The Lost Tomb of Jesus...

[Sand]

Nice speel, Blank, and though that is one interpretations, with some thought behind it mind you, I really don't care to be saved.

 

I am what I am, and I will live my life as I deem fit. If that saves me in the eyes of God, so be it. If not, oh well. However I will never worship a God who uses eternal torture as a punishment for those who do not follow him. No sin is terrible enough for that to be just and good. Also I don't see how punishing someone else for my actions as just or good either. If I do the crime then I am the one to be punished. I take responsibility for my actions.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Sand

[Xard]

Wow, awesome post Blank, although I hate it. Here I was, feeling myself omnipotent and undefeatable in religious arguments and then you blew my dreams away :sad:

 

I was seriously waiting for another debate with hc-christians who take eveything from Bible literally. Just guess how awesome weapon that "only 144,000 from you will be saved" would've been. Gah...

 

I guess I'm going to be "saved" since I consider myself as a christian after all.

[Sand]

Yes, but are you truly doing it to repent, or are you doing it so that you won't be accountable for your sins and avoid spending all of eternity being tortured?

[Xard]

I really don't care if I'm saved or not to be honest so I'm definetly not "doing it" to save myself from eternal torture.

 

My religious/philosophical views are not very easy to shape into words, although I might want to do that if this becomes good religious "debate" (read= flaming) topic.

 

To put it short I've been christian, atheist, agnostic and then again christian like originally. And I don't think my religious standing is going to change anymore

[Sand]

I started as an Christian then became what I have now. Its not Atheism, it is definitely not Christianity. I think it is a Cynicistic Nostic.

 

Um... Something like that.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Sand

[Guard Dog]

Faith is a funny thing. I believe everything that Blank said, and I believe everything I wrote in post 32. And they do contradict each other, but not to me. That is why I avoid religious discussions because I prefer rational arguments that are based on provable facts. And when the subject is religion those are few. It's why they call it faith. I believe Jesus was divine, and do not believe any evidence to the contrary. But at the same time, I cannot fault anyone who has a different view, and it is not my place to tell them they are facing eternal torment if they do not believe as I do. Because I do not KNOW that. No one but God can make that call. Christianity is unique among religions, because you cannot be born into it. You must choose to follow it. Even Jesus himself said so. And when you give people a choice, sometimes they will choose another way. That is free will.

 

I do not like cramming my faith down someone else's throat because it really is not my place to do so. The bible charges us to spread the word, but it it has been heard and rejected then there is nothing you can or should do. I seriously doubt that there is anyone on this board who has not been exposed to the Christian faith. If they have chosen not to follow, then they should not be badgered for it.

 

However, the reverse in not true it seems. Posters who profess Christian faith here are often insulted, taunted, treated with derision. Calax, Lucius, Withteeth and even Sand have done that. I do not ever remember anyone being treated so for NOT being Christian. Sometimes I get the sense that a lack of religion IS a religion. And it is an intolerant one at that.

[Sand]

I'm trying to be not as intolerant as I have been in the past but sometimes it just irks me how some very intelligent people, such as yourself Guard Dog as well as Dark Moth and Blank for example, on this board place faith and what I consider backwards thinking higher than rational thought and scientific/technological progress. It irks me to no end. Grrrr...

Edited March 22, 2007 by Sand

[Atreides]

Most of the intelligent people I've met are religious, whether they're Buddhist or Christians. I haven't really met the hardcore asshat Christians out there, which others like to think gives them the right to to be asshats to other Christians.

[Tale]

Even if it wasn't true, which I assure you it is, what would be wrong with believing it for now and accepting Christ?

Elohim, Allah, Haile Selassie, Shiva, Zeus, Jupiter, the goddess, Gud, Shang Ti, Shen, Tian Zhu, Brahman, Akal Purakh, Ra, Xwede, or Cao Dai might get mad at me if I show favoritism towards your god over them. Also, I feel that accepting Christ might interfere with my path to enlightenment and I will never become Buddha.

[Xard]

I have to say that after Christianity I greatly prefer buddhism in it's original, "pure" form.

