Lord of the Rings Online

[Tale]

I wonder if MMOs will ever solve the PvP thieving dilemma. (I.e. PCs with thieving skills want to steal stuff from other players, but non-Thief players become apoplectic when their PC has their Item of

[metadigital]

That solves it, but not satisfactorily.

 

After all, what's the point of being a thief if you can't steal stuff of people (that includes other PCs).

 

What stops people from thieving IRL? Deterrent. If the fighter could outrun a thief, and then knock them into next week, then the thief is going to be very careful who they target ... thieves would be seen hanging around lower level areas, in packs ... but then a good system of law with a great reputation system (and NPC lawkeepers?) would help manage this ...

[Tale]

That solves it, but not satisfactorily.

 

After all, what's the point of being a thief if you can't steal stuff of people (that includes other PCs).

 

What stops people from thieving IRL? Deterrent. If the fighter could outrun a thief, and then knock them into next week, then the thief is going to be very careful who they target ... thieves would be seen hanging around lower level areas, in packs ... but then a good system of law with a great reputation system (and NPC lawkeepers?) would help manage this ...

 

The point of most MMOs isn't to imitate real world systems. The point of a thief can come from something other than thieving. Hence why many of them are called Rogues instead. If MMOs ever really tried to imitate real world systems they would ultimately become as boring as real life. Any law system is ultimately easy to exploit by characters that have nothing to lose. The more everyone has to lose to try to overcompensate for this, the less people become interested in risking, even those not interested in exploitation.

 

The simply solution? Don't overcomplicate the game just for the purpose of pickpocket style thieving.

Edited May 13, 2007 by Tale

[Cantousent]

"That solves it, but not satisfactorily."

 

Correction:

 

"That solves it, but not satisfactorily [for meta]."

 

Sure, there is undoubtedly a sizeable group of players who would love to have a thief fest. If there's some inane wiki reference to it, I'm sure you'll find it. The fact remains that it's not worth the trouble.

 

I especially like how you've watered the "IRL" way to handle thieves: Deterrent. Good Lord, meta, what the hell?

 

In these games, the gear you have is vital. You have the best sword you can find because it can save your sorry backside in a pinch. You've got the best breastplate because it's going to see you through that instance. In real life, if someone steals one of my shirts or a case of coke from the trunk of my car, it won't really matter. Sure, I'll be angry, but that shirt isn't the difference between living through my next fight with a dragon and that soda isn't a quest item to save a village of hobbits. "IRL" someone can't steal my pacemaker unless they slice open my chest and kill me in the process.

 

Then there's that "deterrent" idea. Are we going to transform the game into gangland turf wars? That's fine if the primary goal of the game is to create such an atmosphere, cause that's what we're going to get. "IRL" we have a justice system that encompasses everything from police to prison guards to probation officers to defendants and prosecutors to judges and to juries. Are we going to have such a system in your "IRL" game? How about this, your thief gets caught picking pockets and he gets to spend six months in jail with a 1,000s fine? Hey, it'll be boring, but maybe the prison will be its own mini game. Can your uber thief manage to keep his manly chastity, or will he succumb to the wiles of his cell-mate, "Bubba?"

 

Finally, my meta digital friend, what MMORPG do you play that you think would be improved by the system you describe? I mean, are you thinking more of introducing this system into LotRO or WoW? How

[tripleRRR]

I was not specifically referring to the quests, but the traits and such in the deeds system. To earn the title "Fly Swatter" you have to kill 30 of these misquito things in the swamp. After that is finished you can kill 60 of them to earn a trait that enhances some aspect of your character, and then there is an advanced level you can have access to if you kill 120 or so of these bugs.

 

Very annoying way to customize your character in my opinion. Though I could live with it if the combat system wasn't so...slow. Too many long cooldowns on my abilities. Though I did only reach lvl 15 so there is probably much more to do when you hit cap.

 

So you were going out of your way to grind for these traits and deeds? That does seem boring. I don't know why you would do that when you could naturally progress your character and simply accept the titles and traits that your adventures led to.

 

The combat is rather slow, although it depends on your class. It's also a low magic world, so rather than spells, you rely mostly on combination fighting moves. I'm enjoying it, but it's another aspect that is very similiar to other MMO's.

 

Well I was playing during open beta, if you couldn't get a group for the downs then there really wasn't much else to do.

[Hurlshort]

The closest thing to a good thieving system I have seen has been in a NWN PW with permadeath and PvP. Sure, you could pickpocket, break into houses, and backstab people for their gear. But in a permadeath world, you were ultra careful about what you targeted, and rogues aren't exactly buff fighters in D&D.

