007 by Tale

[Sand]

Tale, your avatar looks like she is wearing pants on the back of her head.

[metadigital]

Was that meant to be a Ralph Wiggunism?