[Calax]

Even if it wasn't true, which I assure you it is, what would be wrong with believing it for now and accepting Christ?

Elohim, Allah, Haile Selassie, Shiva, Zeus, Jupiter, the goddess, Gud, Shang Ti, Shen, Tian Zhu, Brahman, Akal Purakh, Ra, Xwede, or Cao Dai might get mad at me if I show favoritism towards your god over them. Also, I feel that accepting Christ might interfere with my path to enlightenment and I will never become Buddha.

aren't Jupiter, and Zues one and the same?

 

 

Atre, You haven't met asshat christians but you probably have met asshats who SAY they are christian when asked.

[Tale]

aren't Jupiter, and Zues one and the same?

 

 

Atre, You haven't met asshat christians but you probably have met asshats who SAY they are christian when asked.

Jupiter is the Roman counterpart for Zeus. I always think it's interesting to note that another name for Jupiter is Jove, which can correspond with the Jewish Yahweh and Jehova. And Zeus had an affinity for mating with human women, which sometimes resulted in children. I'm just sayin'!

 

Xard: Buddhism is nice. I'm a fan of Shintoism, it's just so nicely fantastic.

[Blank]

I believe Jesus was divine, and do not believe any evidence to the contrary. But at the same time, I cannot fault anyone who has a different view, and it is not my place to tell them they are facing eternal torment if they do not believe as I do. Because I do not KNOW that. No one but God can make that call.

This is something I more or less realized on these boards during a certain discussion. I think it was humbling for me, because I was posting like I had all the answers. God is the final Judge, so who am I to say someone is saved or not? I still think he has given us the answers with the Bible, but regardless of that, I hope he is really forgiving for all of our sakes.

I do not like cramming my faith down someone else's throat because it really is not my place to do so. The bible charges us to spread the word, but it it has been heard and rejected then there is nothing you can or should do. I seriously doubt that there is anyone on this board who has not been exposed to the Christian faith. If they have chosen not to follow, then they should not be badgered for it.

Yeah, sometimes I get a little overzealous when it is only required of me to "witness".

[Azure79]

I think I already posted this but this is my own personal take on life after death.

 

I am not sure whether there is some omnipotent celestial being that governs the totality of our existence and will be the final judge of all our actions.

 

If the path to salvation is only through the acceptance of Jesus, does that mean that all my ancestors who didn't even have any knowledge of Jesus are now undergoing torment or in some kind of purgatory? I am not sure how Christians explain this. Anyone care to enlighten me?

 

Anyways, I think we take our experiences with us when we die. Our soul or spirit drifts up to somewhere, and we're given some time to reflect on our actions and see the consequences of them. Our lives flashing before our eyes so to speak. I think there will be enlightened beings up there to help us on our way, answering our questions and offering insight.

 

I think we're given a choice. Either stay there for awhile, resting, talking to other souls and thinking, perhaps reaching a state of enlightenment or being born again on Earth...or any other planet. In essence going back to experience more. Of course we don't really know what kind of life we'll have, but that's part of the journey.

 

Our goal...is to reach a state of enlightenment and be at peace with ourselves.

 

Of course I don't know what that might be or what it might feel like.

 

I don't think that there is some SUPREME BEING that will say to me upon death, "Ok, you didn't follow my teaching or accept Jesus during your 80+(if I'm lucky) years of life in Earth. An eternity of torment for you."

 

And if there is, man I'm screwed.

[Omelette]

If the path to salvation is only through the acceptance of Jesus, does that mean that all my ancestors who didn't even have any knowledge of Jesus are now undergoing torment or in some kind of purgatory? I am not sure how Christians explain this. Anyone care to enlighten me?

 

Well, what I've heard from, before Christ died, when people deceased and no longer functioned, they were sent to a sort of purgatory, a holding place sort of. It's not a punishment at all, but a holding place to just keep their souls. So, when Jesus did go and sacrifice himself, God came down to this placed called Sheol, or Hades as some call it, and sort of took them up to heaven. He told them about his son, the plan, etcetera. They accepted Jesus or didn't, etcetera. Accept=Heaven, Denounce=Hell.