 

One time I chanced upon a Drow in the woods. He was hunting a bear, and asked for my help. I was a bit creeped out, because we all know that drow are evil. But I said ok since I figured he'd stab me if I didn't help. He went up to the bear and started attacking (which was terrible tactically.) He got mauled pretty bad and was knocked to the ground bleeding. I set a trap and let the bear come to me, killing him. Then I went up to the drow, finished him off, and looted the body. That was good thieving.

Edited May 13, 2007 by Hurlshot

[metadigital]

"That solves it, but not satisfactorily."

 

Correction:

 

"That solves it, but not satisfactorily [for meta]."

 

Sure, there is undoubtedly a sizeable group of players who would love to have a thief fest. If there's some inane wiki reference to it, I'm sure you'll find it. The fact remains that it's not worth the trouble.

Meow!

 

Actually, I don't mind either way, I was making a philosophical point.

I especially like how you've watered the "IRL" way to handle thieves: Deterrent. Good Lord, meta, what the hell?

 

In these games, the gear you have is vital. You have the best sword you can find because it can save your sorry backside in a pinch. You've got the best breastplate because it's going to see you through that instance. In real life, if someone steals one of my shirts or a case of coke from the trunk of my car, it won't really matter. Sure, I'll be angry, but that shirt isn't the difference between living through my next fight with a dragon and that soda isn't a quest item to save a village of hobbits. "IRL" someone can't steal my pacemaker unless they slice open my chest and kill me in the process.

Firstly, the difference between a plus two sword and a plus three mace is almost negligible. Sure, I hanker after the shiniest gear like everyone else (well, except perhaps the most hardened "low magic" purists), but the amount of magic equipment my DnD characters accumulate after a typical dungeon crawl I probably wouldn't even notice if a thief stole a few of them.

 

Secondly, I'd like to see a thief steal a cuirass off the person it is strapped front and back to ..! For it to work, PCs would need to have realistic encumbrance (if only to assist with the run-away and chase scenario), and there would need to be a realistic correlation of item theft. In other words, stealing boots off a player standing IN them would be almost impossible (though it would be different if the victim was asleep), whereas stealing a purse would be very simple. Stealing a magic, glowing sword (especially of Anime-proportions!) would be pretty difficult ... and ESPECIALLY if the item was a particular favourite of the player (so there could be personal modifiers, too, in this example).

Then there's that "deterrent" idea. Are we going to transform the game into gangland turf wars? That's fine if the primary goal of the game is to create such an atmosphere, cause that's what we're going to get. "IRL" we have a justice system that encompasses everything from police to prison guards to probation officers to defendants and prosecutors to judges and to juries. Are we going to have such a system in your "IRL" game? How about this, your thief gets caught picking pockets and he gets to spend six months in jail with a 1,000s fine? Hey, it'll be boring, but maybe the prison will be its own mini game. Can your uber thief manage to keep his manly chastity, or will he succumb to the wiles of his cell-mate, "Bubba?"

Morrowind has (and the Ultimas had, for that matter) a workable penal system. Certainly petty larceny would be a fine, murder would be jailtime (thief trying to bribe / escape from jail would be an interesting, variable instance side-quest).

 

And don't tell me all those Paladins aren't game to be telling other players how to behave ...

Finally, my meta digital friend, what MMORPG do you play that you think would be improved by the system you describe? I mean, are you thinking more of introducing this system into LotRO or WoW? How

[Cantousent]

I am kitty, hear me roar!

 

My meta friend, you must understand that you're working a system for the purpose of including PvP. That's fine. There's probably a consumer base for it. (okay, okay, I was overboard with the wiki statement. :Cant's rueful grin icon:)

 

Anyhow, I've actually been thinking over this issue while dining with my inlaws. I think a system made with thieving PvP as one of the foundations could work. It's simply not a casual item for the game design. If it's part and parcel of the overarching vision, and the players has ample warning of that vision, then no one has the right to complain about it. Either play or don't.

[Fenghuang]

I still want a GTA MMO.

 

You know an MMO I would play the **** out of?

 

A GTA MMO. Something like that has the potential to be totally sweet and awesome. Make it bigger with more story and factions than any of the GTAs yet, make it more like an RPG in that if you piss of one faction by working for another you can't get back in their good graces, and allow users to 'modify' the world. You could even give users the ability to create missions for other users once they'd moved up in the ranks sufficiently without too much difficulty considering most missions are actually pretty formulaic despite being insanely fun.

 

That would be a game I could lose my life to. As it is the WoD MMO in development scares me considering it's by the creators of EVE.

[Arclam]

Is there anyone still playing this? People are trying to convince me to get this and I am very hesitant about it. I find that MMO's stop being any fun after so long. How does this hold up to playing over the months?

[Hurlshort]

Is there anyone still playing this? People are trying to convince me to get this and I am very hesitant about it. I find that MMO's stop being any fun after so long. How does this hold up to playing over the months?

 

It's the best WoW clone on the market. Take that as you will, for some it's positive, some it's negative.