 

So, your ancestors, if they believed in a single God, and knew that there was but one God, were sent to Sheol and either accepted or denounced Christ and God's plan. So, they are not in Hell, as some would suspect. Your ancestors are as good as gold...as long as they accepted Jesus.

 

Hope that answered your question.

[Sand]

Yes, but what of those who never had any exposure to any aspects of the God of Abraham, like the Native American tribes prior colonization? Many Native American cultures venerate spirits, not gods per se, and polytheistic.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Sand

[Guard Dog]

I cannot answer for all Christians but THIS Christian will tell you "I have no idea". I stated before, I have no idea who goes to heaven or hell. I do not have the wisdom or perspective to judge another persons worth. I can not see in their hearts, I do not know their minds, and I do not even know the totality of anyone elses actions. So, I do not know who goes to heaven or not. All I can do is live my own life by the code I believe is right and in the end at least God could say I was not a hypocrite even if I was wrong on everything else.

 

I do believe there is more to it than most people think. As I poster earlier, how could a corrupted immoral Christian get into heaven is a loving sinless agnostic could not?

[Sand]

That is basically how I run my life but then again I do have whims that shifts one behavioral extreme to another, which can seem hypocritical to those observing. Bleh...

 

In any case from all accounts Heaven sounds like a dull place. Hell sounds like a place to avoid. I think I prefer to be in the middle here on Earth after I die. Find a good place to haunt.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Sand

[Azure79]

That is basically how I run my life but then again I do have whims that shifts one behavioral extreme to another, which can seem hypocritical to those observing. Bleh...

 

In any case from all accounts Heaven sounds like a dull place. Hell sounds like a place to avoid. I think I prefer to be in the middle here on Earth after I die. Find a good place to haunt.

 

 

The Obsidian Entertainment Building?

 

I can imagine the stories now.

 

Obsidian employees start hearing voices late in the night during crunch time. A ghostly wail that implores them to make more character customization options at character creation with detailed parameters in height and width options.

 

[Blank]

Here's the Protestant standpoint. There are multiple places in the Bible that mention Abraham's faith in God as being accredited to him as righteousness. This fact allows others to have the same privilege. Jesus is still the way we are saved, it just takes faith though. And not just faith like believing God exists, because James 2:19 says even the demons believe, and shudder.

 

Galatians 3:6-9

"Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.'

So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. "

 

Genesis 15:6 "Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." (The source verse)

 

Romans 4:9 "Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." (circumcised meaning Jews, uncircumcised meaning non-Jews, aka gentiles, the ones who weren't chosen initially as God's people. The point in this passage is to say that not only are the chosen people blessed, everyone else is blessed by Jesus, if they have faith.)

 

So I think Jesus is the means to an end. If you are on some remote island, but have faith that God is good and will save you somehow, I don't know how this is any different than saying God will save me with Jesus. The faith is credited as righteousness, according to these verses.

 

And to tie up any loose ends, Romans 1:20, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Edited March 22, 2007 by Blank

[Sand]

Aren't those invisible quantities seeable now with current technology such as the electron telescope?

[Atreides]

I have to say that after Christianity I greatly prefer buddhism in it's original, "pure" form.

To me, there are 2 parts of Buddhism. The philosophical part which is cool (how to lead your life) and the religious part which has assumptions on the afterlife/reincarnation, karma accounting, the laws over karma accounting and interaction with spirits etc. Anyone who says Buddhism is just a philosophy and not a religion is kidding you.

[Blank]

Aren't those invisible quantities seeable now with current technology such as the electron telescope?

Some of them, yes.

[Azure79]

And to tie up any loose ends, Romans 1:20, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

 

What is the Bible referring to here? Is it the natural world that surrounds us? What kind of divine nature has been clearly seen?

[Blank]

I'm not giving definite proof, but the fact that there is religion all around the world shows that people recognize there is something more to life than on this earth, but it has sadly been perverted by sin. The verse is saying that when you look at creation, you can see some qualities of God, and that that is enough evidence to make men have no excuse for living in sin.